Instigator / Pro
4
1500
rating
25
debates
42.0%
won
Topic
#3619

Islam vs Christianity

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
7
1706
rating
560
debates
68.13%
won
Description

I, Rayhan16, am on the side of Islam. I would like to debate someone who is on the side of Christianity. This debate is about which one is the truest religion.

Round 1
Pro
#1
This is a debate on which religion, makes the most sense, with the most logic and the most intellect. 

Islam (rayhan16) and Christianity (RationalMadman)

Christianity

A religion which believes in the trinity. A religion which believes in the Bible and a religion which believes in salvation to heaven or to face the consequences of hell. 

I will start with the trinity

Trinity

One of the most spoken about idea within the Christian viewpoint. It is the belief that 'the Father', 'the Son', 'the Holy Spirit' are all God yet they are not each other. Logically this makes no sense. And I am not saying if it doesn't make sense, it is not true. But I will debunk this totally. The belief that Jesus is God is totally absurd. Jesus was a human, who was born from a woman, at one point inside a woman. Then he spread a message from God. He ate, he drank, he slept, he went to the toilet. He worshipped the father. Now can God have God? Of course not, but Jesus did. Why did 'God' worship God? He cried in the garden of gethsemane, he wept and he asked for salvation from the crucifixion. He said 'let it be your will, not mine'. So Jesus could not even save himself from the crucifixion and he is God? He prostrated like Muslims do today, he never told anyone to worship him. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God. So all the evidence is slowly picked apart. I can give quotes too. 

‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)

So if Jesus is God then he cannot be a man. But he did man things such as eating and drinking etc. So if he is God, then it is a contradiction. And a religion that you want to say is true, cannot have any contradictions. Let me give another quote. 

‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

Here, Jesus has questioned to why a man called him good. He said only 'God' is good. If he was good, then he would not object to being called good. This is yet another proof. Let me give another quote. 

‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

I think Christians believe that God is omnipotent? And lets go to the dictionary definition of this word

unlimited power and the ability to do anything:- Dictionary.Cambridge.org- Omnipotence. 

The word unlimited means infinite. And only 1 entity can be infinite, if 2 entities are infinite, then it is a contradiction. An entity is a being. I am sure Con would say that 'the father' is 1 being. And 'the son' is another. Which means only the father can be infinite. It also says in that quote, 'my father is greater than I'. If Jesus is God, he needs to be the greatest. Jesus cannot be great and another entity be greater as this is illogical if you call Jesus God. I will give another quote. 

‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:30)

Jesus needs the father to do certain things. As Jesus is limited in his ability of power, he is not God. As God cannot be limited. It is so simple to understand. 

Jesus died for humanity, apparently. So does that mean in Christianity, it is required for a blood sacrifice to forgive? An innocent blood sacrifice may I add. Because this is not the sign of a merciful God. In Islam, when we sin, all we need to do is repent sincerely, and our sin will be forgiven. There is a difference here. In Islam, forgiveness is given. However in Christianity, payment is required (blood payment) to forgive. I thought God was supposed to be omnibenevolent?

Bible 

The Bible is a great talking point. First of all, there are a different number of books in each countries Bible. For example 

The Protestant Bible has 66 books
The Roman Catholic Bible has 73 books
The Eastern Orthodox Bible has 78 books
The Ethiopic Bible has more than 80 books

And there are also many more countries with a different number of books. 

Secondly, who wrote the first 4 gospels? 

I am sure, Con can admit that he does not know. The authors of the Bible are unknown. Anonymous. Who is Luke? Who is John? Who is Matthew? Who is Mark? Why are humans writing the Bible in the first place? It is obvious that the Bible is not the word of God. Some Christians like to say 'inspired word of God' but there are contradictions, errors, copyist errors, all which I will provide. 

Why is a religion with unknown authors of its Holy Book right? Humans are prone to error. They make mistakes. I want to ask the question, lets see if Con knows the answer. All questions which I want him to answer and not avoid will be in bold. 

Where was the Bible in the 1-3 century?
Who are the authors of the 4 gospels?
Do you deny that the Bible was written by humans?
Do you deny there are errors in the Bible?

Now the reason why I am passionate on the Bible containing errors in it is very simple. A book from God cannot have any sort of errors in it. Full stop. 

Challenge 1

I would like to challenge Con to find me 1 contradiction in the Quran. If he successfully does so, I will leave Islam. 

Bible errors and contradictions

All quotes are from Biblehub.com. All quotes are from KJV as this is the most popular.

Ecclesiastes 7:20-For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
Romans 3:23-for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Matthew 28:8-So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.
Luke 24:9-Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
Mark 16:8-So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

1 John 4:12-No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
Exodus 33:11-So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

These are only 3. I can provide way more in round 2/3/4. 

I advise Con to answer all the contradictions. I will analyse and judge the answer. 

Islam

Now we can get to Islam. 

Islam is a religion which follows a book (Quran). Jesus is a loved Prophet, so is David, so is Abraham and Moses and Job etc. Muhammed (PBUH) is the last and final messenger.

Quran
 
I will speak more about the miracles in the next rounds. This is just an overview

-Quran has never been changed
-Quran is the word of God
-No contradictions in the Quran
-No errors or copious errors in the Quran

This is actually the opposite of the Bible, which has been corrupted and changed. 

I would like Con to bring me any contradiction in the Quran, I will refute it
I want Con to also bring me evidence that the Quran has been changed, I will refute it

Allah  forgives all sins except 'shirk'. This is associations of partners to God, which is exactly what is happening in Christianity. Allah is the most merciful, we commit a sin, ask for forgiveness and Allah forgives the sin if we are sincere. This is Islam. A religion of peace, a religion of intellect and a religion of sense. 

Not much to say on Islam. It is up to Con, to prove Christianity is true and Islam is false. I have given the challenges. I admit that I carry the burden of proof but I think I have proved Christianity wrong anyway. Now I hope Con answers all my questions. 

-Quran is a book from God. 

The Quran could not be from anything other than God. 3 options. God, devil, man. If it was from man, then it would have many errors in it, such as what is in the Bible. However no, it has none, has been preserved for 1400 years. Obviously humans are prone to making mistakes, they already have done for the Bible. The Quran does not contain any. Second option, Devil. If the Quran was from the devil, why does it say to seek refuge from the devil. Why does it tell humans to be kind to parents, to not backbite, to not lie, to not fall into the wrong path, to give charity, to respect women etc. Surely the devil would encourage humans to worship him? Nope. And if Con brings the 'satanic verses', they do not exist in the Quran. Last option is God. No mistakes, no errors, and lots of miracles. I will again, show these miracles in the next few rounds. How could a book which is 1400 years old describe the big bang, the expansion of the universe, how old the earth is, extra-terrestrial life etc. 


I look forward to Con's argument and response to my questions. 




Con
#2
I concede Trinity being less sensible than one Allah and with regards to contradictions there's a lot of metaphorical stuff to explain but I'll prefer offensive as in pointing out contradictions in the Qur'an.

I will properly rebuke Pro in Round 2 because I know that Pro (in other debates) enjoys fusing rebuttals with original and always blames his opponent if they don't rebuke everything Round 1, I admitted what I concede, the Trinity is pretty nonsensical compared to a singular Allah figure but then again we must observe nonsense in the Qur'an.

This debate isn't only about which is less or more nonsensical, it's also about which is a better one to adhere to and truer to the ideal way of life.

I'd prefer to leave 'contradictions' as merely one section. There are plenty of things to focus on and many have contradictions in Islam as part of them..

1: The problem of Free Will and evil...

There is a problem in both Islam and Christianity because the god entity is onnipotent and omniscient so it is knowingly allowing evil to occur but there are 2 key, severe differences that make Islam worse in this regard.

  1. Allah is proudly referred to as a 'great deceiver' said to know evil plans before they are lain, to out-deceive and out-crook the most cunning and vicious of crooks. Meanwhile, the Christian God is not exactly applauded for the ability to see evil before it occurs, it is merely an ability that's mentioned and it's much more about you being aware he sees it and needing to repent. With Allah the atmosphere and nature is as follows (I will give you 3 examples from Qur'an):
Qur'an 3:54
Literal: And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.[2]

Qur'an 7:99
Literal: Did they secure God's scheme/deceit ? So no(one) trusts God's scheme/deceit except the nation the losers.[3]

Qur'an 8:30
Literal: And when those who disbelieved deceive/scheme at you to affix/affirm you, or kill you, or bring you out, and they scheme/deceive , and God deceives/schemes and God (is) best (of) the deceivers/schemers.[4]

Qur'an 10:21
Literal: And if We made the people taste/experience mercy from after calamity/disastrous distress touched them, then for them (is) cheatery/deceit/schemes in Our verses/evidences . Say: "God (is) quicker/faster (in) cunning/scheming , that Our messengers write what you cheat/ deceive/scheme."[5]

Qur'an 13:42
Literal: And those from before them had cheated/deceived/schemed, so to God (is) all the cheatery/deceit/scheme. He knows what every self gains/acquires , and the disbelievers will know to whom (is) the house's/home's end/turn (result).[6]

I warn that my opponent will always say if a website's agenda is against Islam but ignore the fact they are quoting the most holy and sacred scripture in all of Islam (the Qur'an).

I know my opponent will do this as he does this every single debate when he feels he can disredit a source, not realising he is disrediting the Qur'an being quoted...

Now, he is welcome to bring up Christian verses, I assert none pride God on the ability to out-deceive deceivers merely mention God is capable of perceiving it before it happens and the problem goes beyond that...

that was part 1,


2. Allah is known to utilise evil and be brutal, sadistic, merciless and terror-bringing. The Christian God is just as much about being loved and respected as feared, whereas Allah is much more about being feared and surrendered to. This makes one wonder what 'evil' and toxic attitudes even are in Islam.

[8.10] And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[8.11] When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[8.18] This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.
[8.19] If you demanded a judgment, the judgment has then indeed come to you; and if you desist, it will be better for you; and if you turn back (to fight), We (too) shall turn back, and your forces shall avail you nothing, though they may be many, and (know) that Allah is with the believers.
[8.20] O you who believe! obey Allah and His Apostle and do not turn back from Him while you hear.
[8.21] And be not like those who said, We hear, and they did not obey.
[8.22] Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand.
[8.23] And if Allah had known any good in them He would have made them hear, and if He makes them hear they would turn back while they withdraw.
[8.24] O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Apostle when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered.
[8.25] And fear an affliction which may not smite those of you in particular who are unjust; and know that Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.26] And remember when you were few, deemed weak in the land, fearing lest people might carry you off by force, but He sheltered you and strengthened you with His aid and gave you of the good things that you may give thanks.
[8.27] O you who believe! be not unfaithful to Allah and the Apostle, nor be unfaithful to your trusts while you know.

Allah is said to bring evil unto evildoers mercilessly and it doesn't seem to be the hell in this life.

While Iblis in Islam seems to mimic Christianity's dynamic with God and Satan, there seems to be a fundamental issue when it comes to what Shait'an and evil Jinn are...

[2.14] And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.
[2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.
[2.102] And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.
[2.168] O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
[2.208] O you who believe! enter into submission one and all and do not follow the footsteps of Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[2.257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
[2.268] Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins you to be niggardly, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
[2.275] Those who swallow down usury cannot arise except as one whom Shaitan has prostrated by (his) touch does rise. That is because they say, trading is only like usury; and Allah has allowed trading and forbidden usury. To whomsoever then the admonition has come from his Lord, then he desists, he shall have what has already passed, and his affair is in the hands of Allah; and whoever returns (to it)-- these arc the inmates of the fire; they shall abide in it.

[3.36] So when she brought forth, she said: My Lord! Surely I have brought it forth a female-- and Allah knew best what she brought forth-- and the male is not like the female, and I have named it Marium, and I commend her and her offspring into Thy protection from the accursed Shaitan.
[3.155] (As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met, only the Shaitan sought to cause them to make a slip on account of some deeds they had done, and certainly Allah has pardoned them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
[3.175] It is only the Shaitan that causes you to fear from his friends, but do not fear them, and fear Me if you are believers.

[4.38] And those who spend their property (in alms) to be seen of the people and do not believe in Allah nor in the last day; and as for him whose associate is the Shaitan, an evil associate is he!
[4.60] Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Shaitan, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error.
[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
[4.83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few
[4.117] They do not call besides Him on anything but idols, and they do not call on anything but a rebellious Shaitan.
[4.119] And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss.
[4.120] He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive.

If you read through this, there are several parallels and consistencies between how Shaitan work(s) and Allah works. The only difference is Allah is the correct one to fear, the correct one to surrender to and the correct one to blindly adhere to. Shaitan offer you the very same promises that Allah does, the same encouragements and ways of pulling you to your knees as you cave into them but they are the wrong to give into.

It is like Allah is the alpha gangster godfather and they merely are recruiters for enemy gangs.

This fits in with the whole approach of Islam to other religions but that isn't much better in Christianity (though in Christianity you're encouraged to forgive and not judge them too harshly, in Islam you are told to directly fight them).


This leads me swiftly into the next dynamic issue


~~~~

Islam is about surrender, submission and fear. Christianity is about forgiveness, repentance and love.

There seems to be a fundamental issue with Islam's idea of how to rehabilitate those led astray. This stems from the fact that Islam itself is surrender/submission to God. Muhammad impregnated a 9 year old when he felt like it, he stoned people, crowned a psychopathic conqueror known as Khalid ibn al-Walid as the 'sword of Allah' and happened to meet Walid while Walid slaughtered his own men mercilessly and met Muhammad and decided to join rather than fight, the cause of Islam since it blended well with his merciless ways.

The idea in Islam is to hurt and scare people until the fear has made them cave into Islam. That is literally how every single aspect of war vs peace and verses involving both are setup, it even reflects how a husband is told to treat his wife, ignore her, demean her emotions, deprive her of sex and even strike her until she learns who the 'boss' is:

Sahih International, at Quran.com:[8]
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.[9]

The entirety of the Qur'an is about instilling fear, as long as you are being a brute in the name of Allah, it is considered okay (but you must stop when they cave into Islam as you see fit/correct and not continue the abuse past that point). 

153. Since the ummah has been invested with world leadership, a set of necessary directives is now provided for its guidance. Before laying down these directives it seemed necessary to caution the Muslims that the office which had been conferred on them was indeed no bed of roses. On the contrary, it was a great and perilous responsibility. Once they undertook it, they would be subjected to all kinds of afflictions, put to all kinds of trials and tribulations and made to bear all kinds of deprivation. If, however, the Muslims persisted along the path of God despite the perils they would be rewarded with God's favour in full measure.

(2:154) And do not say of those who are killed in the way of Allah that they are dead; they are alive even though you have no knowledge of their life.155

(2:155) We shall certainly test you by afflicting you with fear, hunger, loss of properties and lives and fruits. Give glad tidings, then, to those who remain patient;

(2:156) those who when any affliction smites them, they say: “Verily, we belong to Allah, and it is to Him that we are destined to return.”156

(2:157) Upon them will be the blessings and mercy of their Lord, and it is they who are rightly guided.

(2:158) Surely, al-Safa and al-Marwah are the symbols of Allah. Hence, whoever performs Hajj (Full Pilgrimage)157 to the House (of Allah) or makes 'Umrah (Minor Pilgrimage), will find that it is no sin for him to ambulate between the two.158 And whoever does a good work voluntarily159 should know that Allah is Appreciative, All-Knowing.

You simply will not find verses genuinely enabling terrorists as I have quoted earlier in the Round and here now, in Christianity. You will not find it because Christianity is not structured in a way that runs on aggressive fear, perhaps passive fear in the sense of fearing failing to repent in time to reach heaven but doesn't encourage brutality to spread. This is rooted in the fact that the god of Christianity is not quite like the god of Judaism before it (this is what changes with the New Testament) nor Allah after it (or in competition with it, depends how you look at it). The god of Christianity has a larger capacity for forgiveness. This is central to the religion and a theme throughout.

If you want to build a society, you are better of going with Christianity than Islam. Just look in 2022 how much the Sharia cultures are held behind both scientifically and socially due to the rigidity of Islam and way it runs on fear and censorship.

The Sharia punishment for Muslims who drop their faith is death and the confiscation of their property.
The reason why is curious.

The Muslim Brotherhood’s Abdul Qader ‘Oudah explains it in “Criminal Law of Islam, Volume III”: “If this offence is taken lightly, the collective system of Islam may collapse. The severe punishment laid down for it aims at the total elimination of apostasy on the one hand and warning and preventing others from committing it.”

Opposition to Islam must be silenced at all costs in case the ideology can’t withstand free thought.

Secular Muslims reject Sharia censorship; but Islamists embrace and promote it.

{mosads}That is why they kill cartoonists for drawing Muhammad, or end criticism with blasphemy laws now cunningly called “vilification of religion” and disguised as protection against “anti-Muslim bigotry.”
 
And now they have silenced the most famous and celebrated ex-Muslim thinker of our time: Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
It isn’t happening in Riyadh or Tehran, but in Sydney, Australia, where she is supposed to be on a speaking tour right now. She isn’t, because of the threat of death and violence. It just isn’t safe for her there.

The organisers of her tour, Think Inc, have been harassed. Their insurers were contacted and warned of trouble. The venues where she was to appear were told there would be protests.
The Australian reported that Syed Murtaza Hussain of the Council for the Prevention of Islamophobia Inc. told Festival Hall in Melbourne there would be 5,000 demonstrators outside the venue.

Islamist political party Hizb ut-Tahrir told a recent meeting in Sydney that in their view Islam sanctions the killing of ex-Muslims.

“In Islam (it) is clear that apostates do attract capital punishment, we don’t shy away from that,” said spokesman Uthman Badar.

With a perceived religious sanction for violence, the prospect of a 5,000-strong protest of Islamists and their allies suddenly becomes a whole lot more dangerous.

The Australian Federal Police appear to be doing nothing, thus sending a strong message to the community that Australia tolerates the Islamist bullying of ex-Muslims.

But it is not enough for Islamists to make it unsafe for Ayaan Hirsi Ali to tour Australia and speak: They want to destroy her reputation so that she will be de-platformed and discredited.
To do this, they are disguising intolerance as “Muslim feminism” and using it to slander Ayaan’s important intellectual contribution.

The day Ayaan was expected to fly in, a professionally produced propaganda video was posted on Facebook. The almost 3-minute video, credited to Blueprint Studios, features a variety of hijabis blaming Ayaan for “helping to create a world full of hate” that puts Muslims in danger. They accuse her of using the language of patriarchy, misogyny and white supremacy to profit from prejudice.

Anyone familiar with Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s life and writings knows that this is untrue. In fact, the Somali-born ex-Muslim champions free speech, human rights and lives under 24-hour guard for speaking out as an apostate. She founded the AHA Foundation to end honour violence and support its victims.

Melbourne restaurateur Hana Assafiri posted the anti-Ayaan video to her Facebook page as well as appearing in it. Her details also appear as the media contact on a Change.org petition opposing Ayaan’s visit. Ms. Assafiri has not visibly spoken out against the Sharia death penalty for ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

It is difficult to see how it is Muslims rather than ex-Muslims who are in danger in tolerant Australia when it is only ex-Muslims who are prevented from speaking and being heard, and when Islamist groups such as Hizb ut-Tahrir can support the killing of ex-Muslims without a protester or a police officer in sight.

But it is instructive to note how Sharia censorship is now advanced in the disguise of “Muslim feminism.”
Round 2
Pro
#3
I'll prefer offensive as in pointing out contradictions in the Qur'an.
Lovely. Lets get into it. 

Allah is proudly referred to as a 'great deceiver'
This is just untrue. This entire argument has been refuted my me truly, in another debate. I just do not know why Con keeps on going at it, over and over again. It has been refuted on google, even on Quora. But still, Con is persistent. 

This is just a matter of translation.
'And the disbelievers made a plan ˹against Jesus˺, but Allah also planned—and Allah is the best of planners.'- 3:54. 

I think this puts it to bed. The word 'mkr' in Arabic means planned but can also mean deceived. We take the positive meaning. The reason for this is very simple. 

The word 'deceived' is not in any of the verses because the Arabic does not match if it does. For example, 35:43 states 'plotting of the evil' and uses 'mkr' in it. Why does it need to say 'evil' if it already means deceives? Because it needs to add a negative connotation to make the sentence make sense. Otherwise, it would be positive. It is all Arabic my friend. And I doubt you know how to understand Arabic anyway, due to your negative misconceptions. So the entire argument of 'deceivers' is in the bin. I don't even need to look at the other quotes because 'mkr' means planned unless given a negative word that follows. Case dismissed. 

I warn that my opponent will always say if a website's agenda is against Islam but ignore the fact they are quoting the most holy and sacred scripture in all of Islam (the Qur'an).
No, they are not quoting the Quran. If they were quoting the Quran, they would have quoted it from the actual website 'Quran.com'. Or another legitimate Quranic website. But they are altering the meanings and words, so no, they are not quoting the Quran, showing the websites bias. I love how Con has already pointed out the agenda (in my view). It is almost as if he doesn't want me to even go there. Well I am. Top left of the website, donate button. Click it, directs to a page that donates to ex Muslims. I will carry on saying the same thing over and over again, because Con just does not get it. This site is not a reliable one. Mistranslations, misinterpretations, misquotations, altering, scheming, changing words and picks and chooses the lot. Disgrace. 

Now, he is welcome to bring up Christian verses, I assert none pride God on the ability to out-deceive deceivers merely mention God is capable of perceiving it before it happens and the problem goes beyond that...
Are you saying the Bible does not say that 'God is a deceiver?'. No worries let me give you some quotes. 

Biblehub.com

'Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God in whom thou trustiest deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.' 2 Kings 19:10

'O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.'- Jeremiah 20:7

'Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, Saying, ‘You shall have peace,’ Whereas the sword reaches to the heart.”'- Jeremiah 4:10

Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”- 1 Kings 22:23

So it is clear that the Bible describes God as a deceiver and deceiving people. 

Now Con has sent a lot of verses, most of which I will not respond to. Not because I know not, but because there is nothing wrong with them. Of course we fear Allah, we love Him and fear Him. He is the one who gave us everything. And to Him shall we return. He will decide if we go to heaven or hell, it is Him. Not us, Him. So why would you not fear God? Your masculinity is getting in the way? Your arrogance? Your blindness? Obviously fearing something is not a bad thing. If some humans fear spiders, they are scared of them, of what they can do to you. This is the same with God. We are not scared of anything other than God, because our fate lies with Him. Also, in Christianity, God is also feared. Let me present some quotes which directly contradict what you say about a 'loving God'. 

'You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name.'- Deuteronomy 6:13
'The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.'- Proverbs 8:13
'There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil'.- Job 1:1
'And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.”- Exodus 20:20

There are more examples. But my point has been made. Double standards. Not that fearing God is wrong. 

whereas Allah is much more about being feared and surrendered to
Really? You don't think Muslims love God? Look at this website 


Of course Muslims love God. He gave us life and He can take it away. He has 99 names that He has provided. I will give some as examples. The most merciful. The most kind. The most Just. The most benevolent. The most powerful. The most loving. I can go on...

I do acknowledge that the Bible also states to love God. But this is a misconception about the Quran, of course Muslims love God. This RationalMadman is not so rational after all. He is a Madman though.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

This is a war verse. And I think we all know what the Holy War Criteria is. 

Con, why don't you quote verses from the actual Quran? Or Quranic websites which are accurate in translation? 


While Iblis in Islam seems to mimic Christianity's dynamic with God and Satan
I don't get this one. You think Islam seems to mimic Christianity's dynamic? Satan was arrogant, therefore dwells in hell, making people the wrongdoers. The entire story of Adam and Satan is another topic, but mimic means to copy word for word, action for action. This is not true. 

Quick fun fact. In Christianity, Eve is blamed for eating off the tree. In Islam, both Adam and Eve are. 
Another one. In Christianity, women are told to keep silent in Church. In Islam, women can lead prayers to other women. 
Lets carry on. 

Con keeps on giving random quotes, I don't get it. What is bad about them? At least make a point that refutes some of my arguments, as you said you were going to do at the start of the round.  Your not slipping today. 

I would say, every single Islamic misconception has been refuted to this day. Whether by google, Quora, scholars or common sense. This is not mimicking Christianity, as that is the opposite. 

No one knows who the authors of the 4 gospels are. 
No one knows why the earliest manuscript of the new testament was dated to the 4th century opposed to the 1st. 
No one knows what the trinity is and where it is stated in the Bible. If it is such a fundamental thing, why is it not explicitly said? 
No one knows how to answer these errors and contradictions in the Bible
No one knows how to answer the copyist errors in the Bible. 
No one knows why the Bible contains lies
No one knows how to describe the Holy Spirit actually exists.
Everyone knows that Christianity is changing to fit societal standards, so it is not the true religion as that always stands by its beliefs. 

If you read through this, there are several parallels and consistencies between how Shaitan work(s) and Allah works. The only difference is Allah is the correct one to fear, the correct one to surrender to and the correct one to blindly adhere to. Shaitan offer you the very same promises that Allah does, the same encouragements and ways of pulling you to your knees as you cave into them but they are the wrong to give into.
What Con has said here is utter crap. Shaytaan gives false hope. He cannot give you anything physically. God has made the universe, the plants, the trees, the animals, us humans, the sun, the moon, the planets, the solar system, the fish in the seas and butterflies in the bushes. Allah has made these. What has Shaytaan made? Nothing. Case closed. 

This fits in with the whole approach of Islam to other religions but that isn't much better in Christianity (though in Christianity you're encouraged to forgive and not judge them too harshly, in Islam you are told to directly fight them).
In Islam we are encouraged to forgive as well. But this narrative doesn't fit your one, Moving on. 



31:17-18

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately. 

HM? What is this about?

So basically, kill all boys. Kill all women who have had sex with a man. But keep for yourselves the 'YOUNG' 'GIRLS' who are virgins and basically rape them?

Is this what Christianity promotes? 

By the way, a girl is someone who has not reached the age of puberty according to google. So, questionable... very questionable from the Bible

Islam is about surrender, submission and fear. Christianity is about forgiveness, repentance and love.
I have already proved this to be wrong, so we can dismiss this guy's points. 

There seems to be a fundamental issue with Islam's idea of how to rehabilitate those led astray. This stems from the fact that Islam itself is surrender/submission to God. Muhammad impregnated a 9 year old when he felt like it, he stoned people, crowned a psychopathic conqueror known as Khalid ibn al-Walid as the 'sword of Allah' and happened to meet Walid while Walid slaughtered his own men mercilessly and met Muhammad and decided to join rather than fight, the cause of Islam since it blended well with his merciless ways.
A paragraph like no other. Sarcasm, Like every other. Wrong. 

Disgusting in every sense, the misconceptions this Vile 'RationalMadman' has is truly bad. 

You know, if we sin, and we repent, God forgives us. But Christians need a blood sacrifice for God to forgive them. The difference is monumental. 
If we think of doing a bad deed, and don't do it, we get a reward. If we think of doing a good deed, and we don't do it, we get a reward. 

There are many reasons to why Aisha got married at 6 and consummated at 9 to the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). I have already covered these in various other debates. 

The lies of this guy are too much. I am about to laugh whilst writing this. Truly amazing how much NotSoRationalMadMan can twist things. Even Khalid, what did he do wrong? Obviously he reverted to Islam, so you can give me the list of things he did wrong after reverting. Keep in mind, whatever he did on a battlefield, in response to an attack etc don't count, as you know a lot about the Holy War Criteria, I am assuming. 

The idea in Islam is to hurt and scare people until the fear has made them cave into Islam
No compulsion in religion. 

4:3 The Striking Verse

A lot of misconceptions. Again, I have covered this is many other debates. Men cannot cause pain to their wives, nor hit the face, nor leave a mark. It is a little 'tap'. So this nullifies everything Con has to say about this verse. 

You simply will not find verses genuinely enabling terrorists as I have quoted earlier in the Round and here now, in Christianity.
You will find verses that talk about keeping virgins for your own self. 
You will find verses about 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' etc
You will find a verse about Jesus calling a woman a dog

However, there are no terrorist enabling verses in the Quran nor Hadith. Obviously, Con cannot get this, thus he resorts to giving cherry picked quotes with no context. And I am also sure that Con knows exactly what the Holy War Criteria is. 

If you want to build a society, you are better of going with Christianity than Islam. Just look in 2022 how much the Sharia cultures are held behind both scientifically and socially due to the rigidity of Islam and way it runs on fear and censorship.
Wrong. 

In Conclusion

Con has further showed why he is incapable of giving good points, as he continues to give misquotations. 

Thanks. 
Con
#4
I will make this very, very simple.

In Christianity, the god is just as likely or unlikely as Allah, except that for Allah, you can get there by being brutal, savage and impulsive as long as you can define it as being done in the Quran's name.

In the meantime, in the Bible, there is essentially nothing that encourages direct severe violence.

Where the Bible never once suggests that slaying people in God's name isn't murder and outruled, the Qur'an explicitly suggests this and alludes to ongoing war as optimal and ideal until everyone has keeled out of sheer fear and stockholm syndrome adherence to Islam.

I would like my opponent to explain how this fundamental clash between the Bible and Qur'an is to be addressed.

The Qur'an not changing over time isn't a point in favour of Islam, it's a sign that the Qur'an is rigid and inflexible despite all reality. The Bible hasn'thad to change much at all anyway, Pro has yet to explictly show us how the Bible severely changed in the translations even one iota more than the Qur'an has.

Both gods have a problem as they created evil and engineered it but only the Bible explains that it's always wrong to give into the temptation of it, while the Qur'an leaves open an option of giving into it if it's done in the name and furthering of Islam.
Round 3
Pro
#5
RationalMadman says he will make this very, very simple. Lets see about that, and his double standards. 

In Christianity, the god is just as likely or unlikely as Allah, except that for Allah, you can get there by being brutal, savage and impulsive as long as you can define it as being done in the Quran's name.
I really do not get this opponent. It baffles me on how people like him are so close minded. I have said time and time again, every single round, every single debate why this conclusion is wrong. He does not listen. Every single debate I have had with him, he keeps on bringing up the same things that I have already said are untrue with evidence. Whenever I bring up a valid point, he ignores it. I don't think in my entire history of debates, did he have a round where he answered every single thing. As absurd as it is, these people will not change. They won't change at all. Always will have some sort of bias, an illness that will cause them not to change. The fact of the matter is, Islam is a peaceful religion. Islam does not advocate terrorism, nor violence unless if it is the last proposition. How many times have I brought up the Holy War Theory? It dismisses all of his points. But no one will get this. Even the outside people of this debate, obviously I do not mean everyone,  but I have had people blindly following him and his debates because he is not a Muslim and I am. The word 'Muslim' has connotations of brutalisation and violence and terror to these kind of people. The maths does not add up. How many people on this planet? Around 8 billion. How many Muslims on this planet? Around 2 billion. That is 1/4 of the population. Now you are telling me, that 1/4 of the earth's population are following a religion of violence, compulsion and terror? The 1/4 of your fellow humanity are following a book which tells people to 'kill wherever you go' even though this quote is not in context, people still say the Quran teaches Muslims to kill non Muslims wherever you find them; not knowing it is a war verse. The maths does not add up. I repeated this and I will echo this. The maths does not add up. Why is it, that if a book of a religion tells people to kill non believers wherever you go, a book that tells people to not be friends with non Muslims, a book that tells people to cause violence wherever you go, the people following that book, do not follow these verses? But they do follow the verses which tell you to pray, to give to charity, to go to pilgrimage, to be kind to your parents, to treat all with respect and I can go on. Surely this would be a double standard? But again, the fact of the matter is very simple. These violence verses all refer to war. And to those that don't, they have a context. They have a  meaning behind it. They are fully explainable. 

Why is it, that my family, first cousins, second cousins, grandparents, mom, dad etc all live without killing people wherever we find them? Why? Because these are war verses. 

I have to reiterate it every single debate. Voters who are reading this, barney, oromagi, Ehyeh etc, you all need to understand that these verses are war verses. I cannot keep on saying it over and over again. It is a waste of time. Those who don't want to listen are the ignorant ones. Those who keep on challenging these verses with no basis and a closed mind are the ignorant ones. 

Especially those who say they live in an Arabic country or the Middle east. Or a country that enforces Sharia Law. And? You could live wherever you want, you could understand Arabic to the fullest, but then claim to know that the Quran has errors, or that Sharia Law in unfair and that kind of stuff. It is all untrue. Challenge me if you want, maybe I cannot answer every single detail in the history of Islam and the linguistic breakdown of the Quran and the Arabic language in general and every element in the Sharia Law without googling these things. But the main thing is this. This is how Islam is different to Christianity. Islam is a perfect religion. Christianity is not. Of course we follow some of the same prophets, some of the same principles, but not fully. Of course we know that Con has dismissed the trinity and he will get done for heresy if he is challenging, from a Christian ideology that the trinity does not make sense. He will get ridiculed, absolutely slaughtered if he says that to the Christians. Of course I know he is not Christian, and the funny thing is, he is arguing from that viewpoint! This clearly demonstrates that he hates Islam to a degree of defending a religion that has almost identical viewpoints to the 'bad' ones he pointed out the Quran has. Of course there is the famous 'eye for eye' quote. There is that famous 'keep all young girls for yourselves and evidently rape them' verse and many more where they came from. Isn't this is a bit contradictory to Con's argument? He states that Islam teaches these things, however Christianity actually does. I have proven why Islam does not teach these, but Con has not proven why Christianity does not teach these. And I bet he won't in the future rounds as well!

In the meantime, in the Bible, there is essentially nothing that encourages direct severe violence.
He used 'in the Bible'. He used the word 'nothing. 


Eye for eye. 

Where the Bible never once suggests that slaying people in God's name isn't murder and out ruled, the Qur'an explicitly suggests this and alludes to ongoing war as optimal and ideal until everyone has keeled out of sheer fear and Stockholm syndrome adherence to Islam.
Muslims cannot attack a nation until the nation attacks first. I don't get this keeled out of fear thing. Why is this a bad thing? Muslims fear God. Please tell me why this is a bad thing?

I would like my opponent to explain how this fundamental clash between the Bible and Qur'an is to be addressed.
Even if I do, Con won't be happy. Alas, I may as well. 

The Qur'an not changing over time isn't a point in favour of Islam, it's a sign that the Qur'an is rigid and inflexible despite all reality. The Bible hasn't had to change much at all anyway, Pro has yet to explicitly show us how the Bible severely changed in the translations even one iota more than the Qur'an has.
My brother raised a very good point, A very very good point. 

First he said, the Quran not changing over time isn't a point in favour of Islam. He acknowledges that the Quran has not changed and is still the same from 1400 years ago. But he says this is not a good thing because essentially 'it does not fit into this society'. Society is changing every day. One minute being gay is frowned upon, the next a man can identify as a paedophile. In the future, incest will be allowed, people will say 'don't judge him, love is love' etc etc.  We are all being given this narrative to identify as whatever you want. Bob down the road can identify as a rapist? Then they say, only identify as something that does not hurt anyone. But Bob thinks he is not hurting anyone. And then they will say he clearly is. And then Bob will say, I identify as a man who thinks he is not hurting anyone. This entire identifying as whatever you want. Of course it is subjective. My entire point is whatever morals THIS society includes, are mostly all subjective. In a few years time, people will have different morals. I think people are going to be even more of a 'snowflake' and easily offended. 

Con is clearly thinking that society is perfect when it is far from it. Islam teaches that drugs are not allowed. Islam teaches that sexual immorality is not allowed. Islam teaches that smoking and alcohol is not allowed. Islam teaches that murder and rape and paedophilia is not allowed. This is all objective. In society, it is subjective. The rules will keep on changing. Why would I want to live in a system where the morals, the rules and the objectives all change. Why on earth is this the ideal solution to mankind? You can see for yourself. It is a mess. It is all a mess. So the point that you raise in this instance, is actually not a good point. I lied in my very first sentence,  Astagfirullah. 

Then he says to give him evidence of the Bible changing. 

Go and ask Christian scholars themselves, 

Dr. Bart D. Ehrman says it has been changed, one of the most prolific Bible scholars to date. 

I can give many examples. 

Of course Christians think that their Bible is perfect. If it is not perfect, it wouldn't be the word of God, would it? Many, many mistakes. I have given the contradictions, the copious errors all above. You have not answered a single one. So, the answer to the question that you have been looking for, is right above. Look up, it is in bold. Right there. 

Now, Christianity also speaks about LGBTQ. It is not allowed in the Bible. I am sure you know what verses I am talking about, I won't even waste my time quoting these as Con won't respond. Mainstream Christianity allows these acts to go ahead. Even the Pope of all people allows it. 

Christianity also speaks about getting drunk. Mainstream Christians do not care, do not follow theses verses, and always go on a night out to the club to find a boy/girl to have sexual relations with every single Saturday night. These are all normalised actions. The Bible clearly says not the do them, however Christians do not listen. 

The Quran on the other hand, is perfect. Con has not successfully challenged it. He can try, but he will always get refuted then have no answer in the next round. 

 even one iota more than the Qur'an has.
Contradiction from Con here. 

First he states 'The Qur'an not changing over time'. Then he states 'changed in the translations even one iota more than the Qur'an has'. Which is it?

Both gods have a problem as they created evil and engineered it but only the Bible explains that it's always wrong to give into the temptation of it, while the Qur'an leaves open an option of giving into it if it's done in the name and furthering of Islam.
This is where the confusion lies. 

Con admits that both Gods created evil. Does this make sense to you? How can you create evil when humans have their own brain, humans live their own lives, humans have their own heart and their own conscious. How can God create evil when humans have the option to carry it out or to be nice? If everyone in the world was nice and kind to one another, both the Quran and Bible promote this in several verses, then there would be no evil in this world, apart from the metaphysical (Satan). So what would the point be there? That God created everyone to be nice? Why will it then be a subjective matter? The confusion is getting too much for me here. 

I think I have brought this point before, I will bring it again. 

If a Muslim was going to commit a sin, then doesn't do it and realises the impact it would have, or doesn't do it because he thinks it is wrong, what does he get? A reward. Not a sin, a reward. 

If a Muslim was going to do something nice for someone and is not able to do it for whatever reason, he gets a reward nonetheless. Find me a Bible verse that is remotely similar to this. 

Doing something in the name of Islam is a point which Con raises so much. So so much, it is like he is obsessed. I don't get it. 

Bismillah means  'In the name of Allah'. We say this before we eat and before we do various other things. When we say this, does Con think we say it to plot something evil? Because that is such a wrong interpretation of it. We say it to remind ourselves that God provided everything for us. 


If I was to sum up one thing Con is, it is confused. Majorly confused. This is a debate, he has not even listened to anything I have said. He dismissed every single round so far, I hope voters take this into account. 

Con
#6
Notice that part of the 'war verses' is to say that any Muslim who even befriends a Jew or a Christian is an enemy:

Sahih International: O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

This is a foundational chapter (meaning first few chapters that lay down the foundation of Islam). It isn't taken out of context at all and is in fact part of furious verses spouting a lot of anti-Jew hatred more so but definitely anti-Christian. Islam is founded on hatred and anger towards other faiths as a core tenet.

This explains how and why in their understanding of morality, you can basically be as immoral as you want as long as it's to push forth Islam against others but what is real Islam? What's a genuine vs a fake Muslim?

When the hypocrites come to you, they say: "We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah." Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed. (1)They have made their oaths a screen. Thus they hinder (others) from the path of Allah. Verily, evil is what they used to do. (2) That is because they believed, and then disbelieved; therefore their hearts are sealed, so they understand not. (3) And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May Allah curse them! How are they denying the right path (4)And when it is said to them: "Come, so that the Messenger of Allah may ask forgiveness from Allah for you," they twist their heads, and you would see them turning away their faces in pride. (5) It is equal to them whether you ask forgiveness or ask not forgiveness for them, Allah will never forgive them. Verily, Allah guides not the people who are the rebellious.(6) They are the ones who say: "Spend not on those who are with Allah's Messenger, until they desert him." And to Allah belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites comprehend not. (7) They say: "If we return to Al-Madinah, indeed the more honorable will expel therefrom the weaker." But Al-`Izzah belongs to Allah, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites know not. (8)

Quora answer, sources within it, the sources are the arabic verses in the Qur'an, for clarification these are the first few verses of Chapter 63 ~ go to page 554 here if the link doesn't directly take you to the chapter.

Now, let's explore what that verse allows. This verse about the 'Munafiq' starts to mean that if one deems another Muslim a 'fake follower' or 'hypocrite' (munafiq means both in one), one can embody Allah's wrath and hatred towards them. In fact Allah's whole vibe/theme seems to be furious and spiteful, which then makes it extremely difficult to comprehend how and why this same god can be a leader for Muslims to follow and be loving when acting out the will of.

It very often deflects to 'Allah's wrath' instead of the wrath of Muslims themselves, to sound less sinister and dangerous but I have shown you in earlier chapters that as soon as it suits them, the verses can slant to justifying your own slaying of human beings and abuse towards them as justified so long as you stopped once they adhere to Islam... Except, I just showed that it isn't just that they're Muslim, they should also not be Munafiq.

However, this inherently causes a catch-22 situation.

If one is sinning violently and brutally in order to force others into Islam, they are both a good Muslim and yet a complete Munafiq to the verses teaching love and peace. The very idea of a good Muslim is itself a Munafiq concept. Either one is too aggressive and violent to be deemed a good Muslim or one is too passive and willing to adapt to progressive, anti-Islamic values like accepting homosexuality, transgenders, equal rights for women so on and so forth.

The terrifying (good choice of word) thing to realise is a Muslim has to commit acts of war to push forth Islam and is inherently a Munafiq if they become a sheep instead of a lion/wolf type that fights for Allah's will. In other words, to be a peaceful Muslim at any time when in a place that isn't what you see as real Islam, is obviously the right thing to be, to any sane human being, however it is a Munafiq attitude.

I dare not type more or I could be seen as supporting something horrific... That, however, is what Islam supports. You see, Islam's 'state of war' is constant. You are always at war with nonbelievers in Islam, very specifically with Jews and Christians foremost.
Round 4
Pro
#7
Notice that part of the 'war verses' is to say that any Muslim who even befriends a Jew or a Christian is an enemy:

Sahih International: O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
And what is wrong about this? This is religiously the practise. Obviously you tried to con the voters (considering you are also con) to make them think that this is not a war verse. Then you are saying this. Every war that a Muslim takes part in, is a religious war. If it is not, then it is not allowed. The reason why a Muslim cannot befriend a Jew or Christian in war, is because 1400 years ago, there were wars between them. The Jews and Christians against the Muslims. And Muslims wanted to keep relationships solid with the other 2 religious groups at the expense of their own. Of course the Quran teaches Muslims to be respectful of other religious groups as well.

(6:108 for a reference)
(49:11 as well)

This is a foundational chapter (meaning first few chapters that lay down the foundation of Islam) 
This is not correct. Con has made a mistake here. The Quran is not in chronological order. Whatever is in the middle of the Quran, at the end or at the start are the foundational chapters. It is all the foundational chapters. If it talks about war at the start of the Quran, it will probably talk about it at the end. If it talks about the Prophets at the start, it will do in the end as well. 

This explains how and why in their understanding of morality, you can basically be as immoral as you want as long as it's to push forth Islam against others but what is real Islam? What's a genuine vs a fake Muslim?
Is morality changing in society? Yes. Every other week different morals get placed and people are expected to follow. My guess is in the next 10 years, incest will be allowed because 'love is love'. 

What's a genuine vs a fake Muslim?
I am glad you asked. No such thing as a fake Muslim. If a Muslim doesn't believe in Allah or that He is God or that the Prophet (PBUH) is the final messenger, he is not Muslim. So to answer your question, there is no such thing as a fake Muslim, it doesn't exist. You either are a Muslim or you are not. It is not subjective in the slightest. 

Quora answer, sources within it, the sources are the arabic verses in the Qur'an, for clarification these are the first few verses of Chapter 63 ~ go to page 554 here if the link doesn't directly take you to the chapter.
I don't get why you just can't go on the website (Quran.com) and copy it from there. 

This verse about the 'Munafiq' starts to mean that if one deems another Muslim a 'fake follower' or 'hypocrite' (munafiq means both in one), one can embody Allah's wrath and hatred towards them.
What on earth are you talking about? This madman is a silly silly man. Very silly indeed. I don't know where you got that from. Nonsense. 

May Allah curse them!
Allah will never forgive them
There is no mention of what Madman's conclusion is. A Muslim cannot tell another Muslim he is a fake follower. That is the first thing, if one does this, you are denouncing someone else's faith, which is haram. But then it clearly says where I quote, 'May Allah curse them!'. Only Allah knows and only Allah can judge. So this entire conclusion is silly. 

I am seeing a pattern here. Even the clear and obvious things are not 'clear and obvious' in Madman's mind. He nit-picks everything for nothing. No reason! The Quran is perfect. He just cannot see that. 

'Indeed, it is not the eyes that are blind, but it is the hearts in the chests that grow blind.'

This quote appeals the situation. It resembles Con. Every single debate he has been against Islam. Not listening to anything I say, not even reading it I presume. He is a true example of a fallen soldier. 

If one is sinning violently and brutally in order to force others into Islam, they are both a good Muslim and yet a complete Munafiq to the verses teaching love and peace.
Where are you getting these conclusions from? If one is sinning violently, he is sinning violently. Forcing someone into Islam, is also sinning violently. 

'There is no compulsion in religion 2:256'

This verse clearly demonstrates this. 

Either one is too aggressive and violent to be deemed a good Muslim or one is too passive and willing to adapt to progressive, anti-Islamic values like accepting homosexuality, transgenders, equal rights for women so on and so forth.
If you are aggressive at all, or violent at all, then you are sinning except in war, obviously. Why are you struggling to get this? Islam does not accept homosexuality. Why can't you accept that? Why should we change our religion for the ever changing society that has no morals, no respect and no conscious.  We have rights for women, much more than you can imagine. Islam actually gave women rights 1400 years before the western countries did. Not to mention, women have no financial liabilities, they have a right to anything they want before marriage from the soon to be husband, right to work, to vote, etc etc. I can go on, but I will choose not to. If a Muslim is likes men, then that Muslim should fight the urge to not have sex with his gender. If he does, only then it is haram. Not before. 

Muslim has to commit acts of war to push forth Islam
Wrong. A Muslim commits acts of war to defend their nation from being attacked. And there is no compulsion in religion. 



Con has not talked about Christianity for the entire round except for that of the end where he says 'Christianity wouldn't do this'. I could not care less, Islam does not do it either. Let go of the bias. Voters, if there are any, please think. 

Con is yet to answer my questions from the earlier round. Let me repeat it. 

I would like to challenge Con to find me 1 contradiction in the Quran. If he successfully does so, I will leave Islam. 


Con still hasn't answered a single bible contradictions from the earlier rounds, he only focusses on Islam, not his own religion that is he supposed to defend. 

Con has conceded the trinity, conceded the point that the Quran is perfect, conceded the point that the Bible has many contradictions, conceded the point that the Quran hasn't been changed, conceded the point that Islam is not a violent religion and I can go on. But I will choose not to. 




Con
#8

It took later alterations and fatwas just to reach and agreement extremely recently that or killings (a family committing premeditated murder on their relative for sexuality, including being a victim of rape if she gets called a slut).

I am not here to bring in new points, I am also sure my opponent will say those are fake Muslims but... they are not.

It is all well and good to deny stockholm syndrome and feign lack of compulsion for one verse later in the Qur'an, that does not really help anything.

Muhammad and Khalid ibn al-Whalid relied entirely on compulsion and terror to spread Islam, that is how Iran became Sharia Iran rather than pagan Persia.

There is not a single Islamic culture or nation alive today that is not rooted in blackmailing its ancestors into converting or slaughtering those that refused.

This is also why the tribes of Christian colonists ended up much more allowed and free to retain their religion while Islamic colonists absolutely forced Islam entirely onto the populace they would colonise, generally speaking.

Islam was said to have no contradictions but it is based on a huge contradiction; blackmail feigning as tolerance, warmongering feigning as peace.
Round 5
Pro
#9
This round will not be my greatest as have a lot on at the moment so don't have too much free time. 

I would also like to suggest that I will lose this entire debate, lets see what happens. I will call out voters such as Barney etc who always vote for the opposition. However I know that I won the debate already, purely from the fact that Con has not answered any of my questions, nor has he even touched a supposed contradiction from the Bible which I set out in the earlier rounds. He moved straight to Islam. I don't think he has defended Christianity at all, just attacked Islam. Now normally, I could not care less. However this time, I want to highlight this. So when he ends up winning, we all know it is not deserved. Islam has definitely got on peoples nerves, only because it proposes ideas which are not within the western societies rules. Islam is thought to be a huge problem to the westerners, especially people like Barney who said he served in Afghanistan or something like that. No one will like Islam if they do not come with it to an open mind. 

You see people like Tommy Robinson, people like the far right, even the lgbtq community and the ex Muslim community and also the racist community all hating Islam because it promotes things that these people do not agree with. However the religion will not change for you, for me nor for anyone else. Rational Madman said this was a bad thing, that Islam cannot even adapt to society. Following a religion that has no stable foundation is a mistake, because it has no stable foundation. You have got to look at why you are following that religion. The ultimate goal is paradise and the ultimate punishment is hell. Now if I change the laws around LGBT to it being allowed and proudly promoting it, this will lead me into a path which I would not want to go upon. But society will tell me to do it. But I know that if I was to allow LGBT then it goes against my religion. 

Pig goes against Christianity. 
Alcohol goes against Christianity
LGBT goes against Christianity
Abortion goes against Christianity

Why are nearly all Christians accepting these things. People like the Pope are accepting these things. 
These things do not happen in Islam, because we have a stable, firm foundation, with rules that give us happiness. Everything listed that goes against Christianity, does not give true happiness. 

This is a point which I doubt Con will answer. However if on the off chance he does, then please listen to it and see if it makes sense. 

But if he doesn't answer, this is another way of how corrupted the voters are. 

Con gives links from WikiIslam all the time. If it was true, then the scholars of Islam would say it. The people of Islam would say it. However, why is it Ex Muslims who are making these claims? Surely these claims that wikiIslam makes would pry reverts away from the religion? It would pry most existing Muslims out of the religion? It would even give non-Muslims more bad things about Islam to speak about. But I guarantee you, if you was to give this site to a Muslim scholar, every single bad point would be erased. Leaving the website to be empty. 

I have no idea what Honor Killings are, just another imagination from the not so rational madman. 

Killing someone without a valid reason is a major sin- that is your answer
A valid reason is a deserved killing. For example, they killed someone. Or they are in war. Or they raped someone etc, you get the jist. A petty crime is not a deserved killing. A smack in the face is not a deserved killing. Con has got it completely wrong yet again. 

This is a new point anyway so please dismiss this one voters. I just answered it for fun. 

I am not here to bring in new points
You already did

 am also sure my opponent will say those are fake Muslims but... they are not.
I don't know where you get this 'fake Muslims' from. I swear its another allegation you made? A fake Muslim is a non Muslim, meaning they don't believe in one God nor its Prophet. That is a fake Muslim. A Muslim that commits major sins is what you are saying. 

Muhammad and Khalid ibn al-Whalid
Give me one thing that Khalid did wrong after reverting to Islam. Everything will be in war, and that of course is a Holy war. I have brought it up too many times. Muhammed (pbuh) was perfect. Everything has been justified yet again. 

 Iran became Sharia Iran rather than pagan Persia.
BTW, just a tad misconception over 'sharia' 

Sharia Law says to pray 5 times a day. It says to give to charity. It says to be kind to your parents. It says to be kind to your community. It says to fast. It says to be humble. 

The punishment bit is a very very small section of it. And even then does there need to be witnesses, court etc, something which the US and UK have. 

There is not a single Islamic culture or nation alive today that is not rooted in blackmailing its ancestors into converting or slaughtering those that refused.
Indonesia. Largest Muslim country. 

Modern Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia are corrupt in this moment of time. They don't care about Islam, only money and fame. 

This is also why the tribes of Christian colonists ended up much more allowed and free to retain their religion while Islamic colonists absolutely forced Islam entirely onto the populace they would colonise, generally speaking.
In Egypt there are churches and mosques next to each other. For centuries, Muslims and Christians have lived in peace. And there are many more examples. Plus forcing someone to join a religion is haram. I have already stated this, I am a Muslim and I should now. Voters, this is a false claim. Not like you will listen anyway. 

Islam was said to have no contradictions but it is based on a huge contradiction; blackmail feigning as tolerance, warmongering feigning as peace.
Peace is the first option. War is the last option. I rest my case. 

Now, I have a sneaky suspicion that I have lost this debate, no matter what I say. The only way I can win is if Con forfeits. By the way, I have not lost because of what I have said. But because of the bias against me and my religion. This entire site is bogus lol. 


I know that I have won in my own eyes, but many love to see Muslims lose. However, there will be a time where the non-Muslims will be the losers. 

I will end the debate by saying that Con has not answered any of my questions. 

This is a repeat and summary of all questions Con has missed and failed to answer

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Where was the Bible in the 1-3 century?
Who are the authors of the 4 gospels?
Do you deny that the Bible was written by humans?
Do you deny there are errors in the Bible?
I would like to challenge Con to find me 1 contradiction in the Quran. If he successfully does so, I will leave Islam. 
I advise Con to answer all the contradictions. I will analyse and judge the answer. - Christian contradictions
Con, why don't you quote verses from the actual Quran? Or Quranic websites which are accurate in translation? 

So basically, kill all boys. Kill all women who have had sex with a man. But keep for yourselves the 'YOUNG' 'GIRLS' who are virgins and basically rape them?
Is this what Christianity promotes? 

In the meantime, in the Bible, there is essentially nothing that encourages direct severe violence.- Eye for eye

Muslims cannot attack a nation until the nation attacks first. I don't get this keeled out of fear thing. Why is this a bad thing? Muslims fear God. Please tell me why this is a bad thing?

Recap to round 4-

Con has conceded the trinity, conceded the point that the Quran is perfect, conceded the point that the Bible has many contradictions, conceded the point that the Quran hasn't been changed, conceded the point that Islam is not a violent religion and I can go on. But I will choose not to. 

Now lets see who wins, 
Cheerio












Con
#10
I would like to challenge Con to find me 1 contradiction in the Quran. If he successfully does so, I will leave Islam. 
This is what I have based my entire case on, yet Pro pretends it's not answered.

The biggest, fundamental contradiction in the Qur'an is that the deity Allah acts and embodies so many traits that the followers are told not to have.

Allah literally means 'great deceiver' but that's not the issue. He is so furious and so many verses encourage one to be furious and merciless in the pushing forth of Islam, only relinquishing when others have given in to the blackmail. It literally says that friends of Jews and Christians are sworn enemies, not just rival religions themselves.

Despite this already very complex hypocrisy, it then even goes further to have a concept of a Munafiq (a hypocritical follower of Islam) but if one has to be a hypocrite in order to follow Islam then what?