Instigator / Pro
7
1500
rating
8
debates
68.75%
won
Topic
#4248
Jesus is God
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
DavidAZ
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
4
1500
rating
25
debates
42.0%
won
Description
This debate will be about whether Jesus Christ is GOD or not.
Only reference that can be used is the Bible.
If I need to change terms, please message me.
Round 1
Pro
#1
I thank my opponent for accepting this debate. I will enjoy the dialogue between Rayhan and myself. Bold parentheses numbers are for references at bottom.
My objective in this debate is to prove, with the Bible, that Jesus is God Almighty. All references will be used with the King James version of the Bible.
I will achieve this by doing the following:
1. Define who God is and is not
2. Define who Jesus is and is not
3. Show the association of God and Jesus so the term “Jesus is God” is proved
God is the only god of the Old Testament in the Bible. He has been known as JHVH or Jehovah or Elohim or Adonai, to be specific.
This God created all things including light, space, life, Etc. He is the creator of all things. (1) This God wanted a partner or an entity to love him like he could love. So He creates Man In His Image, then creates woman from the man. He walked with Mankind in the garden until the terrible day that Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, disobeying God's commandments. This created a rift between man and God and expelled mankind from the Garden of Eden. Before the expulsion, there was a dialogue between the man, woman, God and Satan. There was a promise given that one day that there would be a savior, a redeemer of mankind. (2) From that point, mankind has been always trying to get back in God's good graces and tried many different ways and religions to do so. God revealed himself to multiple people throughout time (3) but the most significant and notable time would be Moses. Here it has been recorded that God established a set of rules, doctrines, ceremonies, garments, sacrifices, etc for his people to follow. (4) Now God had a detailed pattern about himself and what he desires through the law and the Tabernacle. God described himself to his people with him having many attributes, but never a plurality of persons or Gods. God described himself as such:
1. Is jealous (Exodus 34:14)
2. Is not a man (Numbers 23:19)
3. Is to be worshipped alone (Exodus 20:3)
4. Will not share glory (Isaiah 42:8)
5. Is the creator alone (Isaiah 44:24)
6. Is the only savoir (Isaiah 43:10-11)
7. Is above (better than) mankind (Isaiah 55:8-9)
8. Cannot be measured (Isaiah 66:1)
9. God is a spirit (John 4:24)
The list can on for a while since God is infinite. He is the only God to be worshipped and is very specific that he does not allow any other gods to be worshipped besides him.
Now, let’s fast forward about 1,500 years when Jesus Christ comes onto the scene. This man was the Messiah that was prophesied from all the Old Testament prophets. (5) Here is the savior of mankind that was talked about in the garden. The bible describes him in the following ways:
1. He was a mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5)
2. He was a man, made (born) of a woman (Galatians 4:4)
3. He was the lamb of God (John 1:29)
Again, the description could on for a while, but for the sake of this debate I want to show that the Son was not the same as God or was a second/lesser God.
He told people how they could be reconciled back to God but in a new way. (6) How did he have the authority to do this? Who gave him this power? How was he able to fulfill the law so he could bring a New and Living Way to humanity?
Simple. Jesus Is God. God is the only one who could take his Old Testament and turn it into a new one. (7) The reason it looks like Jesus is trying to muscle God's Mosaic law is because he is that same God. Many people will get confused at this point and try to tell you that Jesus and God are two different Gods. They will also say that since Jesus was a man that there is no way he can be a god. Both positions are correct, but only partially. There is a very crucial aspect about man that will help show the ability of Jesus being God.
There is a concept that is widely overlooked and that is the separation between the spirit (personality) and the flesh (body). This is not a new concept as the wisest man revealed that a man's body went back to the Earth, but his spirit would go elsewhere. (8) Paul even told of how we may be Sanctified Body Soul and Spirit. (9) It is a general concept of mankind that we are made up of at least two parts, body and soul. Our Soul is who we are, our personality. Our body is exactly that, our body. Our soul resides within our body and when our body dies, then our soul is released from the body to travel elsewhere. (10) The body of Jesus Christ was infilled with the spirit or personality of God, therefore making Jesus Christ equal to God, and even more so, God himself in the flesh. If you don’t think this is the case, look at the scripture below:
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
And another:
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The body was only a temple for God to live in and to operate to do HIS will, which God's will for Christ was to become the supreme sacrifice for mankind’s sins. Jesus even refers to this during his time on Earth. (11)
God would never share his glory. God would never allow another to change his plans. Jesus did not do either, since he was God in the flesh.
This is a deep subject so I will allow my opponent to give a rebuttal so I know which angle to drive my point home.
References:
1. Nehemiah 9:6
2. Genesis 1:1 – 3:24
3. Genesis 17:1, Genesis 28:23
4. Exodus 25:9
5. Acts 10:43
6. John 3:1-7
7. Hebrews 9:16-17
8. Ecclesiastes 12:7
9. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
10. 2 Corinthians 5:8
11. John 2:19-22
Con
#2
I too welcome my opponent to this debate.
My view
I believe that Jesus is not God and this is proved in the Bible. Personally, I believe that Jesus was a mighty Prophet, he was the messiah and I also believe in his second coming. But to glorify him to the point of God, the supreme being, is abnormal. Christians glorify Jesus to the point of God. Jews outright reject Jesus and Muslims take the middle and most rational ground.
Jesus was a human, he ate, drank, slept etc
He prayed to God in the garden of gethsemane, does this mean God has a God?
And even if you want to use the argument of 'Jesus body was separate to his soul', there are still a lot of questions. Questions that when you answer, you contradict yourself.
An example of a question is 'Who died on the cross and why?'
Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross to 'atone for the sins of humanity'. First of all, why did an innocent man who did nothing wrong sacrifice himself for the sin of others? You cannot say that he willingly chose to do this because the night before in the garden of gethsemane he stated in Matthew 27:46- And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
This proves that Jesus in fact had a God and God does not cry out loud for God to save him because God can do that himself. If Jesus was God, he would not have wanted the father to save him from this crucifixion because he could easily do it himself.
I accept that Con stated things about the soul and the body and that Jesus was not equal to God but it all really doesn't make much sense to me.
Another point I would like to make is who died on the cross?
As God cannot die, Christians say the body of Jesus died which was human. But then Jesus never died for our sins because only the body of Jesus died and ultimately the body of Jesus was not Jesus. Jesus apparently is the soul of the body and the body is just there to live on this earth. So if Jesus is God and his body is not divine, who died for your sins?
1. Is jealous (Exodus 34:14)2. Is not a man (Numbers 23:19)3. Is to be worshipped alone (Exodus 20:3)4. Will not share glory (Isaiah 42:8)5. Is the creator alone (Isaiah 44:24)6. Is the only savoir (Isaiah 43:10-11)7. Is above (better than) mankind (Isaiah 55:8-9)8. Cannot be measured (Isaiah 66:1)9. God is a spirit (John 4:24)
Are these qualities of God? God cannot be jealous because that is a negative attribute and God is perfect has not got a negative attribute. So this is a contradiction.
Why do Christians worship Jesus and all the things he did on earth with his physical body which is not divine when God is to be worshipped alone?
Again, the description could on for a while, but for the sake of this debate I want to show that the Son was not the same as God or was a second/lesser God.
So the Son is not equal to the father? If you are admitting the Son is not equal to the Father then that is the debate over. Lets talk in terms of omnipotence. The Son is not as powerful as the father. This is the same argument that can be applied to polytheism. If one God is more powerful than the other God, then He is God and the other is not. Omnipotence means 'MOST' powerful and there cannot logically be 2 'MOST' powerful because 'MOST' means the highest. There cannot be 2 highest buildings, 2 highest mountains etc. There is only 1. Due to Con admitting that the Son is not as equal to the Father, I conclude the debate to be over there and then however I will still carry on for the sake of it.
Also a reference to that above paragraph can be JOHN 14:28 where Jesus says 'My father is greater than I'. This shows that Jesus and the father are not equal. The argument about the body and soul cannot be used here because the term 'I' does not refer to the body but refers to Jesus himself as a whole. If it referred to his body then Jesus would say 'My father is greater is my body', not I.
Side note, why is the Bible referenced only? Where is the logic and reason? You are saying that Jesus is God due to Bible verses but I can do the same with the Quran. But I can also use my logic, intellect and reason using sources outside of the Quran to prove my point and why that is the truth for example when referencing miracles. However the same logic cannot apply to this argument because it is not logical. The logic has been thrown out the window the minute that you are arguing for a human to be God. To go to heaven, you need to believe that Jesus is God. To go to heaven, I need to believe in the creator of all things, that is where the difference lies.
There is a concept that is widely overlooked and that is the separation between the spirit (personality) and the flesh (body).
It is the main argument for Christians to try and prove that Jesus is God. So not underlooked, in fact the opposite is true because it still isn't logical. There is no proof, Jesus does not admit this in the Bible. Jesus does not tell people to worship him in the Bible, Jesus refers to the one true God in John 17:3 which I will talk about later. The Bible has mistakes and contradictions so it cannot be the word of God meaning whatever is written inside cannot be verified to be the truth. There are so much arguments against the concept of Jesus being God.
The two verses you provided have no meaning to me or this debate because they don't prove anything. Until you can prove the Bible is a viable and reliable source, all quotes that you present in favour of Jesus being God don't matter.
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
This is probably the most obvious and used verse to prove that Jesus is not God. As you know the father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the father. Therefore when it talks about the only true God, it is not talking about Jesus, only the father. This is reinforced by the fact that it says after 'and Jesus Christ whom you have sent'. Obviously this means that the father has sent Jesus.
'The only true God'. Let's dismantle this phrase. 'Only' meaning cannot be anyone else other than the father. Only means 1 and it excludes all other entities. 'True' meaning all other Gods are false. As Jesus is not included in this phrase, Jesus being God is a false claim. Therefore this verse demonstrates why Jesus cannot be God.
Luke 18:19
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Again, another verse that explicitly states that Jesus cannot be God. This is Jesus speaking and he contests the fact that the man called Jesus good. Jesus questions why the man called him good and states that only God is good. Con cannot make the argument of the soul and body because this uses the same logic as the other quote. No one is good but one, that is God. He disagrees with the man and says that the only good one is God. If Jesus was God, he would have agreed to the man telling him that he is good.
Matthew 12:18
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
Jesus being the father's servant again proves that he cannot be God because a servant is not equal to God almighty.
Mark 5:30
And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?”
This clearly enforces that Jesus had limited knowledge. As God is all knowing and Jesus did not know who touched his clothes, Jesus cannot be God.
Mark 13:32
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Again, this shows time and time again how Jesus cannot possibly be God. God is omniscient which means all knowing and even Jesus admitted that he does not know the hour. The Son does not know the hour nor the angels but only the father. The use of 'only' is used here as well reinforcing the father and no one other than the father could know the hour. The Son and the angels are actually similar in this sense and are both lesser than the father.
Another point includes an historical perspective. Did any of the previous Prophets worship Jesus or God? No single Prophet worshipped Jesus, they only worshipped the father, the creator of all things. So it is only Christians who believe that Jesus is God and no one else.
I have already talked about this but the Bible is not a reliable source. No one knows the authors of the Bible for they are anonymous. The earliest manuscript of the Bible was found to be dated to the 4th century, where was it for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century? The council of Nicea came up with this idea that Jesus is God and anonymous authors changed and corrupted the Bible from a once perfect book called the Injil to now the contradicted Bible.
I look forward to your next argument.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Rayhan,
I'm going to improve my point above by answering your questions and comments.
I described in my original round one argument how term, Jesus is God, is true. Now with Rayhan's rebuttal, I will improve upon this point to describe in more detail the points that I have made. I will quote Rayhan's words and then build from there.
Jesus was a human, he ate, drank, slept etc . . . .. . .This proves that Jesus in fact had a God and God does not cry out loud for God to save him because God can do that himself. If Jesus was God, he would not have wanted the father to save him from this crucifixion because he could easily do it himself.
Here is a little critical thinking we can induce about ourselves and apply this to the Christ.
My point is that God, a spirit, dwelled inside the body of Christ. We have 3 parts to us, like I have mentioned. I want to focus on the body aspect to bring a little light to what I am saying. Our bodies interact on it's own. Our bodies have their own will. Do you tell your body to pump blood? Do you command your body to digest food and bring the nutrients to your organs? How about in a fight or flight situation, do you tell you brain to pump adrenaline into your system? Your body stays alive on it's own. Your body will keep you alive even if you are completely unaware of your surroundings, such as a coma.
On top of all of this, when God inhabited the body of Christ, he subjected himself to the laws that all men had to follow.
Galatians 4:4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.
So Jesus Christ had to keep every law that us mankind had to keep. Not only the Mosaic law, but the laws of physics and such. He had to eat, he had to drink, sleep, pray, and eventually in a time of desperation, cry out. I agree it's a odd concept, but keep in mind that Jesus had to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind, an actual man. If God were to try to sacrifice a bull or a goat then how does that pay for the sins of mankind? The currency is bad. It's like me trying to buy something from Wal-Mart with chocolate bars. If you or I were to die, that just means we deserved it since we had it coming due to sin. Our payment was made by our own death. So since mankind was corrupt, he had to create a man and dwell inside it for it to be perfect in order to give himself as a payment for sins.
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Propitiation means a payment. Jesus made the payment for our sins. He did this on purpose and didn't want to save himself from the crucifixion.
So to answer who died, it was Jesus Christ for sure. Did God die? No way, he cannot die, but his vehicle did die and he wanted it to go for all of mankind. This will then bring more light into scriptures such as:
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
How can God have blood? Through the Christ.
Are these qualities of God? God cannot be jealous because that is a negative attribute and God is perfect has not got a negative attribute. So this is a contradiction.
Just because a man is jealous of his wife doesn't mean it's a bad quality. He wants her loving attention only for himself. Is that a bad attribute, for a man to expect his wife to be true to him only? I would rather have my wife jealous of me than her not care of where my love is being directed. The problem people see with jealousy is that people act out terrible things. The action is terrible, not the jealousy.
Why do Christians worship Jesus and all the things he did on earth with his physical body which is not divine when God is to be worshipped alone?
God is worshipped alone. We do not worship a man nor a body. We worship the spirit that is in that body.
So the Son is not equal to the father? . . . .. . . If it referred to his body then Jesus would say 'My father is greater is my body', not I.
Good question! And one that stumps many bible scholars. The Son is not God. The Son is the flesh or body like you said. Here is a reference:
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
A lot of people are indoctrinated to think that the Son was another being or God. This is not true. It was a creation of God for his will to be done. If you want to interchange these words in the Bible when reading, it can help out some of the confusion on your part. Use the word Spirit (GOD) for the word father and use the word flesh or body for the word Son. Now, when Jesus says, "My spirit is greater than the flesh", that still makes God supreme and Christ the vehicle to do God's will.
To go to heaven, you need to believe that Jesus is God. To go to heaven, I need to believe in the creator of all things, that is where the difference lies.
This not a debate about salvation, but rather who is God. My whole start of this is that Jesus is God and reference is the Bible. You knew the standards.
It is the main argument for Christians to try and prove that Jesus is God. So not underlooked, in fact the opposite is true because it still isn't logical. There is no proof, Jesus does not admit this in the Bible. . . .. . .Until you can prove the Bible is a viable and reliable source, all quotes that you present in favour of Jesus being God don't matter.
It's not my argument about how valid is the Bible. My argument is that Jesus is God and it can be proved with the Bible. Again, you knew the standards.
The rest of your arguments about how Jesus Christ cannot be God through the misc scriptures is set in the belief that I worship the Son. That is not true. I hope I have already conveyed that the Son is ONLY a vehicle for God's will for our salvation. There will be time that the Son will not be needed anymore at the end of all things.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.,
Here we see the Son as a tool, an item for God's will, not another God. God is only to be worshipped and if God dwelled in the flesh, Jesus Christ was God on earth. I don't mean to split hairs here, but the significance of Jesus Christ is that God dwelled in that body.
Philippians 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
If God's inspired word can say this, how can I deny that God in Christ cannot be worshipped?
Thanks for the fun Sunday School lesson I get to provide you! This is fun!
I look forward to your next argument!
Con
#4
Propitiation means a payment. Jesus made the payment for our sins. He did this on purpose and didn't want to save himself from the crucifixion.
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).- Matthew 27:46
Clearly he did not want to be crucified otherwise he could have accepted it if he wanted to. Jesus also has a God and if Jesus was a God then he wouldn't call out to himself because that would mean he could save himself, again he couldn't.
This entire trinitarian concept has no sense to it, nowhere in the Bible does Jesus admit that he was God not does Jesus being God make sense within the logical perspective. And then there is 1 argument left. It is is a mystery and we can't fully understand it. SMH.
So to answer who died, it was Jesus Christ for sure. Did God die? No way, he cannot die, but his vehicle did die and he wanted it to go for all of mankind. This will then bring more light into scriptures such as:
So Jesus was the body of Jesus? If that is the case then the body of Jesus Christ died for your sins, not Jesus himself because according to you, Jesus the spirit was God. So in that case, the body of Jesus died for your sins, an innocent man who did nothing wrong and your God put him on the cross, never saved him as he was crying to be saved and then left him to die. Is this the actions of God? To let an innocent man die?
God is worshipped alone. We do not worship a man nor a body. We worship the spirit that is in that body.
You worship Jesus. People cry out and mention Jesus rather than God. That Jesus has died for our sins. That Jesus loves you etc. The same Jesus who was not equal to the father, did not know the hour, did not know who touched him from behind, carried a curse, was a man and admitted that the father is the only true God.
Good question! And one that stumps many bible scholars. The Son is not God. The Son is the flesh or body like you said. Here is a reference:
Adam was called the son of God. So was Abraham. Are they within the trinity?
It's not my argument about how valid is the Bible. My argument is that Jesus is God and it can be proved with the Bible. Again, you knew the standards.
Yet it has not been proved. I gave you a couple of quotes from the Bible, let me remind you of them.
Luke 18:19
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Mark 5:30
And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?”
Mark 13:32
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.'
It is all good and all giving verses that don't explicitly state that Jesus is God, but even if they were true, these verses would then be a contradiction to the ideology that Jesus is God.
Jesus admitted that he is not God by questioning why someone calls him good and that only God is good, removing himself from being in the 'good status'
Jesus doesn't know who touched his clothes, and God knows all things
Jesus doesn't know the hour of his return and singles out only the father to know it, removing himself out of the equation
Jesus claims that the only true God is the father and singles the father out, again removing himself out of the equation.
If these verses cannot be answered for and justified to a credible extent then I've won the debate already.
I don't need to write much because I just have to prove that Jesus is not God within the Bible and Con holds the BoP. I have given 4 quotes which explicitly state that Jesus cannot be God. Con has only implicitly given quotes about how Jesus links with this and that and then implies that this means that and that means this basically trying to justify blasphemy worshipping a trinity.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Since this is the final round, I will not bring new evidence to the debate, but rather try to clear up Rayhan's questions.
Rayhan,
You are clearly confused on this debate. For one, I don't believe in the Trinity and the Bible does NOT support the Trinitarian doctrine. I showed this in the idea that the Son was not divine. If you want to debate the Trinity, then that is a new debate that I will not participate in since we both believe the concept of the Trinity is false.
For two, when I use the term God or Jesus, I am referring to the same thing. Jesus is the name of God.
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
How does a son inherent a name? It is passed down by his father.
The Son or Christ is in reference to the flesh or body. The scriptures you use show exactly why the Son is not to be figured as God. I have never claimed that the Son was divine nor the Son was part of a Trinity.
You are failing to see that the Christ was a vehicle to allow God to get his will done. The Son was not divine, but the Spirit in that body was the divine being. Therefore, when we say Jesus is God, he truly was God in the flesh. If you took God out of the equation, then it was just another body to be dwelt by the spirits of men. The determining factor here is that God dwelled in that flesh. God was inside the body. And if God wanted to use a human body as his will to pay for mankind's sins, then that is up to him.
I am making this last round short since my point has already been discussed in previous rounds.
Anyone voting, please be brutally honest on my approach and my abilities. I will not learn unless I get criticism.
Con
#6
The debate is about Jesus being God in the Bible.
I have given 3 explicit verses talking about Jesus Christ (not the son) not being God and I will lay them out again.
Luke 18:19
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Mark 5:30
And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?”
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.'
I have explained each of these verses talking about Jesus (not the son) and how they directly contradict how Jesus can possibly be God. Con believes that Jesus is God but not the father. He doesn't believe in the trinity nor does he believe the son is God. He believes that Jesus is another name for God. Why don't you say that Jesus is the father because you are pointing to that direction anyway!
I will also not bring any new points, jus reiterating some old ones.
1. The 3 verses explicitly show that Jesus cannot be God (nowhere does it mention the body/spirit, it just mentions Jesus)
2. Who died for your sins? As Con believes Jesus is God, and God cannot die, Jesus did not die because Jesus was 'God'. Meaning the body of Jesus died, where is the divine sacrifice?
3. How can Jesus be God if he was a man? In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus (not the body), prayed to God. What kind of God prays to another God?
I mean, even if Con doesn't believe in the trinity, believing Jesus Christ to be God is contradicted within the Bible and within logic and reason.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Right off the bat, using the Bible as the only source is a big advantage to PRO. I'm not sure why CON would agree to use it as a reliable source, it would be like PRO agreeing to use the Quran. CON sort of argues outside the scope of the debate using historical events, so I will just focus on the bits in the Bible.
Anyway, PRO doesn't argue for the Trinity and seems to be closer to the Nestorianism camp. This actually doesn't hold them back as much as I expected, and it keeps them from having to counter the usual criticisms of the Trinity. CON does not argue that the Bible contradicts itself and is unreliable, which would have bee their strongest opportunity given that some verses seem to support them and some their opponent. In the absence of such an argument, PRO's spirit explanation is the only thing that explains all the evidence given. Once PRO argues that Jesus has the spirit of God but is part human (though not in the conventional Trinitarian sense), CON has to address that. Unfortunately, all the evidence CON gives from that point on is consistent with PRO's view of Jesus. So CON would have had to show that Jesus doesn't have God's spirit at all or reframe the debate.
In short, PRO's argument explains CON's evidence. CON's argument does not explain PRO's evidence.
Interesting subject
Melcharaz and Savant what are you talking about? I am literally using the Bible to disagree with the statement and I have correctly done so. If there is a verse that says Jesus cannot be God in the Bible then Jesus is not God right?
i agree, we know that God wont contridict himself, if there is any votes against pro it is simply based on personal logic and personal understanding of the voters. feelings and ignorance dont determine truth.
If the bible has many contradictions in, then it isn't a reliable source is it? Also the description clear says that the Bible is the only reference that can be used
Savant,
Forget about the Bible fool Melcharaz and his "Convoluted Bible Babble" that he doesn't even understand when challenged against it, whereas the Bible does specifically show Jesus as the Son of God, AND as God in a CONTRADICTION form!
JESUS BEING THE SON OF GOD IN THE BIBLE:
“Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)
"Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know." (Acts 2:22)
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Timothy 2:5)
.
JESUS ACTUALLY BEING GOD IN THE BIBLE:
“Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness 'of our God and Savior Jesus Christ' have received a faith as precious as ours.” (2 Peter 1:1
"By common confession, 'great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,' Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.” (1 Timothy 3:15-16)
“Thomas answered and said to Him, “my lord and 'MY GOD'(John 20:28)
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Now, if you want to use the disturbing mish-mash of the Trinity Doctrine, then hang on to your underwear!
As the only TRUE Christian upon this Religion Forum, this is why I want Barney to remove this debate that shows absolute CONTRADICTION of Jesus being God, and only the Son of God, whereas we Christians have a hard enough time in defending our faith!
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With the Bible as the only source, this seems like an easy win for Pro. It's literally one of the main tenets of Christianity.
BARNEY,
DAVIDAZ biblically proves that Jesus IS GOD: "1 Timothy 3:16; And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
RAYHAN16 biblically proves Jesus is NOT GOD: "Also a reference to that above paragraph can be JOHN 14:28 where Jesus says 'My father is greater than I'. This shows that Jesus and the father are not equal."
Therefore, the Bible explicitly relating to Jesus being God, and not God at the same time, is CONTRADICTING, and where there is contradiction, there are FALSHOODS, and where there are FALSEHOODS, there are LIES, because both contradicting FALSEHOODS cannot be true at the same time! GET IT?
As a TRUE Christian, do the simple math, this debate is questioning my faith and pseudo-christians as well, therefore STOP THIS DEBATE NOW, where "mums the word" on this ungodly topic!!!!!
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Bro carry on, you blocked me so it's clear you don't care for my points
jesus= God has become salvation.
christ= anointed vessel.
dont confuse the vessel with God. Jesus Is God (its literally his name) but christ is not God.
or if you dont understand the difference, think of this.
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
was Christ (the man) before all things? no, but God was. Jesus, the son.
I’ve debated this before, and it can be a very fun topic. Sadly, it gets long winded, which discourages voters.