Instigator / Pro
Intelligence_06's avatar
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Intelligence_06
1731
rating
167
debates
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Topic
#2776

Trumpism is closer to Fascism than Nazism is to Communism

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
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Better sources
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Better legibility
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After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Tags
Politics
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
Puachu's avatar
0
Puachu
1500
rating
13
debates
42.31%
won
Description

This was originally the BoP for her debate in which it is proposed that Fascism *is* Trumpism. I will argue what she was trying to argue this time.

Definitions not specified here, however any definition given within the rounds must have a reputable source or else they will be regarded as nonsense.

Round 1
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#1
1. Political Alignment

Fascism is known to be an authoritarian right ideology[1].

Trumpism is known to be an authoritarian right ideology also[2].

-

Communism is known to be an authoritarian left ideology[3].

Nazism is known to be an authoritarian right ideology[4].

2. Relationship Within

Donald Trump is regarded by a well portion of the United States as similar to being a Fascist[5].

Opposite to it, Hitler hated communism that he outlawed it, which is nothing remotely close at all[6]. The Neo-Nazi movement recently was more about uniting the right, other than to unite the left[7].

[7]ibid
Puachu's avatar
Puachu
Con
#2
Let's examine the three ideologies of Trumpism, Fascism, and Communism.  Note that Fascism, taken loosely, encompasses Nazism.

First, we shall examine their leaders.

1. Karl Marx & Trostky & Lenin (Communist)

Due to his political publications, Marx became stateless and lived in exile with his wife and children in London for decades ... While residing in Brussels in 1846, Marx continued his association with the secret radical organisation League of the Just ... in June 1847 the League was reorganised by its membership into a new open "above ground" political society that appealed directly to the working classes. This new open political society was called the Communist League. Both Marx and Engels participated in drawing up the programme and organisational principles of the new Communist League. (1)
Marx also wrote the Communist Manifesto and the massive tome, Das Kapital.

Let's read about Trotsky:

In 1898, was arrested for revolutionary activities and subsequently exiled to Siberia. He escaped from Siberia in 1902 ... Trotsky helped organize the failed Russian Revolution of 1905, after which he was again arrested and exiled to Siberia. He once again escaped ... After surviving multiple attempts on his life, Trotsky was assassinated in August 1940 in Mexico City (7)
Next, Lenin:

Publicly championing Marxism within the socialist movement, he encouraged the founding of revolutionary cells in Russia's industrial centres. By late 1894, he was leading a Marxist workers' circle, and meticulously covered his tracks, knowing that police spies tried to infiltrate the movement ... He also authored the political tract What the "Friends of the People" Are and How They Fight the Social-Democrats criticising the Narodnik agrarian-socialists, based largely on his experiences in Samara; around 200 copies were illegally printed in 1894. (8)

2. Hitler & Mussolini (Fascists)

Both were wounded fighting in WWI.

During the Battle of the Somme in October 1916, he was wounded in the left thigh when a shell exploded in the dispatch runners' dugout ... On 15 October 1918, he was temporarily blinded in a mustard gas attack and was hospitalised in Pasewalk. (2)

In 1914, Mussolini ... served in the Royal Italian Army during the war until he was wounded and discharged in 1917. (3)
Hitler dictated the massive tome Mein Kampf, and Mussolini was the founder of the journal, Il Popolo d'Italia.

3. Trump (Trumpist)

Trump is an American celebrity and former host of his own television show.  Here is his autobiography, describing his early struggles:

It has not been easy for me.  You know, I started off in Brooklyn.  My father gave me a small loan of a million dollars. (4)
"His" book, The Art of the Deal, wasn't even written by him, but by a ghostwriter. (5)

Clearly, this last ideology is in an entirely different ballpark.  Communism and Fascism were founded by boots-on-the-ground folks who practiced what they preached, and endured severe hardship and in some cases even lost their own lives in the process.  They did not shrink from proclaiming their intentions, and were not afraid to literally kill their opponents.  Their political movements had asteroid-sized impacts on world history.  Additionally, they all had controversial views on race and religion that they were not ashamed to declare publicly. (6)

Contrast this with Trumpism.  This is nothing more than a personality cult around a tycoon buffoon who's only in it for the money.  Trumpism is a farce; it has no coherent beliefs, because its leader refuses to clarify them.  He is an opportunist only in it for the money and fame, and does not actually share the ideology of his own followers.

Who defines Trumpism?  

Where can I find the Trumpist Manifesto?

There isn't one, because it's an incoherent hodge-podge of more-or-less right-wing American politics.

(6) I can provide sources if challenged on this point.
Round 2
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#3
Dropped points
  • Political Alignment
Rebuttals

Examining their leaders

My opponent just described Hitler, Marx, Trump, etc... but did not even try to find anything similar within their IDEOLOGIES, the thing we are arguing for, other than Fascism and Nazism.

Now let's see Opp's first and only response to "Relationship within".

Clearly, this last ideology is in an entirely different ballpark.  Communism and Fascism were founded by boots-on-the-ground folks who practiced what they preached, and endured severe hardship and in some cases even lost their own lives in the process.
So what is the only similarity my opponent have found? It is that both Communism and Fascism were built with much more effort than Trumpism. However, she obviously forgot that alignment wise, Communism is on the left end and Fascism on the right, polar opposites and the two have been enemies of each other for almost 50 years. How are two ideologies which are literal opposites and even archenemies for decades closer to a authoritarian-right political ideology and another authoritarian right ideology?

Essentially both sides agree on these points:
  • Fascism is authright
  • Trumpism is authright(Yes he is[1])
  • Communism is authleft
  • Fascism and Communism are built in similar traditions(No ideology-wise similarities were mentioned)
Now let's define "Close".
Since my opponent did not define the term "Close", I will. I will define "close" in this topic as that both ideologies, ideology-wise, are closer to each other in ideals, which is probably what the majority of sane people would think it means, when one political ideology is compared to the other. Liberalism and progressivism are close to each other. Anarchism and totalitarianism are not close to each other. Con have the right(pun unintended) to remove this definition by giving a better definition in a more authentic source.

My opponent has only proved what the road of creation of two ideologies(which I agree, but that is not the point at all), but had not proven, in ideals, how Communism and Fascism are similar or at least similar than to Trumpism.

Nor did Con disprove that Communism is far-left and Fascism far-right and Trumpism moderately-right while being somewhat authoritarian. In the political compass(which is claimed to be adequate for rough estimates, even if it is not good for exact pinpointing[2]), Communism would likely to be in the top-left corner(clearly leftist and authoritarian), Fascism in the top-right corner(Being far-right and authoritarian), and Trumpism be somewhere on the authright quadrant(Evidently right-wing and somewhat authoritarian. Where is Fascism closer to?

Not to mention the second set of dropped points: Hitler is an enemy of Communism. Their ideals are very different whereas some of Trump's ideals overlap with that of Fascism. Dropped.

Trumpism at least overlap with Fascism. With the flooding results with a single search, you tell me[3].

Conclusions
  • Political-ideology-wise, Trumpism is closer to Fascism than Nazism is to Communism
  • Trump's ideology overlap with Fascism while Hitler and Communism are enemies
  • Vote Pro
Puachu's avatar
Puachu
Con
#4
My opponent just described Hitler, Marx, Trump, etc... but did not even try to find anything similar within their IDEOLOGIES, the thing we are arguing for, other than Fascism and Nazism.

First, we shall examine their leaders.
There was no "Second," and that is my mistake.  I was tired and it was the last thing I did before bed and I completely forgot to write about their ideologies.  So in this round I will focus on identifying points that emphasize how Trumpism is far away from Fascism.

From my opponent's own link to the Trumpism Wikipedia article:

Trumpism started its development predominantly during Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. It denotes a populist political method ... As a political method, populism is not driven by any particular ideology ... former close Trump advisor John Bolton alleges this to be true about Trump, disputing that "Trumpism" even exists in any meaningful philosophical sense
This supports my previous point about Trumpism not even being a coherent ideology.  Even Communism is closer to Fascism in this respect.  Their beliefs are written in stone.  They have concrete ideals that their members subscribe to.  They are (more-or-less) coherent, unlike Trumpism.

Trumpism supports gun rights.  But Communism supports them more:

Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary (1)
Fascism was less obsessed with gun rights:

If freedom is short of weapons, we must compensate with willpower. (2)
In fact, it outright denied gun rights equality with the 1938 Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons. So here we see Trumpism being less like Fascism, because it supports gun rights for all without regard to race or religion.  This undermines my opponent's use of the left/right metaphor, because gun rights is one of the top 3 major beliefs of Trumpism. (3)

Communism and Fascism both took extreme positions on leadership.  Communism says, no leader.  Facsism says, an absolutely powerful leader in charge for life.  A dictatorship.  

Contrast that with Trumpism, where their position on how much power their ruler should have is quite shaky.  Should it be for 4 years?  8 years?  Should they be mostly just a figurehead with lots of checks, balances, and roadblocks in the way?  Trumpism is all over the place.  Again, this ties back into the point about incoherency.

Another way that Communism and Fascism are very similar, and where Trumpism is dissimilar, is that they were vocally critical about Jewish people. (4)(5) It doesn't matter if they were critical in different ways, the point is Trumpists are highly and overwhelmingly supportive of Jews and Israel.  Trumpism has no negative attitude towards either Jews nor Israel, and views them in a very favourable light, as religious and political allies. (6)(7)

Hitler is an enemy of Communism. Their ideals are very different whereas some of Trump's ideals overlap with that of Fascism.
If you ask Trump he would claim to be an enemy of Fascism:

... told ABC News' George Stephanopoulos on Good Morning America that likening him to Hitler is "terrible" and that he is "not happy."  ... Trump said he was not aware celebrities, including Louis C.K., and some world leaders, such as Mexican president Peña Nieto, were comparing him to Hitler. "I don't want that comparison," he added. (8)
Communism and Fascism are both anti-Capitalism. (9)(10)  Trumpism is pro-Capitalism. (3)

I have listed several hugely important ways that Trumpism is not comparable to Fascism and Communism.  Coherency, Guns, Leadership, Jewish people, and Economics.

I will now close this round by pointing out that all the founders and leaders of Communism and Fascism were born in the 1800s.  Trump was born in 1946.  So Trumpism is a modern ideology.  The others are antique.

(3) My own experience with Trumpists.  Again, refer to my previous point about the ideology not having any concrete manifesto.  Con is free to challenge this if he wants.
(5) Feel free to challenge this claim and I can provide sources.
(6) See #3.
(9) I assume Con will not dispute that Communism is anti-Capitalism.
Round 3
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#5
This supports my previous point about Trumpism not even being a coherent ideology.  Even Communism is closer to Fascism in this respect.  Their beliefs are written in stone.  They have concrete ideals that their members subscribe to.  They are (more-or-less) coherent, unlike Trumpism.
Con has not even refuted Pro's definition whatsoever, so just arguing that the beliefs are "coherent" does nothing here as Communism and Fascism are the opposite of the left-and-right spectrum, while Trumpism is more towards the Fascist side, being authoritarian-right. Notice how the article didn't even state "It is an incoherent mess" or anything like it, instead it is just a comment made by a single politician, which may or may not be reliable. 

Nevertheless, Con completely drops the statements made about the alignments of said political ideologies. I remain stand still on the case made the last two rounds: Trumpism is more right than left, and thus it is closer to Fascism than Communism.

Trumpism supports gun rights.  But Communism supports them more:

Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary (1)
Fascism was less obsessed with gun rights:

If freedom is short of weapons, we must compensate with willpower. (2)
In fact, it outright denied gun rights equality with the 1938 Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons. So here we see Trumpism being less like Fascism, because it supports gun rights for all without regard to race or religion.  This undermines my opponent's use of the left/right metaphor, because gun rights is one of the top 3 major beliefs of Trumpism. (3)
Considering the resolution upon this point is about whether Fascism is closer to Communism or Trumpism, it is an agreement that upon the gun rights' issue, Con did not prove anything helpful enough to herself. This is because that since it is true that "Not at all" is closer to "Somewhat" than "A lot", the same way that 0 is closer to 1 than it is to 10, the "Guns are unneeded" of Fascism is simply closer to "Guns shouldn't be banned, alright" of Trumpism, compared to "Guns should not be taken from the workers, in ANY extent" of Communism, on this issue, Fascism is closer to Trumpism compared to Communism.

Communism and Fascism both took extreme positions on leadership.  Communism says, no leader.  Facsism says, an absolutely powerful leader in charge for life.  A dictatorship.  

Contrast that with Trumpism, where their position on how much power their ruler should have is quite shaky.  Should it be for 4 years?  8 years?  Should they be mostly just a figurehead with lots of checks, balances, and roadblocks in the way?  Trumpism is all over the place.  Again, this ties back into the point about incoherency.
Trumpism wants a president, especially Donald Trump for president in the near future or now. This is more similar to Dictatorial Fascism than leaderless Communism, considering a one-man leadership is more similar to a one-man leadership than an equal "democracy". Con did not prove anything useful here either.

More than that, Trump implied that at one time he thinks abolishing term limits is OK[1], which makes him even closer to fascism!

If you ask Trump he would claim to be an enemy of Fascism:

... told ABC News' George Stephanopoulos on Good Morning America that likening him to Hitler is "terrible" and that he is "not happy."  ... Trump said he was not aware celebrities, including Louis C.K., and some world leaders, such as Mexican president Peña Nieto, were comparing him to Hitler. "I don't want that comparison," he added. (8)
Did he outright ban fascism, illegalizing any fascist activities? Nope. In fact, he is somewhat comfortable with a domestic fascist group, KKK[2]. Hitler or Mussolini are never allied with a communist unless they have a mutual archenemy, but Trump here? Nah, just hanging out with a fascist organization, no big deal.

The leader of KKK supported Trump[3]. Say whatever you will say about it.

Communism and Fascism are both anti-Capitalism. (9)(10)  Trumpism is pro-Capitalism. (3)
It is an established fact that Fascism is anti-socialist. Fascism is closer to capitalism than socialism[4]. Fascism is closer to Trumpism than Communism.

I have proven, in several ways, that Fascism is closer to Trumpism than Communism.

(F=Fascism, T=Trumpism, C=Communism)
  • F and T are authright, C is authleft
  • F and T are more capitalist than socialist, C is socialist
  • F and C are enemies, F and T aren't
  • On the Gun rights issue, F is closer than T than compared to C
  • Overall, F is closer to T than to C
  • Vote Pro



Puachu's avatar
Puachu
Con
#6
Con has not even refuted Pro's definition whatsoever, so just arguing that the beliefs are "coherent" does nothing here as Communism and Fascism are the opposite of the left-and-right spectrum
The three ideologies may be judged based not only on where they lie on the left/right spectrum, but also the coherent/incoherent spectrum.

the "Guns are unneeded" of Fascism is simply closer to "Guns shouldn't be banned, alright" of Trumpism, compared to "Guns should not be taken from the workers, in ANY extent" of Communism, on this issue, Fascism is closer to Trumpism compared to Communism.
Trumpism is pro-gun, not merely anti-anti-gun.  Out of respect for my opponent who is unable to respond, this being the last round, I will not quote any Trumpist on this issue.  I will merely let the voters judge the truth of this claim based on their own experience with Trumpism.

he is somewhat comfortable with a domestic fascist group, KKK[2]
My opponent's citation is a fraud, and debunked by Snopes. (1)

It is an established fact that Fascism is anti-socialist.
Right.  That's why I said in the last round, "I assume Con will not dispute that Communism is anti-Capitalism."

Fascism is closer to capitalism than socialism[4]
Not even the slightest explanation, just a link to a source which, judging purely by the title, claims that capitalism leads to fascism?  According to communist ideology, capitalism actually leads to communism, it's diametrically-opposed opposite.   So even if capitalism did inevitably lead to fascism, that would suggest that fascism is the opposite of capitalism, since it's already a popular idea that capitalism leads to it's opposite, communism.

In any case I don't feel pressured to put more effort into this point, since my opponent clearly did not think it worth their time.

In conclusion:

  • Comunism & Fascism are coherent.  Trumpism is not.
  • Communism & Fascism are antique.  Trumpism not. (2)
  • Communism & Fascism were founded by people who sincerely believed their own ideologies and practiced what they preach.  Trumpism was not.
  • Communism & Fascism are both anti-Capitalist.  Trumpism is not. (3)
  • Communism & Fascism are both critical of Jewish politics.  Trumpism is not. (4)
  • Communism & Trumpism are both pro-gun.  Fascism is less so.  This enforces my position that Trumpism is not more similar to Fascism than Communism.
These points should demonstrate that Trumpism is not any more Fascist than it is Communist.  It's simply not comparable to either.

Of all the points we argued about, Con has bested me regarding only a single one, and that was about how much power Trumpists believe a ruler should possess.

(2) I concede this is a weak argument, but I hope it serves to tip any fence-sitting voters over the edge.
(3) Trump himself is basically a capitalist icon.
(4) It's interesting that my opponent dropped this point completely.