Allowing transgendered athletes (mtf) to compete in athletics against biological females is unfair
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I just ask that you debate in the intended spirit. I don't have the time to make my resolutions bulletproof. I want to spend my time debating
I don't think most trans athletes are on hormones for 5 years when they compete. I also don't think people claiming to be trans should be on hormones when they are too young because they might regret their decision and some things (like genital mutilation) are irreversible. I think castration of trans women is needed to get rid of their testosterone advantage and this is irreversable.
You can say that I believe I am 'entitled to rob cis females of their medals' or I am 'appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something' if you would like to. That doesn't change the fact my entire stance is centred around fairness, and, funnily enough, you haven't challenged my stance or my facts at all. I'd prefer if cis females weren't robbed of their achievements, in fact.
Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) athletes perform better than AFAB athletes. I have tried to give good reason to believe that the factors that one might believe are the cause of this difference in ability are either insufficient to be classified as an unfair advantage across gender lines (ex: bone density) or can be changed with years of hormone therapy. Claim I am 'guilt tripping' or 'appealing to fear of being labelled transphobic' if you please, but I'm not going to claim you're transphobic unless you do something transphobic, and you haven't. The only thing you've done is say I'm trying to fearmonger or guilt-trip so that you can avoid responding to any of the things I actually said.
Male-sex individuals have a disproportionate advantage at the highest level of every single sport almost (gymnastics is debatable).
Sex, not gender. It's fucking biology. It's a fact. You can be a feminine male and be respected and be called 'she/her' in your daily life but don't for one second think you should be entitled to rob cis females of their medals, world-records etc by appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something.
In a few years time, myself and others will protest this horrible and unfair allowance of male-sex individuals to rob cis females of their hard-earned achievements.
Oh, and I also forgot to mention something. Where I was going with her final fight being in September of 2014 and coming out as trans in March of 2013 means that I in no way endorse her participation in women's sports because, as stated prior, I am only defending the position that after a full transition should a trans athlete be able to compete at the professional level. Making a sweeping statement about transgender athletes using someone who physically could not have completed their transition even partially as an example is disingenuous, but nonetheless it seems that the data would, in spite of these facts, still fall on my side of the house.
Fallon Fox came out as transgender on March 5th of 2013, at which point she had beaten 2 opponents in her professional fight record in the first round both times In her amateur fight record, she is undefeated winning every fight in the first round. Since March 5th, she has had 4 more fights, one of which she lost in the third round and only one of which she won in the first round. Moreover, her final fight was in September of 2014. If we look at the professional stats, two opponents always cited against Fallon Fox (who she actually fought before coming out as trans), Ericka Newsome and Elisha Helsper, both have never won a single professional MMA match.
What we take from all of this information is that not only was Fallon Fox not a 'terrible fighter until he started fighting women' (I don't simply not notice your choice to misgender her either), but moreover, the record that would prove utter domination after coming out as MtF were your claims true goes to show that she performed worse after coming out as trans as opposed to something that would prove unfairness.
If you want to bring the validity of my sources or my information into question, please feel free to do so. I don't want to be the kind of person who can never be wrong, nor do I want to use sources that aren't valid. But I don't think you can do that when you don't provide sources of your own, make claims that go against the information I presented from my sources, and simply declare the data I use is 'cherry picked' for no other reason than you want it to be.
1. "Fallon Fox Comes Out as Trans Pro MMA Fighter" https://www.outsports.com/2013/3/5/4068840/fallon-fox-trans-pro-mma-fighter
2. "Fallon Fox MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox:8EE8EE2C62CA09BF/
3. "Ericka Newsome MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Ericka-Newsome:19406A5D01DAE992/
4. "Elisha Helper MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Elisha-Helsper:CE4E8692AA7FBF31/
Let's just ignore that Fallon Fox was a terrible fighter until he started fighting women and literally breaking their skulls. There is a reason why MTF athletes dominate in absolutely every sport they are allowed to compete in against girls,, and it is ridiculous to bow to cherry picked data over actual real world results of men being able to push females out of their own sports.
I remember the case of 2 MTF runners dominating the best female runners and how after proving their genetic advantage on the field, told the media that the girls needed to work harder to beat them, claiming they were lazy
I'm a left-wing progressive so your guilt trip won't work on me like it would/could on a truly transphobic right-winger.
I know exactly what I support and what is reasonable and what is nothing more than an abuse of sympathy to trans people to rob cis females of their medals.
oh I am totally and utterly against that too, I find it's a form of extremely irresponsible parenting. That permanently damages their body's development based on what could be a delusion or phase of a developing confused mind that can't legally consent yet.
It's intriguing how you choose to forget trans individuals who begin hormone replacement therapy early enough into puberty to the point your claims make no sense, but here's some sources for you anyways since you seem to have forgotten to use any yourself.
1. Bone density varies vastly more on race than gender https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
2. You say 'lower testosterone than they used to have' to describe an MtF transition, which is innacurate since the entire purpose of anti-androgens is to completely block the vast majority of testosterone production and replace it with estradiol. Sources about HRT here (https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy and https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy)
3. Sports Med in 2017 research paper reviewing competitve policy regarding transgender people https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
Moreover, allow me to directly quote from the 3rd links conclusion section in the abstract:
"Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised."
I have real life promises and responsibilities that both interest me more and even matter more.
I also have other hobbies than wasting huge effort and time on 30k per round just to realise nobody votes or if they do, votes based on BS.
If you were curious how obviously wrong you are on this topic, read what Bones wrote and research how consistently male-sex individuals who spent puberty and adult years gaining bone density, muscle mass and generally big built etc perform even with lower testosterone than they used to have.
Interesting how you made the same claim in our debate and I've yet to see you actually rebuke my argument against it. You're bad at keepin' your promises.
Unfortunately, that's a question I cannot answer. It's best left up to experts to review data (which I don't believe exists in abundance yet) regarding muscle-fat distributions, lactate threshold, rate of muscle gain, etc... to decide that and for policy changes to follow. However, as a general answer, the majority of effects from Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT), excluding the use of progesterone (an optional supplement to anti-androgens and estradiol which anecdotal evidence suggests may increase breast maximum growth, but has potential side effects [the use of which also lacks data]), will come no later than 5 years after the beginning of treatment on average. Certain aspects can reach their maximum no later than 2 years on average (ex: breast growth).
You can find more information about HRT here:
How much time should trans females go through hormone therapy? I don’t know too much about this.
Fallon Fox broke a part of her opponent's skull in the women's UFC, yes. What you leave out is that a) injuries to sections of the skull are not an uncommon occurrence in MMA, b) her cisgender colleagues have, at times, outperformed her and, the image I believe you're referencing came from a fight that did not even involve Fallon Fox and occurred years after her last fight, and c) I in no way endorse trans women who just came out be given the right to immediately compete at the PROFESSIONAL level, since that is obviously unfair. I believe that after years of hormone therapy, at which point a person's muscle-fat distribution and hormones have changed to a level that could be seen in a cisgender female (and often is with women at the professional level of any sport), that is when I believe it is not an unfair advantage. I'll leave it to later in this debate to go further in depth.
1: "Incidence of Injury in Professional MMA Competitions" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3863915/
2: "Finding the truth about transgender athletes in women's sports" https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading
3: "Social media posts mislead about transgender MMA fighter's injuries to opponents" https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/
4: "Debunking "Unfair Advantage" Myths About Trans Athletes" https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
He ain't capping. There's a reason Fallon Fox broke his opponent's skull in the women UFC. Literally. Tamika Brents had her brain dribbling out of her nose after that fight.
If there were clown emojis on this website, I would use them right now.
Anyone who is Con to this topic doesn't give the slightest shit about female-sex athletes and their achievements.
I like to think that I am, haha. I'm happy to have the chance to have a discussion such as this one!
I am happy a trans person accepted this debate. It makes me feel, you may be more knowledgeable about the subject than an average opponent would be
I respect you for bringing that up. Intersex people are a very important thing to consider in debate such as this one.
The REAL question is: What happens if an intersex person suddenly becomes fit and decides to join a sport?
I live on the east coast. Travelling to Missouri takes roughly 2 days worth of travel by car. Trans track meets can take place on the weekends so the competitors can leave Friday, spend Saturday and early Sunday travelling, compete Sunday, spend Monday coming back and they resume activities on Tuesday or Wednesday.
I live in florida. I guess I'll refrain from cutting my dick off. That is an insane length to travel
No, but Kansas City meets both of the following criteria for why I advocate sending all transgender athletes there for a track meet. The criteria are:
1) It is a relatively big city
2) It is in the approximate center of the US