Instigator / Pro
0
1468
rating
3
debates
0.0%
won
Topic

Recognising a trans man as a man is neither beneficial nor factually correct.

Status
Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

Voting points
0
5

With 5 votes and 5 points ahead, the winner is ...

Intelligence_06
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Science
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Two days
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One month
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Contender / Con
5
1671
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62
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Description
~ 105 / 5,000

A man is a man.

Also, I would like it if someone who is top 20 took this debate as yk, I'm a bit of pro

Round 1
Pro
Another debate with Intel! Should be very interesting. 

To confirm, my main contention is as follows; Recognising a trans man as a man is neither beneficial nor factually correct.

I will be dividing my argument into two section, which will deconstruct the two main parts attached to the statement. In the first segment, I will adopt a conversation like tone which aims to debunk what Tran's individuals will say in response to my statements. 

Foreword 

In society, thephrase “men are not women” is now considered a discriminatory phrase. The New YorkPost [1] [2] reports that a pre-school teachers in Brooklyn are forced to teach,according to their curriculum that

“everybodyhas the right to choose their own gender, by listening to their own hearts andmind, everyone gets to choose whether they are a boy or a girl or neither orsomething else”.
This is what5-year-olds, with their malleable and unexperienced little minds are learning at atime where they are figuring out their own identity and the people around them.This is a rapidly growing issue being promoted by the government and it needsto be stopped. The only way is the confront this ideology head on. Thankfully,this is not too difficult, as I know that men are not women. How do I knowthis? Because of biology and common sense. If men were women then the term menand women would just be blank names, conveniently interchangeable like a pairof socks. To suggest that women can be men takes away the value of being eitherand proposes that gender is just like a costume, something that can be changed.If men were women, then the term might as well not exist. In the following paragraphs, discuss why recognising a trans man as a man is neither beneficial nor factually correct. 

Section 1: Factual Correctness

Claim: Sex isbiological, and gender is in the mind
Trans ideologist are very keen to point at the dictionary and WHO to confirm that gender and sex are different. However, this is where the textbook and logic prevails. Although the WHO states that gender and sex are different, they do not acknowledge the logistical difficulties in separating the two terms. Unknowingly, they contradict themselves in policies which I will mention in later paragraph. 

To deconstruct a trans ideologist argument, I must first deconstruct the premise of which they stand on. 

The term gender identity was first coined bysexologist John Money [3], who introduced the term in 1955 (It is worth nothingthat recent academic studies disapprove of Money’s work in many respects,particularly his involvement with the involuntary sex-reassignment of thenchild, David Reimer). According to the Australian Government website (I am aware you are from the US, but I would assume the definitions doesn't stray too far from what follows)

“[Sexis] the chromosomal, gonadal and anatomical characteristics associated withbiological sex while [gender is] apart of a person’s personal and social identity. It refers to the way a personfeels, presents and is recognised in the community”

Their are some logistical issues in this statement. First off, if gender is just something which occurs inthe mind, and your gender disagrees with your sex, then why can’t you justchange your mind. Surely it would be more logical to change your mind, insteadof going through intense surgery and pumping yourself with hormones. On top of the pain which one may have to suffer through transitioning, making gender a thing of the mind is dangerous, as this would mean that it is only restricted by the capacity of your brain. In other words, I can change my gender as quickly as my brain can process information, and as many times as I please. 

However,one may reply with “you can’t just change your gender like that, it’s more thanjust a feeling, it’s something to do with your brain, it’s been with me since ayoung age”, and then proceed to pointing to the grey matter in a series of MRI scans.

There’s a flaw with this reasoning, because if trans ideologist are pointing to brain scans toconfirm the existence of gender, then gender must be biological, thereforeshattering the difference between gender and sex. Either A) gender is in the mind and therefore I have the ability to change my gender as many times as I please, or B) gender is biological, removing my ability to change my gender as many times as I please. 

Without this distinctionbetween sex and gender, a large number of trans ideologists argumentsinstantly go out the window.

One such is the argument that “We are justchanging our sex to match our gender”, which solely relies and this weak distinction.

Another logistical issue with self-identification is the question of whatexactly it take for someone to identify as the opposite sex. According totrans ideologists and the WHO, gender is completely mind, so I can technically be a fullyfunctioning male with all my organs and appendages and call myself a women. Sincetrans ideologists believe that sex and gender and completely disconnected, thenmy gender can be female while my sex is a male. I can have access to women’sbathrooms, changing facilities, sports events, join the girl scouts and the Australian Mothers Facebook group, all while being a male.

However, the contradictions run even further. In Victoria, on justiceconnect.org.com [4],there is a very different procedure in changing your gender. Under the subtitle“How to change the gender on your birth certificate” the criteria to changeyour gender on your birth certificate is as follows

“youhave undergone “sex affirmation” surgery. The law defines this as a surgical procedure involving the alteration of a person’s reproductiveorgans carried out for the purpose of assisting the person to be considered tobe a member of the opposite sex”

By this definition, there is a direct link betweengender and sex. Why is this the case? Legally, in order to have your gender changed, you need to gothrough sex reassignment surgery. However, according to a trans ideologists, sexreassignment surgery should technically not be necessary, as gender has nothingto do with your brain, internal organs, external organs, appendages, skeletal system, muscularsystem, chromosomes, bone structure, reproductive capabilities, vocal cords,body hair, brain size, or sensory systems. It's all just follow your heart and let your mind roam free stuff. Initially, according to WHO gender wascompletely in the head, and now, sex reassignment surgery is required to changeyour gender. What happened to sex and gender being independent of each other?

Of course, this is notwhere the contradictions end. On one hand, we are told that gender is just asocial construct [5], something which has no intrinsic value and is something whichhas nothing to do to with biology. On the other hand, we are told that we areborn with certain features which make up our gender, and that these factors areso important that people who suffer from gender dysphoria have to undergoextensive and expensive surgery’s in order to bring their physical appearancein line with what they believe. It is also worth noting that these statementsare repeated by the same people.

These two statements cannot be true at once,either gender is intrinsically valuable and unchangeable, or gender is just asocial contract which can be switched around like batteries. If trans peoplereally believe that gender is in the mind and malleable, then what’s the needfor the surgery and hormone therapy? Just say you are the gender you want andbe done? Clearly, they believe that biology has some influence on gender, asthey go to great extents to mimic their chosen gender.

Even if we give thebenefit of the doubt to these people and say that gender is just a thing of themind (it’s not), then what exactly does it take to become the opposite gender? How canone come to the conclusion that they are born the wrong gender? The wholeargument is circular. I believe that I know what it feels like to be a womenbecause I feel like a women so therefore, I am a women. It’s a fallacy. How cana man know that they are a women? What exactly consists of feeling like awomen? And even if, given the benefit of the doubt, one was to know that theyfelt like a women, why does that make them a women, why can’t they just be afeminine male? This is a key point which I will revisit when discussing the productivity of calling a trans man a man. 
 
After being forcedto acknowledge that gender and sex are the same thing, a trans ideologist may statethat “there is evidence that trans women’s brains are more like women’sbrains”. However, this is false. Trans ideologist love to say this but it is just 100% false. The only difference between a male andfemales’ brain is that a male’s brain is larger, just like how a male’s kidneyis usually larger than a females. There is no such thing as a “gendered brain”.Professor Rippon, a British professor emeritus of cognitive neuroimaging, statesthat[6];

“There’snothing which I have found that would allow you to compare two brain images andsay, ‘well that’s a man and that’s a woman’. It’s not physically possible tosay there is a male or female brain"
A trans ideologist maypoint to multiple studies outlining the difference in wiring between the maleand female brain. Although this is true, it is important to know where thedifference arises.  Adopting the nature vsnature scenario, the difference in wiring comes from the nurture factor. A baby’sbrain is like an empty canvas, it can become whatever you instil upon it. Theoretically,if you were to raise a boy like a girl, they would identify themselves as agirl. Dr. Lise Eliot, a neuroscience professor at Rosalind Franklin Universityof Medicine and Science [7], states that

“There’sreally nothing about the brain at birth that tells us boys and girls aredestined to be psychologically different,” Dr Eliot said
Armed with this knowledge, we can come to theconclusion that the male and female brain begin mostly the same and are affectedby the environment they are put in and the way their guardians parent them.

Infact, no where in the human brain are people conditioned to even think like humans.Sujit Kumar, is a Fijian man who proves this. Sujit, a man who does not knowhow to speak, stand or walk, spent his childhood locked in a chicken coop. Hehad developed all the characteristics of a chicken. He waddled around in acrouched position and specked at his food. His fingers were turned inwards fromscratching around in the dirt, and he communicated by emitting clicking noiseswith his tongue. When psychologists found him, Sujit seemed not to be aware orbothered by the human presence. Now, according a trans ideologists, if Sujit,caught up in his own belief that he was a chicken, somehow communicated to surgeonsthat he wanted to undergo surgery, not only would that be a human right, but heliterally become a chicken. What is the difference? Both a trans individual andSujit suffer from the experience of being something they are not. That’s thekey. Something that they are not.

However, a trans-ideologist, however, may say“But our brains actually match what we believe, Sujit does not have a chicken’sbrain”. To that I reply, the brain is just another organ. If an intersex malehad a single organ out of line, they would not be defined by that single organ,they would go by the rest of their anatomy. So why are trans people notclassified as intersex people with a single organ out of line? Most transpeople transition from faultless and functioning bodies to the opposite sexjust to satisfy a single organ. In fact, studies involving trans patients oftenyield non consistent and mixed results even about the brain. Such studies include the one conducted in 2013 led by Antonio Guillamon. The study, where researchers analysed the MRI scansof 94 subjects, found that the total cortical thickness of both transgenderwomen (biological male) and men were more similar to that of cis women thanthat of cis men. [8]
 
And what’s more, they force people to believepeople to buy into their delusions and not doing so will be considered a hatecrime. In Canada, Bill C-16 categorises misgendering “hate speech”, “harassment”and “discrimination”. If that doesn’t worry you, read it until it does. Callinga man a man is now a crime.


Section 2: Unproductivity

After all the shenanigans, the least one could expect would be some happiness from the trans individuals. Nope. 

The most recognised cohort study on transgender suicide conducted in Sweden[9],suggests quite the opposite. In short, the study gave results which showedthat

Theoverall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularlydeath from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned personsalso had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) andpsychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controlsmatched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but notmale-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than theirrespective birth sex controls.
And concluded that;
Personswith transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks formortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the generalpopulation.

Conclusion
A man is a man. Calling a man a women yields results one would expect. Suicide. 


Sources
 






Con
BoP
It became clear that Pro's resolution is arguing both of these:
  • Recognizing a Transgender male(Female-to-male) as a male is
    • Not correct
    • Not productive
Pro must prove both of these in order to win. It is a harder feat to complete than for Con which suffices with disproving one of them.

My points
However, for 9.9.9 has given me enough character counts to make me argue as much as I could possibly write(I have never filled anything above 10000), I will attempt to argue both of these points below.
  • Recognizing a trans male as a male is
    • Factually Correct
    • Indeed productive
Wish the best of luck to both of us.

Rebuttals

My opponent stated:
There’s a flaw with this reasoning, because if trans ideologist are pointing to brain scans toconfirm the existence of gender, then gender must be biological, thereforeshattering the difference between gender and sex. Either A) gender is in the mind and therefore I have the ability to change my gender as many times as I please, or B) gender is biological, removing my ability to change my gender as many times as I please. 
There's a flaw with this reasoning, because if my opponent concludes that gender is indeed "biological" because it is in the brain, it is still in the thought. With that I could basically conclude that all man-made stuff are natural because they are a part of the nature, such as the wood benches in Yellowstone National Park in WY, USA. However, there are significant differences between gender and sex.
  • Sex is determined by genitals, whereas Gender is determined by the mind
  • Sex can be seen externally whereas Gender is not
  • Sex could not be controlled by the mind whereas Gender could(Supposedly, which many transgenders change their sex based on gender)
There are more about those. Just remember one thing: Sex is controlled by the presence of genitals and gender is controlled by the mind.

In fact, even a scientific(supposedly) article argues that there are differences between sex and gender[1]. Gender is based on social constructs, of whether you identify as a male or not based on behavior. Plus, is there anything wrong for a man wanting to look like a woman? Oh there is? I will address it later in this argument. Gender is one's identity in the mind, for supposedly if my brain(I have a penis, balls, and I use he/him pronouns, I am a cisgender male) is transferred to a woman's body, then the ideal condition for my growth would be to transition into my preferred gender physically, because the mind is separate from the body. There are studies, for example, that shows the mind is not the same thing as the body, in fact they are can be treated as separate.

[2] Subjectively, YES. Since gender is determined by the self(Note: Gendering yourself as your physical sex is possibly the way of the majority, but they aren't equivalent nonetheless. That is why we have trans people), it is basically the mind doing the gendering, not the body. This is the same argument of that "If you are in the US, you have to be a US citizen!", However, I am a Chinese Citizen who lived in the United States, and although I am physically in the US, Mind-wise I identify as a Chinese. If we know that subjectively the mind =/= the body, then assimilating the mind to the body we are attached to would be an absurd idea.

(Also, it is possible to retain memory even within transferring. Therefore the mind could be non-consistent with the body, meaning gender could be a separate thing from sex[3])

Moving on.

“There’snothing which I have found that would allow you to compare two brain images andsay, ‘well that’s a man and that’s a woman’. It’s not physically possible tosay there is a male or female brain"
A trans ideologist maypoint to multiple studies outlining the difference in wiring between the maleand female brain. Although this is true, it is important to know where thedifference arises.  Adopting the nature vsnature scenario, the difference in wiring comes from the nurture factor. A baby’sbrain is like an empty canvas, it can become whatever you instil upon it. Theoretically,if you were to raise a boy like a girl, they would identify themselves as agirl. Dr. Lise Eliot, a neuroscience professor at Rosalind Franklin Universityof Medicine and Science [7], states that

“There’sreally nothing about the brain at birth that tells us boys and girls aredestined to be psychologically different,” Dr Eliot said
This is self-refuting on the side of Pro. If we can't even biologically tell if a male mind is different from a female mind, gender-wise instead of sex, then there shouldn't even be the sense of gender at all. If we can't even tell a male mind from a female one, then what is the point of bashing some people of whatever they think, given that what they think is as harmless as others, and fundamentally non-different?

Without the biological aspect of "gender", separate from "sex", then the answer is one: There is no point in bashing trans people. It is either you hate them personally or something I don't know, because they harmed nobody.

Another logistical issue with self-identification is the question of whatexactly it take for someone to identify as the opposite sex. According totrans ideologists and the WHO, gender is completely mind, so I can technically be a fullyfunctioning male with all my organs and appendages and call myself a women. Sincetrans ideologists believe that sex and gender and completely disconnected, thenmy gender can be female while my sex is a male. I can have access to women’sbathrooms, changing facilities, sports events, join the girl scouts and the Australian Mothers Facebook group, all while being a male.
This is the same as saying "Donald Trump is not permitted to enter the white house because it could be his impostors". Again, if we could just "believe" whatever we want, are we really believing what we said we are believing in? If a man says "he is a woman" just to get into the woman's bathroom and have sex, is he really a woman? No. Denying a group of people because their impostors could be a net harm to society is absurd.

These two statements cannot be true at once,either gender is intrinsically valuable and unchangeable, or gender is just asocial contract which can be switched around like batteries. If trans peoplereally believe that gender is in the mind and malleable, then what’s the needfor the surgery and hormone therapy? Just say you are the gender you want andbe done? Clearly, they believe that biology has some influence on gender, asthey go to great extents to mimic their chosen gender.

Even if we give thebenefit of the doubt to these people and say that gender is just a thing of themind (it’s not), then what exactly does it take to become the opposite gender? How canone come to the conclusion that they are born the wrong gender? The wholeargument is circular. I believe that I know what it feels like to be a womenbecause I feel like a women so therefore, I am a women. It’s a fallacy. How cana man know that they are a women? What exactly consists of feeling like awomen? And even if, given the benefit of the doubt, one was to know that theyfelt like a women, why does that make them a women, why can’t they just be afeminine male? This is a key point which I will revisit when discussing the productivity of calling a trans man a man. 
There is currently no physical equipment, but psychologically, one expertising in this area can possibly tell whether if this "man" really believes he is a woman or he is just a cis man PRETENDING he is a woman. There are differences between the two. The former would be more welcome to do a surgery as he is desperate for having the body of a female. I agree, Trans folks would be more authentic as transgender if they did the surgery, but you cannot deny one psychologically if they are "transgender" or not.


On the other hand, we are told that we areborn with certain features which make up our gender,
That is untrue, as our body determines our sex, not our gender. Our mind makes up that as the Mind is essentially separate from the body.

To that I reply, the brain is just another organ. If an intersex malehad a single organ out of line, they would not be defined by that single organ,they would go by the rest of their anatomy. So why are trans people notclassified as intersex people with a single organ out of line?
Why aren't gay people classified as straight people that love their own gender? They are different. Intersex people with a single organ out of line is the Sex that is different, unlike the Gender. It is called Transgender, not Transsex. There is a reason for that.


The most recognised cohort study on transgender suicide conducted in Sweden[9],suggests quite the opposite. In short, the study gave results which showedthat

Theoverall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularlydeath from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned personsalso had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) andpsychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controlsmatched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but notmale-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than theirrespective birth sex controls.
And concluded that;
Personswith transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks formortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the generalpopulation.
On the other hand, Trans people have reported no less quality of life, etc. Calling a Trans individual their preferred gender does not make them suicide, instead the discrimination upon them does[4], as stated:
Intersecting minority identities increases suicide risk. Multiple studies have found that transgender people of color are at higher risk of suicide than white transgender people. This is a result of the combined effects of racial and gender identity discrimination.
If we call everyone by their biological sex as gender, then suicide rates could be even higher. If we accept them truly as their preferred gender, genuinely, then suicide rates wouldn't be higher. Recognising a trans man as a man is more productive, after all.


Round 2
Pro
Forfeited
Con
My points are unrefuted. Extend as they still work. Vote Con.
Round 3
Pro
Forfeited
Con
Recap of everything
  • Calling an FTM(Female-to-male Transgender) Male a male would be correct.
    • The mind is separate from the body.
    • Gender is in the mind and is harder to change than the body.
      • As a result, one's gender is not restricted to the body.
      • One can change its sex for the sake of the gender and denying it would be absurd.
      • Changing one's gender infinitely would be an absurd concern.
      • Psychologically one can determine if one is really trans or if he is just acting.
      • If one thinks he is a male looking like a female, he really is a male, for that gender =/= sex.
    • There is no point in misgendering trans people considering their brain is what you are dealing with, which is the quarters of the gender, not sex. Calling them by their sex would be misgendering.
    • If there is no difference between a male and a female mind, then let the trans people believe what they shall believe because what difference are they gonna make otherwise, just on gender?
    • Transgender is not Transsex. The former would be one's gender does not align with the sex while the latter is one's body does not align with the genitalia(For example, a biological male who is really a female would be transgender, and a cisgender female with breasts and proper proportions of a female but has a penis would be, in this case, a transsex).
  • Calling an FTM Male a male would be productive and beneficial.
    • An article suggests that the reason trans people commit suicide more is because discrimination, in other words, calling them like Pro does.
    • In this logic, misgendering them less would reduce discrimination, which in turn reduces suicide rates.
    • So, calling them by their preferred gender pronouns would be beneficial.
  • Pro forfeited two out of three rounds, making Con the victor here.
    • Please vote Con.