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Topic

Islam vs Christianity

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Religion
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I, Rayhan16, am on the side of Islam. I would like to debate someone who is on the side of Christianity. This debate is about which one is the truest religion.

Round 1
Pro
This is a debate on which religion, makes the most sense, with the most logic and the most intellect. 

Islam (rayhan16) and Christianity (RationalMadman)

Christianity

A religion which believes in the trinity. A religion which believes in the Bible and a religion which believes in salvation to heaven or to face the consequences of hell. 

I will start with the trinity

Trinity

One of the most spoken about idea within the Christian viewpoint. It is the belief that 'the Father', 'the Son', 'the Holy Spirit' are all God yet they are not each other. Logically this makes no sense. And I am not saying if it doesn't make sense, it is not true. But I will debunk this totally. The belief that Jesus is God is totally absurd. Jesus was a human, who was born from a woman, at one point inside a woman. Then he spread a message from God. He ate, he drank, he slept, he went to the toilet. He worshipped the father. Now can God have God? Of course not, but Jesus did. Why did 'God' worship God? He cried in the garden of gethsemane, he wept and he asked for salvation from the crucifixion. He said 'let it be your will, not mine'. So Jesus could not even save himself from the crucifixion and he is God? He prostrated like Muslims do today, he never told anyone to worship him. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God. So all the evidence is slowly picked apart. I can give quotes too. 

‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)

So if Jesus is God then he cannot be a man. But he did man things such as eating and drinking etc. So if he is God, then it is a contradiction. And a religion that you want to say is true, cannot have any contradictions. Let me give another quote. 

‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

Here, Jesus has questioned to why a man called him good. He said only 'God' is good. If he was good, then he would not object to being called good. This is yet another proof. Let me give another quote. 

‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

I think Christians believe that God is omnipotent? And lets go to the dictionary definition of this word

unlimited power and the ability to do anything:- Dictionary.Cambridge.org- Omnipotence. 

The word unlimited means infinite. And only 1 entity can be infinite, if 2 entities are infinite, then it is a contradiction. An entity is a being. I am sure Con would say that 'the father' is 1 being. And 'the son' is another. Which means only the father can be infinite. It also says in that quote, 'my father is greater than I'. If Jesus is God, he needs to be the greatest. Jesus cannot be great and another entity be greater as this is illogical if you call Jesus God. I will give another quote. 

‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:30)

Jesus needs the father to do certain things. As Jesus is limited in his ability of power, he is not God. As God cannot be limited. It is so simple to understand. 

Jesus died for humanity, apparently. So does that mean in Christianity, it is required for a blood sacrifice to forgive? An innocent blood sacrifice may I add. Because this is not the sign of a merciful God. In Islam, when we sin, all we need to do is repent sincerely, and our sin will be forgiven. There is a difference here. In Islam, forgiveness is given. However in Christianity, payment is required (blood payment) to forgive. I thought God was supposed to be omnibenevolent?

Bible 

The Bible is a great talking point. First of all, there are a different number of books in each countries Bible. For example 

The Protestant Bible has 66 books
The Roman Catholic Bible has 73 books
The Eastern Orthodox Bible has 78 books
The Ethiopic Bible has more than 80 books

And there are also many more countries with a different number of books. 

Secondly, who wrote the first 4 gospels? 

I am sure, Con can admit that he does not know. The authors of the Bible are unknown. Anonymous. Who is Luke? Who is John? Who is Matthew? Who is Mark? Why are humans writing the Bible in the first place? It is obvious that the Bible is not the word of God. Some Christians like to say 'inspired word of God' but there are contradictions, errors, copyist errors, all which I will provide. 

Why is a religion with unknown authors of its Holy Book right? Humans are prone to error. They make mistakes. I want to ask the question, lets see if Con knows the answer. All questions which I want him to answer and not avoid will be in bold. 

Where was the Bible in the 1-3 century?
Who are the authors of the 4 gospels?
Do you deny that the Bible was written by humans?
Do you deny there are errors in the Bible?

Now the reason why I am passionate on the Bible containing errors in it is very simple. A book from God cannot have any sort of errors in it. Full stop. 

Challenge 1

I would like to challenge Con to find me 1 contradiction in the Quran. If he successfully does so, I will leave Islam. 

Bible errors and contradictions

All quotes are from Biblehub.com. All quotes are from KJV as this is the most popular.

Ecclesiastes 7:20-For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
Romans 3:23-for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Matthew 28:8-So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.
Luke 24:9-Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
Mark 16:8-So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

1 John 4:12-No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
Exodus 33:11-So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

These are only 3. I can provide way more in round 2/3/4. 

I advise Con to answer all the contradictions. I will analyse and judge the answer. 

Islam

Now we can get to Islam. 

Islam is a religion which follows a book (Quran). Jesus is a loved Prophet, so is David, so is Abraham and Moses and Job etc. Muhammed (PBUH) is the last and final messenger.

Quran
 
I will speak more about the miracles in the next rounds. This is just an overview

-Quran has never been changed
-Quran is the word of God
-No contradictions in the Quran
-No errors or copious errors in the Quran

This is actually the opposite of the Bible, which has been corrupted and changed. 

I would like Con to bring me any contradiction in the Quran, I will refute it
I want Con to also bring me evidence that the Quran has been changed, I will refute it

Allah  forgives all sins except 'shirk'. This is associations of partners to God, which is exactly what is happening in Christianity. Allah is the most merciful, we commit a sin, ask for forgiveness and Allah forgives the sin if we are sincere. This is Islam. A religion of peace, a religion of intellect and a religion of sense. 

Not much to say on Islam. It is up to Con, to prove Christianity is true and Islam is false. I have given the challenges. I admit that I carry the burden of proof but I think I have proved Christianity wrong anyway. Now I hope Con answers all my questions. 

-Quran is a book from God. 

The Quran could not be from anything other than God. 3 options. God, devil, man. If it was from man, then it would have many errors in it, such as what is in the Bible. However no, it has none, has been preserved for 1400 years. Obviously humans are prone to making mistakes, they already have done for the Bible. The Quran does not contain any. Second option, Devil. If the Quran was from the devil, why does it say to seek refuge from the devil. Why does it tell humans to be kind to parents, to not backbite, to not lie, to not fall into the wrong path, to give charity, to respect women etc. Surely the devil would encourage humans to worship him? Nope. And if Con brings the 'satanic verses', they do not exist in the Quran. Last option is God. No mistakes, no errors, and lots of miracles. I will again, show these miracles in the next few rounds. How could a book which is 1400 years old describe the big bang, the expansion of the universe, how old the earth is, extra-terrestrial life etc. 


I look forward to Con's argument and response to my questions. 




Con
I concede Trinity being less sensible than one Allah and with regards to contradictions there's a lot of metaphorical stuff to explain but I'll prefer offensive as in pointing out contradictions in the Qur'an.

I will properly rebuke Pro in Round 2 because I know that Pro (in other debates) enjoys fusing rebuttals with original and always blames his opponent if they don't rebuke everything Round 1, I admitted what I concede, the Trinity is pretty nonsensical compared to a singular Allah figure but then again we must observe nonsense in the Qur'an.

This debate isn't only about which is less or more nonsensical, it's also about which is a better one to adhere to and truer to the ideal way of life.

I'd prefer to leave 'contradictions' as merely one section. There are plenty of things to focus on and many have contradictions in Islam as part of them..

1: The problem of Free Will and evil...

There is a problem in both Islam and Christianity because the god entity is onnipotent and omniscient so it is knowingly allowing evil to occur but there are 2 key, severe differences that make Islam worse in this regard.

  1. Allah is proudly referred to as a 'great deceiver' said to know evil plans before they are lain, to out-deceive and out-crook the most cunning and vicious of crooks. Meanwhile, the Christian God is not exactly applauded for the ability to see evil before it occurs, it is merely an ability that's mentioned and it's much more about you being aware he sees it and needing to repent. With Allah the atmosphere and nature is as follows (I will give you 3 examples from Qur'an):
Qur'an 3:54
Literal: And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.[2]

Qur'an 7:99
Literal: Did they secure God's scheme/deceit ? So no(one) trusts God's scheme/deceit except the nation the losers.[3]

Qur'an 8:30
Literal: And when those who disbelieved deceive/scheme at you to affix/affirm you, or kill you, or bring you out, and they scheme/deceive , and God deceives/schemes and God (is) best (of) the deceivers/schemers.[4]

Qur'an 10:21
Literal: And if We made the people taste/experience mercy from after calamity/disastrous distress touched them, then for them (is) cheatery/deceit/schemes in Our verses/evidences . Say: "God (is) quicker/faster (in) cunning/scheming , that Our messengers write what you cheat/ deceive/scheme."[5]

Qur'an 13:42
Literal: And those from before them had cheated/deceived/schemed, so to God (is) all the cheatery/deceit/scheme. He knows what every self gains/acquires , and the disbelievers will know to whom (is) the house's/home's end/turn (result).[6]

I warn that my opponent will always say if a website's agenda is against Islam but ignore the fact they are quoting the most holy and sacred scripture in all of Islam (the Qur'an).

I know my opponent will do this as he does this every single debate when he feels he can disredit a source, not realising he is disrediting the Qur'an being quoted...

Now, he is welcome to bring up Christian verses, I assert none pride God on the ability to out-deceive deceivers merely mention God is capable of perceiving it before it happens and the problem goes beyond that...

that was part 1,


2. Allah is known to utilise evil and be brutal, sadistic, merciless and terror-bringing. The Christian God is just as much about being loved and respected as feared, whereas Allah is much more about being feared and surrendered to. This makes one wonder what 'evil' and toxic attitudes even are in Islam.

[8.10] And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[8.11] When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[8.18] This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.
[8.19] If you demanded a judgment, the judgment has then indeed come to you; and if you desist, it will be better for you; and if you turn back (to fight), We (too) shall turn back, and your forces shall avail you nothing, though they may be many, and (know) that Allah is with the believers.
[8.20] O you who believe! obey Allah and His Apostle and do not turn back from Him while you hear.
[8.21] And be not like those who said, We hear, and they did not obey.
[8.22] Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand.
[8.23] And if Allah had known any good in them He would have made them hear, and if He makes them hear they would turn back while they withdraw.
[8.24] O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Apostle when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered.
[8.25] And fear an affliction which may not smite those of you in particular who are unjust; and know that Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.26] And remember when you were few, deemed weak in the land, fearing lest people might carry you off by force, but He sheltered you and strengthened you with His aid and gave you of the good things that you may give thanks.
[8.27] O you who believe! be not unfaithful to Allah and the Apostle, nor be unfaithful to your trusts while you know.

Allah is said to bring evil unto evildoers mercilessly and it doesn't seem to be the hell in this life.

While Iblis in Islam seems to mimic Christianity's dynamic with God and Satan, there seems to be a fundamental issue when it comes to what Shait'an and evil Jinn are...

[2.14] And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Shaitans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.
[2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.
[2.102] And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.
[2.168] O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
[2.208] O you who believe! enter into submission one and all and do not follow the footsteps of Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[2.257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
[2.268] Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins you to be niggardly, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
[2.275] Those who swallow down usury cannot arise except as one whom Shaitan has prostrated by (his) touch does rise. That is because they say, trading is only like usury; and Allah has allowed trading and forbidden usury. To whomsoever then the admonition has come from his Lord, then he desists, he shall have what has already passed, and his affair is in the hands of Allah; and whoever returns (to it)-- these arc the inmates of the fire; they shall abide in it.

[3.36] So when she brought forth, she said: My Lord! Surely I have brought it forth a female-- and Allah knew best what she brought forth-- and the male is not like the female, and I have named it Marium, and I commend her and her offspring into Thy protection from the accursed Shaitan.
[3.155] (As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met, only the Shaitan sought to cause them to make a slip on account of some deeds they had done, and certainly Allah has pardoned them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
[3.175] It is only the Shaitan that causes you to fear from his friends, but do not fear them, and fear Me if you are believers.

[4.38] And those who spend their property (in alms) to be seen of the people and do not believe in Allah nor in the last day; and as for him whose associate is the Shaitan, an evil associate is he!
[4.60] Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Shaitan, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error.
[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
[4.83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few
[4.117] They do not call besides Him on anything but idols, and they do not call on anything but a rebellious Shaitan.
[4.119] And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss.
[4.120] He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive.

If you read through this, there are several parallels and consistencies between how Shaitan work(s) and Allah works. The only difference is Allah is the correct one to fear, the correct one to surrender to and the correct one to blindly adhere to. Shaitan offer you the very same promises that Allah does, the same encouragements and ways of pulling you to your knees as you cave into them but they are the wrong to give into.

It is like Allah is the alpha gangster godfather and they merely are recruiters for enemy gangs.

This fits in with the whole approach of Islam to other religions but that isn't much better in Christianity (though in Christianity you're encouraged to forgive and not judge them too harshly, in Islam you are told to directly fight them).


This leads me swiftly into the next dynamic issue


~~~~

Islam is about surrender, submission and fear. Christianity is about forgiveness, repentance and love.

There seems to be a fundamental issue with Islam's idea of how to rehabilitate those led astray. This stems from the fact that Islam itself is surrender/submission to God. Muhammad impregnated a 9 year old when he felt like it, he stoned people, crowned a psychopathic conqueror known as Khalid ibn al-Walid as the 'sword of Allah' and happened to meet Walid while Walid slaughtered his own men mercilessly and met Muhammad and decided to join rather than fight, the cause of Islam since it blended well with his merciless ways.

The idea in Islam is to hurt and scare people until the fear has made them cave into Islam. That is literally how every single aspect of war vs peace and verses involving both are setup, it even reflects how a husband is told to treat his wife, ignore her, demean her emotions, deprive her of sex and even strike her until she learns who the 'boss' is:

Sahih International, at Quran.com:[8]
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.[9]

The entirety of the Qur'an is about instilling fear, as long as you are being a brute in the name of Allah, it is considered okay (but you must stop when they cave into Islam as you see fit/correct and not continue the abuse past that point). 

153. Since the ummah has been invested with world leadership, a set of necessary directives is now provided for its guidance. Before laying down these directives it seemed necessary to caution the Muslims that the office which had been conferred on them was indeed no bed of roses. On the contrary, it was a great and perilous responsibility. Once they undertook it, they would be subjected to all kinds of afflictions, put to all kinds of trials and tribulations and made to bear all kinds of deprivation. If, however, the Muslims persisted along the path of God despite the perils they would be rewarded with God's favour in full measure.

(2:154) And do not say of those who are killed in the way of Allah that they are dead; they are alive even though you have no knowledge of their life.155

(2:155) We shall certainly test you by afflicting you with fear, hunger, loss of properties and lives and fruits. Give glad tidings, then, to those who remain patient;

(2:156) those who when any affliction smites them, they say: “Verily, we belong to Allah, and it is to Him that we are destined to return.”156

(2:157) Upon them will be the blessings and mercy of their Lord, and it is they who are rightly guided.

(2:158) Surely, al-Safa and al-Marwah are the symbols of Allah. Hence, whoever performs Hajj (Full Pilgrimage)157 to the House (of Allah) or makes 'Umrah (Minor Pilgrimage), will find that it is no sin for him to ambulate between the two.158 And whoever does a good work voluntarily159 should know that Allah is Appreciative, All-Knowing.

You simply will not find verses genuinely enabling terrorists as I have quoted earlier in the Round and here now, in Christianity. You will not find it because Christianity is not structured in a way that runs on aggressive fear, perhaps passive fear in the sense of fearing failing to repent in time to reach heaven but doesn't encourage brutality to spread. This is rooted in the fact that the god of Christianity is not quite like the god of Judaism before it (this is what changes with the New Testament) nor Allah after it (or in competition with it, depends how you look at it). The god of Christianity has a larger capacity for forgiveness. This is central to the religion and a theme throughout.

If you want to build a society, you are better of going with Christianity than Islam. Just look in 2022 how much the Sharia cultures are held behind both scientifically and socially due to the rigidity of Islam and way it runs on fear and censorship.

The Sharia punishment for Muslims who drop their faith is death and the confiscation of their property.
The reason why is curious.

The Muslim Brotherhood’s Abdul Qader ‘Oudah explains it in “Criminal Law of Islam, Volume III”: “If this offence is taken lightly, the collective system of Islam may collapse. The severe punishment laid down for it aims at the total elimination of apostasy on the one hand and warning and preventing others from committing it.”

Opposition to Islam must be silenced at all costs in case the ideology can’t withstand free thought.

Secular Muslims reject Sharia censorship; but Islamists embrace and promote it.

{mosads}That is why they kill cartoonists for drawing Muhammad, or end criticism with blasphemy laws now cunningly called “vilification of religion” and disguised as protection against “anti-Muslim bigotry.”
 
And now they have silenced the most famous and celebrated ex-Muslim thinker of our time: Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
It isn’t happening in Riyadh or Tehran, but in Sydney, Australia, where she is supposed to be on a speaking tour right now. She isn’t, because of the threat of death and violence. It just isn’t safe for her there.

The organisers of her tour, Think Inc, have been harassed. Their insurers were contacted and warned of trouble. The venues where she was to appear were told there would be protests.
The Australian reported that Syed Murtaza Hussain of the Council for the Prevention of Islamophobia Inc. told Festival Hall in Melbourne there would be 5,000 demonstrators outside the venue.

Islamist political party Hizb ut-Tahrir told a recent meeting in Sydney that in their view Islam sanctions the killing of ex-Muslims.

“In Islam (it) is clear that apostates do attract capital punishment, we don’t shy away from that,” said spokesman Uthman Badar.

With a perceived religious sanction for violence, the prospect of a 5,000-strong protest of Islamists and their allies suddenly becomes a whole lot more dangerous.

The Australian Federal Police appear to be doing nothing, thus sending a strong message to the community that Australia tolerates the Islamist bullying of ex-Muslims.

But it is not enough for Islamists to make it unsafe for Ayaan Hirsi Ali to tour Australia and speak: They want to destroy her reputation so that she will be de-platformed and discredited.
To do this, they are disguising intolerance as “Muslim feminism” and using it to slander Ayaan’s important intellectual contribution.

The day Ayaan was expected to fly in, a professionally produced propaganda video was posted on Facebook. The almost 3-minute video, credited to Blueprint Studios, features a variety of hijabis blaming Ayaan for “helping to create a world full of hate” that puts Muslims in danger. They accuse her of using the language of patriarchy, misogyny and white supremacy to profit from prejudice.

Anyone familiar with Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s life and writings knows that this is untrue. In fact, the Somali-born ex-Muslim champions free speech, human rights and lives under 24-hour guard for speaking out as an apostate. She founded the AHA Foundation to end honour violence and support its victims.

Melbourne restaurateur Hana Assafiri posted the anti-Ayaan video to her Facebook page as well as appearing in it. Her details also appear as the media contact on a Change.org petition opposing Ayaan’s visit. Ms. Assafiri has not visibly spoken out against the Sharia death penalty for ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

It is difficult to see how it is Muslims rather than ex-Muslims who are in danger in tolerant Australia when it is only ex-Muslims who are prevented from speaking and being heard, and when Islamist groups such as Hizb ut-Tahrir can support the killing of ex-Muslims without a protester or a police officer in sight.

But it is instructive to note how Sharia censorship is now advanced in the disguise of “Muslim feminism.”
Round 2
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Round 4
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Round 5
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