Instigator / Pro
6
1387
rating
34
debates
22.06%
won
Topic
#3104

Allowing transgendered athletes (mtf) to compete in athletics against biological females is unfair

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
15
Better sources
4
10
Better legibility
2
5
Better conduct
0
5

After 5 votes and with 29 points ahead, the winner is...

Nyxified
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
15,500
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
35
1593
rating
21
debates
66.67%
won
Description

I just ask that you debate in the intended spirit. I don't have the time to make my resolutions bulletproof. I want to spend my time debating

You blocked me for some reason so I can't respond directly, but here is my explanation.

because I like debating, so I keep trying. However I really don't have time for it.

-->
@Wylted

why do you forfeit almost every debate?

among us is fake

-->
@drlebronski

Yep. My thoughts exactly.

"boys who want to play dress up"
"trannies"
What a douchebag

-->
@Nyxified

I think he actually retired in 2016. Maybe he did not go back to fighting.

-->
@Nyxified

Cyborg Santos

-->
@Sum1hugme

What's the fighter's name?

-->
@Nyxified

His whole face got caved in. He still fights though.

-->
@Sum1hugme

Well, I've never seen that one before. It's a good example of how breaking the skull/segments of the skull isn't a once in a lifetime thing in MMA, though

-->
@Nyxified

Best broken skull moment in MMA.

https://youtu.be/nlLMRerwO4M

a study that showed being transgender didn't give them an advantage https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

Does wylted actually think gender dysphoria isnt real?

-->
@Wylted

Apologies for the delay in my response, I got considerably sidetracked and wanted to properly analyze the data before making arguments around it.

Nice comeback, by the way.

Your argument is due genius

-->
@Nyxified

You know I only give a shit about the debate right? Proving your nonsense wrong here is only o interest to me.

I also think hen a person like you is incorrect itnis impossible to change their mind. You coincidentally believe the stuff about gender dysphoria that make you feel good, and we are in a society where academics will not even publish studies that will offend SJWs because SJWs are scared of the truth and will attack or ruin the lives of academics who do publish inconvenient studies

-->
@Wylted

Regardless, you've still given me no reason to believe that. I've given evidence and you've given me your opinion, and I think that says more than enough about the strength of the claims. Say it's 'obviously' what you're referring to if you think that's true, and it might be, but can you blame me when say 'sewing some sort of nasty flesh dildo onto your vagina' (which is a very interesting way to frame bottom surgery for a transgender male[1])? It doesn't help when you're also insinuating that literally every trans person regrets it and that those who don't detransition commit suicide.

You give two reasons a person might transition (with no sources again), the first is called 'autogynephilia'. I won't examine this too harshly since you acquiesce that it is rare (astronomically so to the point of insignificance). But it's worth noting that 93% of cis women are autogynephiliacs[2] and autogynephilia was invented to prove lesbian trans females only exist because of men who get aroused while cross-dressing and was made by the same person who argued that trans women were nothing more than extremely effeminate gay men[3]. The theory as a whole has no basis in logic[3].

Your second reason is... Interesting. Again, as a trans person, I find it bold to assume that in a world where you can be put to death for being transgender, trans people are routinely disowned and left homeless[4], face 2x the poverty rate and 3x the unemployment rate[5], and where violence and discrimination are an incredibly regular occurrence, your first presumption is to chalk the suicide rate up to trans people 'still being themselves'.

It's even more interesting when you realize that 91% of trans people who have undergone transition surgery would do it again if given the chance[6], something I'm sure you'll ignore by saying it's because those who are dissatisfied are committing suicide (again). This is in spite of a study over 45 years long found <0.6% of 8000+ trans people died by suicide (also showing rates stayed consistent throughout transition)[7] and studies show transition improves mental health/reduces dysphoria[8][9][10][11]. If you would like to claim the Swedish study by that shows increased rates of suicide after transition, here's the researcher who conducted the study saying that, not only is that not what the study shows, but also that transition reduces suicide rates[12].

Here's some more sources on satisfaction with gender transition for good measure, including a review of 72 studies that said "The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.[11]"[8][9][10][11]

Sorry for the long post. My response to debate should drop tomorrow or the day after.

Sources:
1. "What to know about female-to-male surgery" https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326590#surgery
2. "From Moser's paper which 'shows autogynephilia in 93% of women'" https://medium.com/@mirandayardley/from-mosers-paper-which-shows-autogynephilia-in-93-of-women-9d9d16f147d2
3. "The Autogynephilia Theory Debunked by New German Study" https://www.crossdreamers.com/2020/05/the-autogynephilia-theory-debunked-by.html
4. "Family Rejection Leaves Too Many Transgender Americans Homeless" https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/01/family-rejection-leaves-too-many-transgender-americans-homeless.html
5. "New U.S. Transgender Survey has compelling data about being trans in America" https://www.glaad.org/blog/new-us-transgender-survey-has-compelling-data-about-being-trans-america
6. "Patients Report High Satisfaction with Sex-Reassignment Surgery" https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/patients-report-high-satisfaction-with-sex-reassignment-surgery/
7. "Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/
8. "Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/
9. "Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5
10. "Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women
11. "What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
12. "Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal" https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

-->
@Nyxified

It's called using context clues. I understand English is disgusting and turning into an extremely low context language, but let's be civilized and treat it like a high context language (such as Japanese), while we can.

You mentioned that a study showed 2% regret transitioning. Obviously the ones who commit suicide before they can detransition is what I was referring to. Also, not all people who regret getting their dick cut off, think detransitioning is a viable option.

Transitioning happens for 2 reasons.

The 1st and most rare one is that the person is sexually attracted to the ideal of being a woman. It makes them hard to think about it. Not much different than people who are attracted to being handicapped and want to lose their limbs.

The second reason people transition, is because they hate themselves. They think if they can erase themselves and become a woman, it will make them happy. However, even after the transition, they realize they are still themselves and now they have mutilated themselves. This is why transgender suicide rates are so high post op.

You don't cure gender dysmorphia by cutting your dick off. Or sewing some sort of nasty flesh dildo onto your vagina.

-->
@Wylted

"Only because the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide. Not something to brag about"

I don't know about you, but I don't see the word 'regret' or any synonyms of it in this sentence. The irony.

I said the remaining ones who regret it, not all transgenders. Nice intellectual honesty though

-->
@TheUnderdog

I have specified that all the arguments I was making applied to professional sports for good reason. While the majority of my information and arguments relate to professional sports, as that's the realm that this issue is usually discussed in, I believe there are very good arguments that suggest there is reason to believe the need for inclusion in high school or earlier level sports trumps the need for fairness (excluding tournaments). I say this because, in professional sports, the legacy and livelihood of people is dependent on an equal playing field. Events like the Olympics are designed to show the best of human ability, and an unfair advantage almost nullifies that purpose entirely.

However, high school sports aren't that. I have yet to be convinced that the need for fairness when next to nothing is at stake, nor have I been convinced that said need overrules the mental health and inclusion and acceptance of trans individuals trying to live their live as and alongside the gender they identify as. In my opinion, while it is obvious that there would be some people who would be frustrated with the inclusion of people they can never beat, I believe that represents the greatest opportunity to learn and to be challenged. This is something I can attest to from my own personal experiences, but, again, it is a matter of opinion. I put the breaks on inclusion in tournament settings because the entire purpose is to provide recognition for the ability of those who compete, whereas in a club setting, the purpose is to encourage growth and be a fun place for an extracurricular activity. However, none of my beliefs with regards to highschool sports are set in stone.

-->
@Wylted

Oh, you're more than welcome. If you have chosen to preemptively rebuttal me, which is the only way I can see that making a difference, that will be more than transparent to anyone reading and my arguments will stand nonetheless.

If you want to claim that "the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide", maybe it wouldn't hurt to link a single source? Just a thought, since I've never heard a single study relating to how the remaining 98%-99.8% of trans people choose to kill themselves, and also I linked 6 different sources.

"Wylted it's called being noble and actually believing in one's arguments and ability to debate.

Not everyone is scared shit to lose and has to hide their entire argument content each debate"

I hope you aren't implying I am scared to lose. I think my record stands on its own in that regard.

Wylted it's called being noble and actually believing in one's arguments and ability to debate.

Not everyone is scared shit to lose and has to hide their entire argument content each debate

-->
@Nyxified

My stance regarding that is informed by statistics of the rate of transgender people that detransition (usually between 0.2% and 2% [often closer to <=1%])

Only because the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide. Not something to brag about

Thanks for letting me know your arguments before the debate starts. Very intelligent move on your part

-->
@Nyxified

Suppose that the only transgenders that transitioned were 16 or older as what you advocate for. If they need to be under hormones for 2 years to compete, they would be at least 18 by the time that is done. How can a transgender individual compete in high school sports if they are at least 18?

The overwhelming majority of transgender athletes would be unable to compete if they only transitioned when 16 or older and if they had to be on hormones for 2 years. The ones that could could only compete senior year and this is assuming that 16 years of age to transition and 2 years of hormones are enough. The experts might claim more time is needed to eliminate the testosterone advantage. I think you said that as much as 5 years are needed to eliminate the testosterone advantage somewhere ( I honestly don’t know too much about this so from my perspective I’m learning). If 5 years of hormones are needed, then this rules out transgender athletes from competing since there wouldn’t be enough time for the hormones to work if the trans individual starts out at 16.

Thoughts?

-->
@TheUnderdog

Without examining how accurate your first claim is (mostly because I truly am not sure of it's validity), to repeat my position, I in no way endorse or support that for the sake of this debate. While there are those who argue for transgender inclusion in professional athletics before 5 years of HRT or for immediately, even, and there is certainly merit to the evidence they present at times, it's not a position I am fully prepared to support.

I won't comment on your beliefs with regards to hormones either, as I do not know what qualifies as 'too young'. My stance regarding that is informed by statistics of the rate of transgender people that detransition (usually between 0.2% and 2% [often closer to <=1%]) and the lack of evidence to believe a significantly higher rate exists for adolescents (partially because of insufficient data)[1][2][3][4]. This evidence combined with my own experiences within the 2SLGBTQQIAAPN+ community are why I support an individual's right to pursue a medical transition after the age of 16, up until which they can use puberty-blockers, which is a position supported by the majority of modern scientists[5].

The only thing I will contest is that I know of no evidence to suggest that bottom surgery is necessary to eliminate 'testosterone advantage'. The amount of testosterone in trans females using anti-androgens (ex: Spironolactone) is significantly reduced and is replaced with estrogen through the use of estradiol[6]. I am prepared to acquiesce this nonetheless if I turn out to be incorrect in testosterone's impact and the effectiveness of anti-androgens, but my position would still stand.

Sources:
1. "The End of the Desistance Myth" http://www.brynntannehill.com/the-end-of-the-desistance-myth/
2. "Factors Leading to "Detransition" Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis" https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2020.0437
3. "Retransition or Detransition: Statistics, Health Care" https://www.verywellhealth.com/detransition-or-retransition-5093126
4. "Research shows less than 5% who medically transition detransition, not 80%" https://morganeoger.ca/2019/06/09/research-shows-less-than-5-who-medically-transition-detransition-not-80/
5. "Dynamic gender presentations: Understanding transition and "de-transition" among transgender youth." https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-33024-004
6. "Wikipedia Spironolactone (paragraph 3 of Pharmacology/Pharmacodynamics) (this was the best source for explanation even though it is wikipedia)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone#Pharmacology

-->
@Nyxified

I don't think most trans athletes are on hormones for 5 years when they compete. I also don't think people claiming to be trans should be on hormones when they are too young because they might regret their decision and some things (like genital mutilation) are irreversible. I think castration of trans women is needed to get rid of their testosterone advantage and this is irreversable.

-->
@RationalMadman

You can say that I believe I am 'entitled to rob cis females of their medals' or I am 'appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something' if you would like to. That doesn't change the fact my entire stance is centred around fairness, and, funnily enough, you haven't challenged my stance or my facts at all. I'd prefer if cis females weren't robbed of their achievements, in fact.

Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) athletes perform better than AFAB athletes. I have tried to give good reason to believe that the factors that one might believe are the cause of this difference in ability are either insufficient to be classified as an unfair advantage across gender lines (ex: bone density) or can be changed with years of hormone therapy. Claim I am 'guilt tripping' or 'appealing to fear of being labelled transphobic' if you please, but I'm not going to claim you're transphobic unless you do something transphobic, and you haven't. The only thing you've done is say I'm trying to fearmonger or guilt-trip so that you can avoid responding to any of the things I actually said.

-->
@Nyxified

Male-sex individuals have a disproportionate advantage at the highest level of every single sport almost (gymnastics is debatable).

Sex, not gender. It's fucking biology. It's a fact. You can be a feminine male and be respected and be called 'she/her' in your daily life but don't for one second think you should be entitled to rob cis females of their medals, world-records etc by appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something.

In a few years time, myself and others will protest this horrible and unfair allowance of male-sex individuals to rob cis females of their hard-earned achievements.

-->
@Wylted

Oh, and I also forgot to mention something. Where I was going with her final fight being in September of 2014 and coming out as trans in March of 2013 means that I in no way endorse her participation in women's sports because, as stated prior, I am only defending the position that after a full transition should a trans athlete be able to compete at the professional level. Making a sweeping statement about transgender athletes using someone who physically could not have completed their transition even partially as an example is disingenuous, but nonetheless it seems that the data would, in spite of these facts, still fall on my side of the house.

-->
@Wylted

Fallon Fox came out as transgender on March 5th of 2013[1], at which point she had beaten 2 opponents in her professional fight record in the first round both times In her amateur fight record, she is undefeated winning every fight in the first round. Since March 5th, she has had 4 more fights, one of which she lost in the third round and only one of which she won in the first round. Moreover, her final fight was in September of 2014.[2] If we look at the professional stats, two opponents always cited against Fallon Fox (who she actually fought before coming out as trans), Ericka Newsome and Elisha Helsper, both have never won a single professional MMA match[3][4].

What we take from all of this information is that not only was Fallon Fox not a 'terrible fighter until he started fighting women' (I don't simply not notice your choice to misgender her either), but moreover, the record that would prove utter domination after coming out as MtF were your claims true goes to show that she performed worse after coming out as trans as opposed to something that would prove unfairness.

If you want to bring the validity of my sources or my information into question, please feel free to do so. I don't want to be the kind of person who can never be wrong, nor do I want to use sources that aren't valid. But I don't think you can do that when you don't provide sources of your own, make claims that go against the information I presented from my sources, and simply declare the data I use is 'cherry picked' for no other reason than you want it to be.

Citations:
1. "Fallon Fox Comes Out as Trans Pro MMA Fighter" https://www.outsports.com/2013/3/5/4068840/fallon-fox-trans-pro-mma-fighter
2. "Fallon Fox MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox:8EE8EE2C62CA09BF/
3. "Ericka Newsome MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Ericka-Newsome:19406A5D01DAE992/
4. "Elisha Helper MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Elisha-Helsper:CE4E8692AA7FBF31/

-->
@Nyxified

Let's just ignore that Fallon Fox was a terrible fighter until he started fighting women and literally breaking their skulls. There is a reason why MTF athletes dominate in absolutely every sport they are allowed to compete in against girls,, and it is ridiculous to bow to cherry picked data over actual real world results of men being able to push females out of their own sports.

I remember the case of 2 MTF runners dominating the best female runners and how after proving their genetic advantage on the field, told the media that the girls needed to work harder to beat them, claiming they were lazy

-->
@Nyxified

I'm a left-wing progressive so your guilt trip won't work on me like it would/could on a truly transphobic right-winger.

I know exactly what I support and what is reasonable and what is nothing more than an abuse of sympathy to trans people to rob cis females of their medals.

-->
@Nyxified

oh I am totally and utterly against that too, I find it's a form of extremely irresponsible parenting. That permanently damages their body's development based on what could be a delusion or phase of a developing confused mind that can't legally consent yet.

-->
@RationalMadman

It's intriguing how you choose to forget trans individuals who begin hormone replacement therapy early enough into puberty to the point your claims make no sense, but here's some sources for you anyways since you seem to have forgotten to use any yourself.

1. Bone density varies vastly more on race than gender https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
2. You say 'lower testosterone than they used to have' to describe an MtF transition, which is innacurate since the entire purpose of anti-androgens is to completely block the vast majority of testosterone production and replace it with estradiol. Sources about HRT here (https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy and https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy)
3. Sports Med in 2017 research paper reviewing competitve policy regarding transgender people https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

Moreover, allow me to directly quote from the 3rd links conclusion section in the abstract:

"Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised."

-->
@Theweakeredge

I have real life promises and responsibilities that both interest me more and even matter more.

I also have other hobbies than wasting huge effort and time on 30k per round just to realise nobody votes or if they do, votes based on BS.

If you were curious how obviously wrong you are on this topic, read what Bones wrote and research how consistently male-sex individuals who spent puberty and adult years gaining bone density, muscle mass and generally big built etc perform even with lower testosterone than they used to have.

-->
@RationalMadman

Interesting how you made the same claim in our debate and I've yet to see you actually rebuke my argument against it. You're bad at keepin' your promises.

-->
@TheUnderdog

Unfortunately, that's a question I cannot answer. It's best left up to experts to review data (which I don't believe exists in abundance yet) regarding muscle-fat distributions, lactate threshold, rate of muscle gain, etc... to decide that and for policy changes to follow. However, as a general answer, the majority of effects from Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT), excluding the use of progesterone (an optional supplement to anti-androgens and estradiol which anecdotal evidence suggests may increase breast maximum growth, but has potential side effects [the use of which also lacks data]), will come no later than 5 years after the beginning of treatment on average. Certain aspects can reach their maximum no later than 2 years on average (ex: breast growth).

You can find more information about HRT here:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy
https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy

-->
@Nyxified

How much time should trans females go through hormone therapy? I don’t know too much about this.

-->
@Bones

Fallon Fox broke a part of her opponent's skull in the women's UFC, yes. What you leave out is that a) injuries to sections of the skull are not an uncommon occurrence in MMA[1][2][3], b) her cisgender colleagues have, at times, outperformed her[2] and, the image I believe you're referencing came from a fight that did not even involve Fallon Fox and occurred years after her last fight[3], and c) I in no way endorse trans women who just came out be given the right to immediately compete at the PROFESSIONAL level, since that is obviously unfair. I believe that after years of hormone therapy, at which point a person's muscle-fat distribution and hormones have changed to a level that could be seen in a cisgender female (and often is with women at the professional level of any sport), that is when I believe it is not an unfair advantage[4]. I'll leave it to later in this debate to go further in depth.

Sources:
1: "Incidence of Injury in Professional MMA Competitions" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3863915/
2: "Finding the truth about transgender athletes in women's sports" https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading
3: "Social media posts mislead about transgender MMA fighter's injuries to opponents" https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/
4: "Debunking "Unfair Advantage" Myths About Trans Athletes" https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/

-->
@Nyxified

He ain't capping. There's a reason Fallon Fox broke his opponent's skull in the women UFC. Literally. Tamika Brents had her brain dribbling out of her nose after that fight.

-->
@RationalMadman

If there were clown emojis on this website, I would use them right now.

Anyone who is Con to this topic doesn't give the slightest shit about female-sex athletes and their achievements.

-->
@Wylted

I like to think that I am, haha. I'm happy to have the chance to have a discussion such as this one!

-->
@Nyxified

I am happy a trans person accepted this debate. It makes me feel, you may be more knowledgeable about the subject than an average opponent would be

-->
@Intelligence_06

I respect you for bringing that up. Intersex people are a very important thing to consider in debate such as this one.

The REAL question is: What happens if an intersex person suddenly becomes fit and decides to join a sport?

-->
@Wylted

I live on the east coast. Travelling to Missouri takes roughly 2 days worth of travel by car. Trans track meets can take place on the weekends so the competitors can leave Friday, spend Saturday and early Sunday travelling, compete Sunday, spend Monday coming back and they resume activities on Tuesday or Wednesday.