zedvictor4

Blah de blah de blah GOD...Is the whole point of the O.A.

And as such, no real problem as a philosophical exercise.

But not to be taken as some sort of definitive proof of a GOD.

As a maximally great being,  could be anything or nothing at all.

Agree.

Agree.

Me neither

But I see change as inevitable and therefore I don't fret about it.....I'll be beyond caring soon enough.

As I said...In your opinion.

Whether or not material creation is or isn't perfect, is perhaps not for us to know.....Though the very fact of material creation, suggests that perfection or not,  doesn't really come into it.

Hi Doc.

You generalizing within a narrow time frame, in respect of a specific cause.

Same principle applies to the slavery issue...For some people slavery is a one time event....With only one specific group of people to blame.

Nope.

I would suggest that you are being deliberately intransigent in respect of a cause.

The dictionary defines words separately....So subjective + morality will be as defined irrespective of your point of view....Same goes for objective + morality.

You must understand that not everyone agrees with your personally subjective principles.

Nonetheless...In either respect, morality is always internally processed data, rather than a universal constant.

You're clever enough to understand the principle of vaccination.

So irrespective of methodology the body produces antibodies.

The obvious difference between vaccination over nature in respect of Covid-19, is that the latter is potentially far riskier.

And I certainly agree that lifestyle influences health

"And death is inevitable"....Yep an inevitable side effect/consequence of life.

And vaccination is a factor of medical intervention in general......Which all in all, has led to a significantly increased human life expectancy.....There's no denying the fact.

Yep.

It is self explanatory.

Use the dictionary that you are so fond of and apply subjective to morality.

The same principle would apply to objective morality.

But as I've often stated....The difficulty arises when one attempts to differentiate between subjective and objective in respect of process.

Irrespective of what a dictionary might say, we nonetheless run all data through our processing units before we issue a response.

All data output therefore  has a level of subjectivity to it.

Easy to say and easy to assume I suppose.

Such is how we are conditioned .

I would suggest that it is you, who actually orchestrates.....And you just assume, or prefer to believe that it is an outside influence.

Subjective morality is subjective morality......Self explanatory as it were.

And objective morality is like having an opinion about the magic in Harry Potter.

As for Greek myths and legends....Well, myths and legends have a tendency to be controversial....(See the Bible and similar regional myths and legends).

@RatMan.

China's political "aspects" have always been comparatively absurd.

Who knows what purpose might or might not lie beyond today and your fears.

The future is bright, but the future might not necessarily be American....or Chinese for that matter.

Unfortunately..... Guns  + testosterone does not = common sense....That's disregarding the prime motivators which are, wealth and power.

People are basically, still almost as stupid as they ever were.

Or perhaps that's how things were designed to be.

Can you explain?

The intent of an author is to inform or entertain by providing a narrative product for your entertainment and/or information.

How said information is input and assessed  is entirely down to you.....Your own intent.

The determination to experience, based upon specific literature, is ones own arbitrary decision, and not the decision of the author.

Nonetheless, do you agree that your experiences are wholly, internally motivated?

All helps.

But if someone offered you antibiotics for a tooth abscess or medication for hypertension etc etc....Would you refuse?

Why the downer on a vaccination to protect against a possibly fatal viral infection.

And death is the side effect of life.

If you weren't alive you wouldn't die....Simple.

And life is what we strive to prolong, and death is what we strive to put off.

And statistics prove that medical intervention increases life expectancy.

The side effect of life is death.

But we take the risk any way.

Today we can reasonably expect to live for 75 years......All largely, down to vaccination and other medical advances.

A couple of hundred years ago, you were lucky if you made it to adulthood.

@RatMan.

The force that pulls us down is known as Gravity.

That idea and that word, were thought up long before NASA and the USA were.

It's 20th century conspiracies, that need your explanation.

It is as simple as that...but not as easy as that.

And it's easy to sit back and say that.

Motivating from a position of poverty, is not the same as expecting motivation from a position of security.

Notwithstanding exceptions to the rule.....Security breeds security and poverty breeds poverty.....Based on a predesignated distribution of wealth and aspiration.

Should have tried harder isn't particularly helpful.

Nonetheless, success and survival of the fittest and brightest is perhaps how things are meant to be.

And it's probably necessary that the fittest and brightest to keep dangling the carrots of achievement.

Evolution as it were.

You will probably not agree.

But all the above just emphasises to me the fact, that what you regard as a religious experience, is as you put it, your own "intent" and not the intent of  a GOD.

Which in itself is undoubtedly an experience....Though the stimulus is yourself and your own ideas of a GOD, rather than an actual GOD. 

All true I expect.

I'm not necessarily knocking skill and good visual  modern art.

I'm questioning what actually is art....Is it as much the thought as it is the end result.....Perhaps even more so.

Christo's wrappings for example, were no doubt visually impressive....And though Christo had the ideas and pointed the finger,  the installations were the work of a team of skilful engineers......So who actually created the artwork?....And who will be remembered for doing so?

Money is.

A non-existent representative system, of assumptive value.

Tax is no longer.

A bag of corn.

Or a pouch of gold.

Or a bundle of paper.

Tax is now rendered to.

Ones and noughts.

And so the USA has a multi-trillion dollar national debt.

So what?

Who do they owe it to?

Martians?

And people will either live or die.

Same as it ever was.

Mush rendered to dust.

As money is rendered to.

Technological indifference.

Elon's got

More important things to do

Than you, TheUnderdog.

Utopia is perhaps non-organic.

And China is only China when viewed from the Earth.

Viewed from elsewhere it is the same speck of cosmic dust.

But of course Americans have GOD on their side......Smile.

And China is as much a victim of it's own success, as The USA is.

Though China still has the advantage of millions of people with a bowl of rice and a uniform mentality.

I admire much more, stoic Russian  indifference.

@RatMan.

What's the purpose of the big conspiracy.....Other than a big conspiracy.

You can judge a philosophical ideology by it's intentions, and communism in theory is Utopic.

But communism descends into chaos and non-communism, the moment it hits the streets.

Because people, simply are not equal.

I'm not sure if there has ever been a truly effective non-hierarchical social system.

Can you think of one?

The USSR  and China for example, never have been communist states in practice....Only falsely so on paper.

How do you differentiate precisely, between a religious experience and euphoria?

So can you precisely define a "religious experience after reading scripture or other religious material"?

It clearly doesn't make you intensely excited and happy (euphoric).....So how does if make you feel?

What is the difference between the input and assessment of religious data, and the input and assessment of any other written narrative?

Birth Life Death....Including suffering......Such is what it is to be human.....That is the problem.

How can something necessary be evil?

And can something be unnecessarily good?

Though I suppose that one persons good  can be another persons evil and vice versa....In this situation how does one apply standard definition to two separately occurring sets,  of diametrical opposites.

Definition would appear to  become personal and arbitrary......And though one would undoubtedly, base a judgement on self-righteousness....So also, would the other.

As I said...Self induced euphoria.

Unless you mean some other form of self induced experience.....But let's not go into that.

And certain  "Westerners" have a  tendency to regard  mystical "Eastern" terminology as somehow being more meaningful.

I like the word rapture....I always think that it perfectly describes the zenith of positive  physiological sensations.

If rapture is the zenith.......Then what would be the nadir?..........Desolation perhaps.

Thing is though.

Anything can unskilfully be presented as art.

The success of the artwork is more dependant on the academic and social credentials of the artist, rather than their artistic skill.

Take a pile of bricks for example....Something that any Bob the builder, could do quite adeptly.

The question is....Is Art the end result.....Or the formulation and consequent manifestation of a concept .

Nonetheless, any Tom, Dick or Harriet can formulate a concept and produce an accompanying artwork.

For example...I just had the idea of standing two saucepans one on top of the other and calling it Onwards to Victory.......Would that be Art or Scam?

Or  to be taken seriously.......Do I require a BA degree, and need to be exhibited in all the right places and be seen by all the right people.

We've been busily replacing ourselves at the top of the evolutionary tree for quite a while now.

And younger generations are already slaves to technology.

So it's logical to expect that Alternative Intelligence will eventually take over.

Apologies....But the term "religious experience" made me smile.

But I would suggest that both assumptions/reactions, are in fact the same thing...A self induced physiological response to a favourable stimulus.

In other words,....Brain chemistry.

An actual GOD isn't necessary at all.......You are quite capable of instigating stimuli and producing  experiences, all by your self.

A tad arrogant perhaps?

No one knows what actually happened 1900 years ago.

The Irish were largely ethnically cleansed by potatoes, or a lack thereof.

And then all those minority Europeans went to the New World and ethnically cleansed all those native types, who "owned " 100% of the land. ( If it is actually possible to own land?.....I would suggest that land ownership is only ever temporary)

And the Irish are and were the Irish....And I think what you are referring to was largely Irish Religious cleansing, by the Irish.

In a broader historical context...The U.K. Is a derivation of multiple, European and wider influences.

It's just that people such as yourself like to focus on recent History and attribute blame inaccurately and disproportionately.

After all the Romans are to blame for Catholicism...And Various Arabians are to blame for other religious variations thereof.

And Northern Ireland remains largely populated by the Irish, but nonetheless, nowadays influenced by more recent global migratory trends.

But Doc......Is there such a thing as a perfect GOD.

Other than in your opinion, of course.

Or one could always go to an alternative site and have a frank and open discussion with Harikrish and Ethang5....LOL

True.

Sheep are reliant on the mob.

But easily persuaded by the dog.

Culture doesn't go Doc.........It just evolves.

Same in Russia.

What you mean is....You personally haven't or don't want to keep up with 21st century values and liberal ideas.

You're what is colloquially known as an old fart...... Me too probably.

Though if people want to cut of their penises and call themselves Daphne, doesn't  worry me in the slightest.

As long as it's not made compulsory.

Stringing words together is something that humans do.....And as long as they are recognised as being grammatically coherent...Then they may well constitute a sound narrative.

Though that is not to say that a sound narrative necessarily. represents a sound theoretical narrative.

Blah de blah de blah so therefore GOD......You might as well just say GOD....Because we're all  already pretty much clued up on the GOD principle.....The philosophical BS, is largely unnecessary, save for the justification of largely unnecessary philosophers.

And I agree.... No one really gives a toss about the O.A.....Save for on philosophically obscure occasions such as this.

Acceptance of a GOD principle is one thing, but belief in something specific and unknowable is another.

And  an Internally consistent worldview....What does that actually mean?

Internal to an individual perhaps.....Well programming is such, that acquired and stored data, becomes consistent.....Especially formatively acquired data.....In other words, what you are taught to accept as belief, will generally stay with you.

Hence you think one thing and call it belief....And I think another, and refer to it as an acceptable principle.

We're not miles apart.....But for me, the myth of the Bible stories is what it is.....The same as any other creation myth.....A human creation idea embellished with  human based  fantasy characters.......GODS made in a preconditioned image.

Old GODS  evolved into Tales from Arabia...Right place, right time...And so the perpetuation of the data evolved into a variety of  similarly theistic, semi-consistent, worldwide, super-naturally embellished creation hypotheses....Religions.

And dependant upon where when and how formative programming is applied, will pretty much guarantee how one will turn out. ...And those that manage to avoid such conditioning, will either remain sceptical or  be susceptible to social influence.

And you will not agree with any of this, because you were taught not to agree.

And I will not accept accept Tales from Arabia as anything other than Tales from Arabia.

GOD principle remains sound and consistent.....Call it BIG BOOM call it Geoff.

Singing, dancing, praying, chanting,  head nodding, kneeling on the floor mumbling , incense swinging, water splashing etc etc.......Are a meaningful, yet meaningless way of accepting the GOD principle and passing the time of day.

Or one can just give it a momentary thought, and then get on with other meaningfully meaningless distractions.

What is a religious experience?

The Bible tends to make me yawn with indifference....Is that what you mean?

And Jehovah's Witness  booklets make me smile....All those smartly dressed people stroking tigers in paradise.

Perhaps some people shudder with delight.

One would hope that all republicans are democrats.

Though Trump et al, did briefly toy with the idea of mob rule.

Communism is the perfect utopian ideology.

But unfortunately communism is also a fundamentally flawed ideology, that fails to take human nature into account.

The teaching of scripture is why you are a Christian.

The teaching of other religious texts is why others consider themselves to be  variously and differently theistic.

I wasn't taught to be theistic, so I am not inclined to accept religious texts as  being entirely factual.

The key to perpetual  theism, is in the teaching.

Not post bake....Everything becomes cake.

It's not the winning but the taking part.

And the after race party was fun

And Mr hare enjoyed his nap.

And Mr Tortoise went home and slept for 3 months.

And ingredients are baked into a Cake....But all that we can logically extrapolate is Cake.

Do you like my metaphor? 

Madman, Old Girl.

You are definitely gender confused Mr Parrot.

And power corrupts....Always. 

Neither can theists show proof.......Other than...It was GOD what did it.

Seemingly miraculous things do not  automatically imply the existence of a Christian GOD,  or any other GOD variant.

A 1 in 10 billion chance is not necessarily a miracle, but more likely to be either luck or not quite accurate.

And those that wish to believe in theistically inspired miracles, inevitably will.

And those that are less likely to be influenced by theistic persuasion, probably won't.

Same old, same old.

Throughout, I maintain the acceptance of a GOD principle.

The Bible however, is a book about men of Arabia written by men of Arabia.

A region heavily influenced by Mediterranean, North African and Asian cultures...... So it's no wonder that a home grown creation hypothesis is GOD based.

And let's be honest,  hypothetical GODS were  a global tradition......The simplest and most logical  contemporary solution, in the absence of anything better.

So Tales from Arabia, will inevitably be interwoven with the antics of this home grown supernatural creator....As was and is the tradition of creation myths.

Nonetheless the GOD principle is sound, but the accompanying human antics and reverential rhetoric are not necessarily necessary to such a simple hypothesis.

If an actual specific singular GOD does exist......Then it's concerns will far exceed the ramblings and naivety of a few men of Arabia.

The fact that Arabian myths continue to be perpetuated around the Word is a testament to human predictability, rather than a testament to the human ability to understand the GOD principle.

Nicely quoted.