Instigator / Pro
0
1468
rating
3
debates
0.0%
won
Topic
#2534

Recognising a trans man as a man is neither beneficial nor factually correct.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Winner
0
5

After 5 votes and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...

Intelligence_06
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Winner selection
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
5
1731
rating
167
debates
73.05%
won
Description

A man is a man.

Also, I would like it if someone who is top 20 took this debate as yk, I'm a bit of pro

-->
@Intelligence_06

“ Psychologically one can determine if one is really trans or if he is just acting.”

Actually no. (Good) Psychologists don’t really do this, and the (best of the) trans community doesn’t either. There’s no litmus test for trans.

When someone comes out as trans, we celebrate and believe them. Sometimes they change their minds later on. No matter, we celebrate their freedom to explore themselves.

Identity is more important that what someone is arbitrarily assigned at birth. There’s no wrong way to be trans. We simply believe and respect how people want to identify.

-->
@Intelligence_06

“ I agree, Trans folks would be more authentic as transgender if they did the surgery”

That’s a big no-no I’m afraid. We are equally valid regardless of what our bodies look like.

-->
@Theweakeredge

Damn, you’re right! I thought you were in this debate lol

-->
@Kbub530

I think you're confusing me for the actual CON in this debate, I definitely don't agree with those positions, and have hopefully shown that I understand that within my forum. The top of the page has who is who, I did not participate in this debate.

-->
@Kbub530

Intelligence was Con in this debate, not Theweakeredge.

-->
@Theweakeredge

“ I agree, Trans folks would be more authentic as transgender if they did the surgery”
Is from your first response to 9.9.9

“Psychologically one can determine if one is really trans or if he is just acting.”
Is from your last round

-->
@Kbub530

I agree with your points and have no idea where you are getting those quotes, I definitely do not remember posting them, and disagree with them.

Those are not things I have ever, remember at least, saying. Could you link where you go those quotes? I was just agreeing that Con wasn't transphobic, not to what they actually said in the debate. I haven't read all of it, and while I would agree with their side, I wouldn't know if I agreed with everything they said.

-->
@Theweakeredge

“Psychologically one can determine if one is really trans or if he is just acting.”

Actually no. (Good) Psychologists don’t really do this, and the (best of the) trans community doesn’t either. There’s no litmus test for trans.

When someone comes out as trans, we celebrate and believe them. Sometimes they change their minds later on. No matter, we celebrate their freedom to explore themselves.

Identity is more important that what someone is arbitrarily assigned at birth. There’s no wrong way to be trans. We simply believe and respect how people want to identify.

-->
@Theweakeredge

“ I agree, Trans folks would be more authentic as transgender if they did the surgery”

That’s a big no-no I’m afraid. We are equally valid regardless of what our bodies look like.

-->
@RationalMadman

Way to pay attention to the resolution buddy. Good job.

-->
@Theweakeredge

The debate said 'beneficial'

-->
@Kbub530

Eh, sounds good to me

-->
@Kbub530

add subject Kbub530 to category leftUnity

-->
@Intelligence_06

Didn’t you know? We trans folk are out to conquer the world and turn all the good boys into catgirls and good girls into awkward dads. We will ban freedom of thought and replace it with our Karl-Marx approved sex toys for toddlers. We will erect a Spencer’s on every street corner and abortion clinics in every kitchen. We are legion.

-->
@RationalMadman

In regards to your vote - I agree

-->
@Kbub530

Uh what?

-->
@TheUnderdog

You’ve figured us out! We are actually all evil.

-->
@MisterChris
@TheUnderdog
@Intelligence_06
@Kbub530
@Juice

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5003-transgender-discussion-education

-->
@Juice

Transgender is referring to the GENDER of a person, not the sex, the two are not synonyms. They mean different things. So again, a false equivalence. Not that you actually rebutted the first one. It's fallacy after fallacy here.

-->
@Theweakeredge

"Ah, false equivalences left and right. Comparing the having to call someone, "Majesty" is not at all the same of having to call a trans male, "he". For one - The title, "Majesty" is usually associated with royalty or something of high regard. Not to mention there is no psychological strain with being or not being of royalty for the majority"

The title he is reserved for men. Women can not say "I feel like a man" and then snag the pronoun.

Imagine this. If I made a social construct of "species", let's name it X, and I changed my X to panda. Would I then be a panda since X is a social construct? and nothing to do with biology?

-->
@TheUnderdog

That conclusion doesn't follow from the premises you gave (I point this out as someone opposed to the notion of transgenderism)

I met a transgender person once. That person is evil. We don't get along. I think many other transgenders are like that.

Yeah... I have thoughts on this, but I think I'll keep them from bleeding into the comments. Looks like we'll have at least a couple of follow-up debates on this topic, so I'm looking forward to seeing how those play out, but I would be interested in doing one myself at some point.

-->
@Theweakeredge

Yeah this is reaching "fundamental worldview" territory.

-->
@MisterChris

I think I'll just open a forum topic, I'm sure people would use it considering how split the site seems to be on this particular issue.

-->
@Theweakeredge

Oh definitely, other sites tend to be unusable in comparison

-->
@MisterChris

That's fair, Though it's not as common here as it is on some other debating websites (cough-DDO-cough), DART does have its problems with misconduct.

-->
@Theweakeredge

Yup, unfortunately though, horrible conduct is not a rare occurrence

-->
@MisterChris

To be fair, this is a unique occurrence as far as debate endings are concerned.

I really hate it when the debaters spill over the debate in the comments, instead of keeping it in the arguments.

-->
@Juice

Ah, false equivalences left and right. Comparing the having to call someone, "Majesty" is not at all the same of having to call a trans male, "he". For one - The title, "Majesty" is usually associated with royalty or something of high regard. Not to mention there is no psychological strain with being or not being of royalty for the majority.

In contrast, a very usual occurrence whenever it comes to trans people is something called, "Gender Dysphoria"[1] or essentially, your mind (Gender) not fitting into the body you were born with. This creates an inherent level of distress at being referred to as, let's use the trans male from before, "she." Therefore it does harm the trans individual to be referred to as such, and is also, incorrect.

As Intelligence is implying, Gender is a social construct, the psychological imperatives of such haven been essentially hammered into our brains in something akin to religious dogma.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/syc-20475255#:~:text=Gender%20dysphoria%20is%20the%20feeling,some%20point%20in%20their%20lives.

-->
@Juice

One is a human, Sir. One’s brain can generate thoughts of one Perceived to belong to others. One cannot implant One’s brain with a thought of a panda or one of an attack helicopter. One has not received the news of one unironically identifying as An attack helicopter outside of fiction, sir. Therefore, one cannot imagine that another individual could identify as a panda the same way one would identify as another sex.

One can call Sir the preferred name, but to prevent deliberate irony, one must find a therapist or a psychologist to determine the matter with. One does not have such abilities but one hope one does.

One can be called their preferred pronoun being that if surgery is performed. It is yet to be falsified that one being biologically accepted as the preferred gender would still be identified as its previous gender.

One thinks of Andrew Martin. One is hardworking becoming a human, and of all, should one positronic brain stop one from becoming a free man, sir?

If one is possible to be transgender and worked an effort to become one, then what justifies to not using one’s preferred pronouns?

Necessarily said, One is glad to be of service.

-->
@Intelligence_06

Exactly my point. I can choose to call you sir. I can choose to call you him. But at the end of the, it is all down to respect, curtesy and personal choice. Are you really an authority figure just because I politely call you sir? Are you really a male even though I politely call you he? It all comes down to whether trans men are men and the answer is no. Biology is on my side. Logic is on my side. Science is on my side and leading politicians who use logic are on my side. You are not a panda if you say you are. You are not a pot plant if you say you are. You are not a human because you say you are. You are not a man because you say you are.

Also have you heard of Jordan Peterson? He came under fire a few years ago when Canada threatened to impose Bill C-16, a law which makes mis gendering illegal. Trans people want to take away my choice of what to call them.

-->
@Juice

One can choose to be royal or to be police, but one cannot choose to be male or female, Sir.

-->
@Intelligence_06

Well, I'm clearly not like you then. I would never call someone "your majesty" or "sir" just because "it might hurt their feelings.

-->
@Juice

Then I will cooperate, given that nothing detrimental will happen, sir.

-->
@Intelligence_06

No, but what if I forced YOU to call me sir.

-->
@Juice

Sir, You can call me whatever you want as long as I am notified that it is me. Bad things that left good things are good for the world, while good deeds done dirty would nevertheless be bad for the world. I care about not whether it is right or wrong prior to the events of it happening, but what it may bring. Happily, I may change the reputation of one thing by doing it, instead of dismissing it as wrong prior.

-->
@Intelligence_06

If I want you to call me sir and your majesty given nothing detrimental would occur would you? It's not about the effects, it's about what's right and wrong.

-->
@Juice

Plus, what is the resolution? Why shouldn't I call someone by their preferred identity, given nothing detrimental it would bring?

-->
@Juice

Option A. I technically can change my gender as many times as I want, but using it as a concern against transgenderism would be absurd.

-->
@Intelligence_06

Be specific. Option A or option B.

Oh, upon that there is no currently interesting discourse and I am of no interest of starting any topic I know, a comments war, if not devolving into name-calling, would be fantastic. We can go as long as possible, until the government censors the site, or we can stop now and call it a peace.

People need to change their body because their mind is currently inconsistent with their body. They think like the opposite sex, and bears, psychologically, their traits. That, is that of a same action compared with pumping my cisgender male brain into the body of a woman. To ensure the growth of my mind, one must find conditions most suitable for it.

Gender is in the mind, and as a result, YES, you can change as many times as you want. No, not like that. Just SAYING you are a woman doesn't make you a woman. It is more complicated than that. For a nation to be declared a democracy only a single written report, being the transcript of the leader saying "We are democratic", is not enough, simply. The "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is actually not a democracy. I am no expert, but a psychologist expertising in this study would easily determine if the being externally looking as if he is a man is actually female in the mind or is he a cisgender male pretending he is a female.

Changing your gender infinitely times is a very grueling phase, if you can call it that. I find no natural uses for that as a transgender, except if you identify, perhaps, as genderfluid. This is a term in which the gender are of no clear boundaries for the individual, and one can flow back and forth, or to be neither. You can transfer your mind into another body, but the mind remains the same. Changing the body is rather easy because you can flow between one state of body to another freely, given the technology needed.

Gender is technically not biological as a male brain is of no clear distinctions compared to a female brain in function. That argument of yours is redundant. Of course, I can change my gender infinitely amount of times, but no "regular" transgender would do so consider their mind is born to be not his physical sex, and remains that way, even if after his surgery of successfully bearing the traits of the preferred gender.

You can take as much time to sift through this grueling block of text as you like or want, or you can save your poor fingers and call it a draw here. You have to, sometimes accept loss, if you really are. I have zero words for this one, but you will know.

-->
@Intelligence_06

As in why I am being frustrated, I'll just say that I am a very competitive person who can't really stand loosing. All on me dw.

-->
@Intelligence_06

Some certain individuals agree with me. You essentially did not rebut anything.

Either A) gender is in the mind. If this is the case then 1) why do people need to change their body? Why do they need to pump themselves with hormones and snip bits of themselves off. Gender is in the mind? 2) If it is in the mind, then I can change my gender as many times as I want.

or B) gender is physical. If this is the case then there is no distinction between gender and sex. However, you will not run into the issue of the possibility of changing ones gender an infinite amount of times.

Make your pick.

-->
@Juice

You are worrying about a debate free of your present control. Why frustrate? Why frustrate on something in which you won't lose anything even if it happens?

-->
@Juice

The winner knows what he is doing. If you have the energy to respond again I will give a better response r 2. Trust me I did rebut lots of thing you said. Wait till one of the voters decide it is good to critique the arguments and see me getting the upper hand.

Even if you think you are winning the war, if one loses the contract, he shall not win. One thinking that he is good enough for pro debating should not dedicate his account on one he cannot give access to, just like that a regional manager should not lose his key to his office, no matter how good the company is doing.

-->
@Intelligence_06

You quite literally did not rebut anything I said.

-->
@Intelligence_06

It's frustrating that the only reason you will win is because I lost my odd email account.

-->
@Theweakeredge

No problem, it's a fine suggestion