Instigator / Pro

1500

rating

debates

0.0%

won

Topic

#4050

Islam is not a good religion

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...

AustinL0926

Tags

Religion

Parameters

Publication date: 01.10.2023 04:34PM
Last updated date: 02.15.2023 12:12AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

AustinL0926

1636

rating

debates

93.94%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

ALakNANduhh

01.10.2023 06:27PM

Pro

IT SEEMS AS IF ISLAM HATES NON-MUSLIMS

We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers. QURAN 3.151

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise. QURAN 4.56

AND EVEN PROHIBITS. MAKING THEM YOUR FRIENDS

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allāh guides not the wrongdoing people.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah1 willingly while they are humbled.

And I would like to end my argument by asking, why did the prophet marry Aisha at such a tender age?

AustinL0926

01.12.2023 05:29PM

Con

I. Framework

The resolution is, “Islam is not a good religion.”

The definition of good, in a moral context, means “virtuous, right, commendable” (Merriam-Webster).

Therefore, if I show that Islam, on balance, is based on virtuous, right, and commendable principles, then I have upheld my burden of proof.

II. Constructive Arguments

I will be arguing that Islam is fundamentally predicated on principles of rightness.

1. Islam directs followers to do good and stop evil.

In the Quran, Muslims are directed to “enjoin good and forbid wrong,” two basic principles of virtue. [1] This clearly fits the definition of being “virtuous, right, or commendable.”

2. Islam requires followers to perform good deeds, not just have faith.

Both faith, and good deeds, are required in order for followers to attain Allah’s grace. This is in contrast to Christianity, in which good deeds are a product, not a requirement, of salvation. [2]

In this regard, Islam brings positive action in the real world as a result of faith.

3. Islam tells followers to perform charitable acts.

Charity is one of the Five Pillars of Islam. Muslims are required to give part of their wealth to the poor. In addition, they should always strive to help other in need, as shown in this verse:

“Your smile for your brother is a charity. Your removal of stones, thorns or bones from the paths of people is a charity. Your guidance of a person who is lost is a charity.” [3]

III. Rebuttals

“We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers. QURAN 3.151”
“Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise. QURAN 4.56”

I will counter this with a simple syllogism:

P1. For something to be impactful, it must be real. (valid by truism)

P2. Hell is not real. (valid because PRO has not demonstrated any evidence that these punishments are real.)

C1. Hell is not impactful. (valid by logic)

C2. The verses referencing Hell are not impactful (to the overall question of whether Islam is a good religion).

“O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allāh guides not the wrongdoing people.”

This verse is taken out of context – it was written in a time where Muslims were a small minority that were persecuted in a majority Jew and Christian region. The Quran specifically states that in other situations, there is no problem with being friends of people with different faith. [4]

“As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. (Quran 60:8)”

“Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah1 willingly while they are humbled.”

The key part of this verse is in the last part: “until they give the jizyah.” The jizyah was a tax given to non-Muslims in Islamic countries. In return for a small portion of income, non-Muslims were given protection, as well as exemption from military service. Furthermore, only men of working age were required to pay the jizyah. It’s no different from paying taxes in a foreign country.

“And I would like to end my argument by asking, why did the prophet marry Aisha at such a tender age?”

It was very common, and even accepted, back then, for women to be betrothed at a young age. Although obviously not acceptable today, we must consider such practices in the context of this time.

IV. Conclusion

In this short opening round, I have:

Shown how Islam promotes positive values, such as:
Bringing good and stopping evil
Performing good deeds to others
Donating to charity
Shown how many Quran verses:
Are taken out of context
Outweighed by other positive ones

Overall, I have shown that Islam, as a religion, does more good than harm.

V. Sources

1: https://books.google.com/books?id=9v2qAgAAQBAJ

2: https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1165/viewall/grace-faith-and-works/

3: https://www.zakat.org/why-is-charity-so-important-in-islam

4: https://www.islamicity.org/4659/can-muslims-be-friends-with-jews-and-christians/

5: https://www.britannica.com/topic/jizya

Round 2

ALakNANduhh

01.14.2023 01:45PM

Pro

Thank you for replying with such formality and positovity.

Islam directs followers to do good and stop evil.

There are undoubtedly some good things in islam, but compared with other religions it is not ready to change and adapt more tolerant values.(opinion)

Islam tells followers to perform charitable acts.

When a religion is telling you to perform charity but roast those(in hell) who do not believe in it it is a safe to say that it is not very good.

Rebuttals

P1. For something to be impactful, it must be real. (valid by truism)

A lot of unreal things can be impactful, things like Harry Potter for example or threatening people that they are going go ve skinned and roasted in hell. The point still remain that a believer of the islamic faith will see non-believers as people who are going to /should be roasted in fire.

The verse also says

We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority

How are they going to cast terror?

I almost forgot this verse

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

So an atheistic doctor is worst than Osama?

The Quran specifically states that in other situations, there is no problem with being friends of people with different faith.

Source?

The key part of this verse is in the last part: “until they give the jizyah.”

I think the key part lies in "Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh"

only men of working age were required to pay the jizyah. It’s no different from paying taxes in a foreign country.

Jizyah was a religious tax, it was like a punishment for non-Muslims. Comparing it to tax is beyond stupid, goverment doesn't imposes tax on the basis of religion. They are not going to come to your country and [fight] until they give the jizyah.

It was very common, and even accepted, back then, for women to be betrothed at a young age. Although obviously not acceptable today, we must consider such practices in the context of this time.

The problem is that we can't consider a religion to be good if it came from a person who was sleeping with a 9 year old even if it was the norm of taht time.

Conclusion

I have no problem in accepting that concepts like ZAKAT are incredibly wonderful but the negatives in islam outweigh the positive

We simply can't call a slave owner's religion good, if the followers of that religion are not even ready to accept that he was in the wrong for doing it.

Certainly a religion that thinks that most of humanity is worst than Osama because they do not believe in it, can't be considered good.

Thanks Again for replying in such an easy to understand manner.

AustinL0926

01.16.2023 12:12AM

Con

I. Preamble

In this response I will extend and support my constructive points, while also showing why my opponent’s points are out-of-context, irrelevant, or insufficient to outweigh my contentions.

II. Extensions

Islam directs followers to do good and stop evil.

Uncontested. Extend.

Islam requires followers to perform good deeds, not just have faith.

Dropped. Extend.

Islam tells followers to perform charitable acts.

Uncontested. Extend.

My opponent has not denied or refuted any of these points, so I treat them as upheld. He has attempted to outweigh them with his own contentions, which I will shortly address.

III. Rebuttals

“There are undoubtedly some good things in islam, but compared with other religions it is not ready to change and adapt more tolerant values (opinion)”

As my opponent admits, this is merely an opinion. Furthermore, it is also an unsourced hasty generalization; my opponent has given no evidence that Islam is any more resistant to change than other religions. All religions change over time, and Islam is no exception.

Islam's progressive believers have been gaining traction among younger Muslims. This movement supports “democracy, gender equality, human rights, LGBT rights, women’s rights, religious pluralism, interfaith marriage, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, and freedom of religion.” [1]

“A lot of unreal things can be impactful, things like Harry Potter for example or threatening people that they are going go ve skinned and roasted in hell. The point still remain that a believer of the islamic faith will see non-believers as people who are going to /should be roasted in fire.”

“When a religion is telling you to perform charity but roast those (in hell) who do not believe in it is a safe to say that it is not very good.”

“Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.”

First of all, at no point does the Quran tell Muslims to roast people of other religions in Hell – it's merely something that Allah is alleged to do. Even the Quran is contradictory on this, and many modern progressivist interpretations of the Quran note that these verses could be interpreted as referring to only those who specifically fight against Muslims.

Second of all, my opponent has shown no real-world impacts of the alleged Muslim hell. I can prove this through very simple logic. If you’re someone who doesn’t believe in Islam, you also don’t believe in the concept of going to Hell in Islam. Therefore, it doesn’t affect you.

Third of all, the quote is taken out of context. It refers to those who specifically see evidence of Islam and reject it. This is different than those who simply believe in another Abrahamic religion. As another verse in the Quran notes, “Surely those who have believed, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians—whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [2]

“The Quran specifically states that in other situations, there is no problem with being friends of people with different faith."

Source?

Bit weird of my opponent to ask this, considering I literally provided a verse from the Quran (and accompanying reference) in order to prove this, right on the next line.

“I think the key part lies in "Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh"

My opponent is cherry-picking the part of the verse which supports his case, and ignoring the part which doesn’t. If I was someone maliciously attacking Christianity, I could easily find 10-word snippets that would make Christianity appear to be an evil religion.

“Jizyah was a religious tax, it was like a punishment for non-Muslims. Comparing it to tax is beyond stupid, goverment doesn't imposes tax on the basis of religion. They are not going to come to your country and [fight] until they give the jizyah.”

My opponent ignores my point that paying the jizyah conferred special privileges – particularly, exemption from military service. Considering the jizyah was very cheap (“the expenses of an average family for 10 days” [3]), it was a paltry fee.

“The problem is that we can't consider a religion to be good if it came from a person who was sleeping with a 9 year old even if it was the norm of taht time.”

My opponent has not sourced any claim for Aisha being a 9-year-old, so I don’t know where he got that from. The vast majority of modern interpretation, as well as Muslim beliefs, take Aisha’s age at the time of marriage as 19.

First of all, Quran 4:6 specifically mentions a minimum “marriageable age”. Why would Muhammad himself go against the word of Allah? [5]

Second of all, basic mathematics supports this. To quote The Hindustan Times [5]:

“The age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina.

Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.

This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.”

Finally, the only evidence for Aisha’s age being nine is a single hadith by Hisham bin Urwah, an old man with an unreliable memory.

With all this in mind, it’s clear that available evidence heavily leans in favor of Aisha’s age actually being 19, not 9.

“I have no problem in accepting that concepts like ZAKAT are incredibly wonderful but the negatives in islam outweigh the positive
We simply can't call a slave owner's religion good, if the followers of that religion are not even ready to accept that he was in the wrong for doing it.
Certainly a religion that thinks that most of humanity is worst than Osama because they do not believe in it, can't be considered good.”

See above rebuttals. Also, since when was Muhammad a slave owner?

IV. Conclusion

As the instigator, the burden of proof was on my opponent to show that Islam was not a good religion. He has failed to do that, and therefore has lost the debate. To reiterate...

PRO’s points:

Islam hates non-Muslims

Refuted by several verses of the Quran.

Islam says unbelievers will go to hell

Refuted by several verses of the Quran, and irrelevant to real-world impacts.

Islam prohibits making people of other religions your friends

Refuted by several verses of the Quran, and also out-of-context.

Islam says to fight against unbelievers

Refuted by several verses of the Quran, and also very out-of-context.

Muhammed married a young girl

Refuted through several pieces of concrete evidence.

CON’s points:

Islam encourages followers to do good and stop evil

Upheld, and fundamentally negates the resolution (by truism).

Islam directs followers to do good deeds

Upheld, and outweighs PRO’s theoretical impacts with real-world impacts.

Islam directs followers to give to charity

Upheld, and outweighs PRO’s theoretical impacts with real-world impacts.

In conclusion, my points outweigh my opponent’s, in terms of veracity, reliability, relevance, and impact. I have refuted almost all of my opponent’s points, which is all I need to do, since the burden of proof is on my opponent. In addition, I have also upheld several important constructive arguments that completely negate the resolution.

V. Sources

1: https://books.google.com/books?id=4n8HSe9SfXMC&pg=PA1

2: https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=62

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirham

4: https://legacy.quran.com/4/6

5: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/hazrat-aisha-was-19-not-9/story-G4kaBHqM0VXoBhLR0eI2oO.html

Extend sources from R1.

Barney

02.06.2023 05:09AM

-->

@M.H.S

**************************************************
>Reported Vote: M.H.S // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 5 to con.
>Reason for Decision: "............................."
>Reason for Mod Action:

In essence, this vote was just too vague... This can be avoided in future by just commenting on the core contention (and the main counterpoint or the lack thereof), listing a single source you found important (if voting sources), saying what conduct violation distracted you (if voting conduct)... You need not write a thesis, but some minimal level of detail is required to verify knowledge of what you're grading.
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#casting-votes
**************************************************

RationalMadman

02.06.2023 04:55AM

-->

@Barney

https://www.debateart.com/debates/4050/vote-links/8579

votebomb

rayhan16

01.18.2023 10:45PM

-->

@Sir.Lancelot

It doesn't give me an option to delete the vote, only to report.

rayhan16

01.18.2023 10:38PM

In my vote, I stated 'Con wins this point'. I meant Pro

rayhan16

01.18.2023 07:42PM

-->

@ALakNANduhh

I would love to debate you on this topic too. Would you be down?

Best.Korea

01.10.2023 05:10PM

Muslim countries are usually great. Its great to live in muslim countries. I hope everyone lives in a muslim country one day. You have Quran. You are free to pray to Allah. You are free to believe in Allah. You are free to choose islam as your religion. They have other Gods. If you believe in other God, your head wont fall off. You wont be forced into islam by threats. The Quran doesnt say that non-believers will burn eternally. Muslims have money and they give it to the poor. There are no poor people in afganistan. If you become muslim, you will be happy. If you dont become muslim, then you wont be happy. It doesnt have anything to do with your head being cut off due to that choice. Muslims wont hurt you. You should stop being a racist. Muslims wont cut off your head. Muslims dont have knifes built to cut off heads. Muslims never cut off anyone's head. Heads were cut off, but not by muslims. It was by fake muslims who claimed to be muslims, but they werent actually muslims because they didnt follow my interpretation of the Quran and I decide who is a muslim. Muslims wont cut off your head. Why do you think that? Thats racist. They have sharp knives. But they wont use them to cut off your head. Quran doesnt require sacrifice of animals to Allah, and muslims dont see you as an unfaithful animal so you should be safe. When they ask you if you are a muslim, just say yes. Its the safest for you. Muslims are peaceful. Quran doesnt say to torture unbelievers in every chapter. Just make sure you say that you are a muslim and learn muslim prayers. You must learn muslim prayers. Muslims will not kill you. Quran doesnt command cutting off hands. Muslims will give you money. They will buy you cars. They will pet you on the head. You can have gay sex with them. You can eat pigs together. Then you can howl to Allah.

Sir.Lancelot

01.18.2023 07:53PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

The resolution makes this debate entirely subjective.

Pro starts off by cherry-picking verses from the Quaran to paint it in the worst possible light without providing context. Con responds to these by listing the beliefs and ethics that the Muslims practice, even refuting Pro's argument by elaborating on the context of one the verses. The specific quote about Muslims' hostility towards Christians/Jews was explained by Con as a time where Islam was the minority and they were victims of persecution by Judaism and Christianity.

In the second round, Pro destroys his entire argument by admitting it is an opinion. He makes irrelevant statements like the fact that Islam isn't real and continues to cherry-pick verses. He accuses Muhammad of marrying a child. Con refutes all of these by extending his arguments from the previous round and pointing out that most modern translations depict Aisha as being 19 years old.

Pro only pulls sources from the Quaran. Con uses sources from several websites, so this win goes to Con.
It's a tie on spelling, grammar, and conduct.

rayhan16

01.18.2023 07:41PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

First time voting!

Both Pro and Con made some good points, introduced quotes from the Quran as well as behaving in the correct manner.

Pro concedes that there are some good things about Islam but the topic is Islam is not a good religion so a bit contradictory.

Pro gives violent verses as a defence to how Islam promotes violence but fails to give context to many verses which Con mentions in the second round.

Pro also questions the marriage of Prophet Muhammed and Aisha and Con rebuttles unsuccessfully by stating she was 19. The majority of Muslim/scholars agree that Aisha was 9 years old , not 19. Con wins this point.

Pro gives no sources to his claims whereas Con does thus making him more reliable.

In my opinion, the debate was too short to be a debate as many points were not explored well enough however Con wins for me due to his rebuttle on how the verses were out of context and also gives reference to charity/zakat as a means to do good. As the title is Islam is not a good religion, and charity is good, it is questionable.