Instigator / Pro
4
1500
rating
3
debates
33.33%
won
Topic
#4533
Islam Vs Anything2
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Winner
4
4
After 6 votes and with the same amount of points on both sides...
It's a tie!
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Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Six months
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
4
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Description
Resolution: Marriage Between Prophet (SAW) and Aisha (RA) was normal.
My stance: Pro
Opponent's stance: Con
BOF: Shared.
Rule No 1: No insult to my religion which is Islam and no insult to any person discussed in Debate, especially Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and mother Aisha (RA).
Rule No 2: No trolling
Rule No 3: Anything in comment section is not part of debate unless something to be discussed and both parties accept, example., want to skip a round etc.
Rule No 4: No forfeit (if inevitable because of uncontrollable circumstances, then if both parties agree should not affect debate). Intentional forfeit will cause automatic loss.
Rule No 5: Evidence must be credible, broken links and resources which do not have citation must cause the loss of resources points. Wikipedia have citation in the bottom, so if a Wikipedia link is attached and there is citation within that page, then it should be as credible as any other external resource.
Rule No 6: Anyone can accept defeat in the middle of debate.
Rule No 7: No vote Bomb
Rule No 8: One shall read the full argument and must not ignore it. Both my contender and voters as well.
Rule No 9: No favoritism, Biased voting.
Rule No 10: We must assume Islamic historical references are correct, and can use any mean to prove our resolution, including scientific facts as well.
Rule No 11: No personal attacks, just keep everything related to topic.
Rule NO 12: Everything I am saying and doing, for the sake of debate, must not be called predator.
Rule No 13: Everything Being discuss, is for the sake of debate only, not imposing on any culture or society. Laws and regulation made for any country is for them and has nothing to do with the debate. And I am not opposing them.
Rule No 14: The whole debate is only about this specific debate, not for all and at large. I am not suggesting it for any place and person as well.
Rule No 15: Make the debate relevant to the topic and good and nice one.
Rule No 16: I ask my opponent to present his or her opening argument. I will keep the first round very simple with little information without arguments.
Thanks a lot
looking forward to a good debate in SHA Allah.
Round 1
Con
#2
The resolution attempts to confuse “common” with “normal.” Though, they are often used interchangeably. Neither are synonymous with the other.
Preamble
The historical accuracy or inaccuracy of child marriage being common within that continent in that era is not the focus of my argument. Because that’s separate from whether or not it is “normal.”
I’ll be making the following points.
- Whether child marriage was common in that time does not change the fact that it is unacceptable.
- That cultural changes in morality does not make certain actions in history exempt from scrutiny.
- Most attempts at defending this abominable act usually appeal to the time era to minimize the impact of the criticism.
If the latter bullet point was an effective defense, then most of the atrocious crimes in history could be justified such as Christopher Columbus’s enslavement and rape of native americans, due to it happening quite frequently.
Anti-semitism and racism was also common in Nazi, Germany. Doesn’t make it normal.
Definitions
Normal - 1. 1 : usual or ordinary : not strange. 2. 2 : mentally and physically healthy.
Common - 1. Done by many people. 2. Occurring or appearing frequently.
Burdens Involved
Pro must defend that Muhammad’s marriage to a nine year old is not strange or unusual and that it was healthy for both participants. So proving that it was common within that time frame is not sufficient enough to meet the BOP involved, as he is attempting to argue that it is both acceptable and not to be criticized or condemned.
Conversely, I must only show that regardless of historical beliefs or values, that the marriage is wrong and subject to scrutiny.
Children cannot consent.
Aisha is unable to consent based on the fact that she was nine years old. This makes Muhammad’s actions predatory. She is not an adult who is capable of making decisions, she is a kid who was forced into a marriage with a man who was 53 years old.
- Muhammad was an older adult and a prophet, so there was a huge power gap between the two that he wrongfully exploited. The fact that she’s nine means she was less willing to say no.
Child Marriage is slavery
When a child is forced into a marriage, they lose their power and autonomy to make decisions. Their innocence and freedom has been robbed from them. Child marriages are known to cause severe trauma.
"With a 41 percent increased risk of mental disorder, child marriage should be considered a major psychological trauma," he told The Huffington Post. 3
Round 2
Pro
#3
Pedophilia
psychosexual disorder
pedophilia, also spelled paedophilia, also called pedophilic disorder or pedophilia disorder, in conventional usage, a psycho sexual disorder, generally affecting adults, characterized by sexual interest in prepubescent children or attempts to engage in sexual acts with prepubescent children.
child
A young person, especially between infancy and puberty
A young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.
(Oxford)
Puberty
Puberty is the process of physical maturation where an adolescent reaches sexual maturity and becomes capable of reproduction. On average, puberty typically begins between 8 and 13 in females and 9and 14 in males(1)
Puberty usually starts some time between age 7 and 13 in girls and 9 and 15 in guys. Some people start puberty a bit earlier or later, though. Each person is a little different, so everyone starts and goes through puberty on his or her body's own schedule. This is one of the reasons why some of your friends might still look like kids, whereas others look more like adults. (2)
In girls:
- The first sign of puberty is usually breast development.
- Then hair grows in the pubic area and armpits.
- Menstruation (or a period) usually happens last. (3)
They also usually have a growth spurt (a rapid increase in height) that lasts for about 2 or 3 years (3)
Time Period of puberty
When you enter puberty, it might seem like your sleeves are always getting shorter and your pants alwayslook like you're ready for a flood — that's because you're experiencing a major growth spurt. It lasts for about 2 to 3 years. When that growth spurt is at its peak, some people grow 4 or more inches in a year. (2)
Stages of Puberty
Professor James M. Tanner, a child development expert, was the first to identify the visible stages ofpuberty.
Puberty can be confusing at any age…even for parents! Although everyone has their own unique puberty timeline, boys and girls usually progress through their own sets of physical milestones, otherwise known as Tanner stages or sexualmaturity ratings (SMRs)
In girls, puberty usually starts between ages 9 and 14. Once it begins, it lasts about 2 to 5years. But every child is different. And there's a wide range of what's normal. Your child may begin puberty a little earlier or later and finish sooner or later than their friends.
Menarche
Menarche is defined as the first menstrual period in a female adolescent. Menarche typically occurs between the ages of 10 and 16, with the average age of onset being12.4 years.
Factors effecting puberty
Precocious puberty
Precocious puberty is when a child's body begins changing into that of an adult (puberty) too soon. When puberty begins before age 8 in girls and before age 9 in boys, it is considered precocious puberty.
What is Precocious Puberty?
Precocious puberty is when the signs of puberty start:
- before age 7 or 8 in girls
- before age 9 in boys
Arguments:
From above scientific and research information, we can conclude:
- A pedophile is one who is sexually attracted toward children, and it's considered a disorder.
- A child is one who has not reached puberty.
- Normal puberty start min 7 years of age and maximum 15 years for girls.
- Puberty is a period of time not points of time, though we can take it a point of too as it's not mentioned in definition.
- Puberty period can last minimum 2 year to maximum 5 years.
- If starting point of puberty is take 7 which is minimum for normal puberty and also period to complete puberty taken as 2 years which is minimum time period for puberty to complete. Then a person could be adult at the age of 9.
- All above-mentioned points are taken from authentic scientific research.
- A person is adult if he/she completes all stages of puberty.
- Attaining adulthood is related to physical condition of each person, which only specific to him or her.
- Attaining adulthood is different for each person as far as time period and age is concern.
- A person could be an adult at the age of 9 or could be a child, as we have seen from scientific research.
- Precocious puberty is when it happens before 7 years of age.
Legal implications:
Just for the sake of Demographer related to my argument, because it states child marriage.
But Laws are different for each country, which I am trying to say here.
Legally, a person is a child even he orshe has reached puberty, in different countries.
But in some country puberty determine the adulthood.
Now what I have to do is to relate all above information to Aisha’s case (RA).
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
My mother intended to make me gain weight to send me to the (house of) the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). But nothing which she desired benefited me till she gave me cucumber with fresh dates to eat. Then I gained as much weight (as she desired).
Reference
: Sunan Abi Dawud 3903
In-book reference
: Book 29, Hadith 49
English translation
: Book 28, Hadith 3894
Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ)combined cucumbers with ripe dates saying: “the heat of the latter is reduced by the coolness of the former.”
(Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawoodand Ibn Majah)
- Both are alkaline in nature, theoretically good for health.
- Above hadith shows that Aisha (RA) was given very special diet to grow faster or physically mature. And this food was suggested by Prophet Muhammad saw himself.
- We can see from two images that they are good in nutrition for growing kids.
Who is Adult or Mature according toIslam
وَابۡتَلُواالۡيَتٰمٰىحَتّٰىۤ اِذَا بَلَغُواالنِّكَاحَ ۚفَاِنۡ اٰنَسۡتُمۡمِّنۡهُمۡ رُشۡدًافَادۡفَعُوۡۤااِلَيۡهِمۡ اَمۡوَالَهُمۡۚوَلَاتَاۡكُلُوۡهَاۤ اِسۡرَافًاوَّبِدَارًااَنۡ يَّكۡبَرُوۡا ؕ وَمَنۡكَانَغَنِيًّا فَلۡيَسۡتَعۡفِفۡ ۚوَمَنۡكَانَ فَقِيۡرًا فَلۡيَاۡكُلۡبِالۡمَعۡرُوۡفِؕ فَاِذَا دَفَعۡتُمۡاِلَيۡهِمۡاَمۡوَالَهُمۡ فَاَشۡهِدُوۡاعَلَيۡهِمۡؕ وَكَفٰى بِاللّٰهِحَسِيۡبًا
(4:6) Test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage, 9 and then if you find them mature of mind hand over to them their property, 10 and do not eat it up by either spending extravagantly or in haste, fearing that they would grow up (and claim it). If the guardian of the orphan is rich, let him abstain entirely (from his ward's property); and if he is poor, let him partake of it in a fair measure. 11 When you hand over their property to them, let there be witnesses on their behalf. Allah is sufficient to take account (of your deeds).
Sahih International
And when the children among you reach puberty, let them ask permission [at all times] as those before them have done. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.
The pen has been lifted from three: a sleeper till he awakes, a boy till he reaches puberty, and a lunatic till he comes to reason.
Messenger of Allah (ﷺ):Thereis no orphanhood after puberty
- In Islam marriageable age is puberty. Saying Aisha (RA) was prepubescent is not true.
- Not only physical age is considered but also mental age as well as mentioned in Quran 4:6.
- In Islam marrying a child is not allowed. Islam is only religion which put minimum age for marriage not any other religion has done it. Which is 9.
- One can say Aisha (RA) married at the age of 6. Then answer is, Nikah before puberty is promise or proposal or engagement. But marriage can not be consumed. A girl or boy can reject it when he or she reach puberty. If he or she do he is considered as Unmarried.
- What is required for a girl to marry? Minimum age is 9 plus puberty, mental and physical Matureness as well.
- When a person is reached puberty he or she can have all rights, even for their property.
Time of proposal
When Khadijah (RA) died in year 10 at the start of the Islamic message, Khawlah was the first to realize that some steps must be quickly taken to try to fill the gap left by Khadijah’s departure. She realized how sad the Prophet was for the loss of his wife who supported him and ensured his comfort throughout 25 years of marriage. Khawlah came to the Prophet and suggested that he should marry again.
What is interesting in this is that she also had in mind whom to suggest that the Prophet could marry. When he asked her to name someone, she asked whether he preferred an older woman or virgin. Asked to name both, she said: “The virgin is Ayesha, the daughter of your closest companion, and the older is Sawdah who is a good believer.” The Prophet told her to go and propose to both on his behalf.
She went to both and told them that God is giving them a great honor. Both agreed and the Prophet married Sawdah when he was still in Makkah, but married Ayesha three years later, after he had settled in Madinah. Khawlah bint Hakeem (RA) suggested the marriage proposal to Abu Bakr (RA), who happily conceded and so did the Prophet (PBUH)
Another marriage proposal
When Abu Bakr received an affirmative answer from the Prophet, he went over to Mut'am ibn' Addey because he offered to marry his son to lady 'Aisha and she was about to betrothed to him. Abu Bakr (RA) was a man of his promise so he went over to Mut'am house asking him if he still wanted to marry off his son to 'Aisha. So the wife of Mut'am said " O Abu Bakr you might want to lead our son to your religion if he got married to your daughter". So Abu Bakr looked at Mut'am and asked him "Do you concur with what she says?" and Mut'am affirmed her opinion. Abu Bakr went out of Mut'am's house feeling comfortable about not breaking his promise and at ease that his daughter is free from any commitments of engagement to Mut'am's son.
Predicting the Exact age of Aisha (RA) with historical evidences.
Muhammad’s (SAW) wife Khadijah(RA) anduncle Abu Talib both died in 619 CE (1)
In 622 CE, Muhammad (SAW) and his followers migrated to Yathrib in the Hijra to escape persecution, renaming the city Medina in honor of the prophet. (1)
On March 13, 624, Muhammad(SAW) led Muslims to victory in the Battle of Badr, a major turning point in the spread of Islam. (2)
The Battle of Uhud ended on March 23,625 AD. (3)
Most of the Biographies of Prophet Muhammad saw says, marriage between Muhammad (SAW) was consummated at 1 or 2 hijri means 1 or two years after the migration of Prophet Muhammad (saw) to Madina. Both battles took place near the time when prophet Muhammad (SAW) consummated his marriage with Aisha (RA). And Aisha (RA) took part in both battle of badr (claimed to be participated) and Uhud (confirmed) as Medic.
I will not come up with argument that less then 15 year old was not allowed to take part in war at that time. But I will say, that an adult person was only allowed to take part in war at that time. A physically and mentally mature person.
In the case of Medic a person should be more maturer then even a fighter. Its just like that a surgeon need to be more daring to cut and open or even stitch and clean the wounds or body parts.
Severed limbs, open wounds with swords and also wounds from arrows during war and the brutal scenes of war is very dramatic events for an immature girl or prepubescent girl.
This is very clear fact that she was physically and mentally mature around her 9 year of age, which further shows that she might be case of precocious puberty.
On the day (of the battle) of Uhad when (some) people retreated and left the Prophet, I saw Aisha bint Abu Bakr and Um Sulaim, with their robes tucked up so that the bangles around their ankles were visible hurrying with their water skins (in another narration it is said, "carrying the water skins on their backs"). Then they would pour the water in the mouths of the people, and return to fill the water skins again and came back again to pour water in the mouths of the people.
There are claims that she took part in battle of badr as well.
Reference
In-book reference
: Book 56, Hadith 95
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 131
(1) https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldcivilization/chapter/flight-from-mecca-to-medina/
Consummation of marriage
Aisha tells the story. Following a description of her first journey to Medina, she says:
We stayed for some days in the house of Abu Bakr (RA). Then Abu Bakr (RA) said, "Messenger of Allah, what prevents you from consummating your marriage with my daughter?" The Messenger of Allah said, "The dower." So Abu Bakr as-Siddiq gave him [500 silver coins] and the Messenger of Allah sent them to us. The Messenger of Allah consummated the marriage with me in this house which I am now in. The Messenger of Allah died in it. [IbnSaad 8:45.]
Why abu bakr (RA) asked Muhammad (SAW) about marriage? Because he knew that she has reached puberty yet Muhammad saw was not consuming the marriage because he (SAW) could not know the condition of Aisha (RA). Only her mother could know, who can tell her husband about the condition of her daughter then he can ask Prohet (SAW).
Conclusion
Aisha’s (RA) father himself suggest about the consummation of marriage not Prophet Muhammad saw.
From the question from Abu bakr (RA),it shows there is no other reason to hold the marriage anymore. Both being adult and wise knew that, she has reached puberty and now the marriage can be consumed. That is why Abu Bakr (RA) asked Prophet Muhammad(SAW) what is reason to not consume marriage while Aisha (RA) being adult. It could be problem that maybe Aisha (RA) herself did not know her age as at that time people were not good at tracking their age or keeping record of it.
Even though the age was correct we have seen from above information that normally puberty can start at 7 and last min 2 year max 5 years. So whomever gets it at 7 can be fully grown at 9. In the case of precocious puberty the age could be even below 7 e.g., 6 or 5 and phase of puberty could last till 7 to 8 even.
In wars women roles during those times:
This was task of women in wars during that time.
According to what Anas b.Maliknarrates, Umm Sulaym once went to the Prophet and told him that she wanted to join the war, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) told her that jihad was not obligatory for women. Thereupon, Umm Sulaym said that she could treat the wounded, make medicine for eye pain, and carry water to mujahids, the Prophet said, “Then, it would be good for you to go to the war.” (Haythami,4/324)
It is reported that Umm Salit carried water in leather bottles in the battle of Uhud and sewed the sheaths of the swords. (Bukhari, Jihad, 66)
Lady Nasiba was one of the women who participated in the Battle of Uhud with the same purpose. (IbnSad. 8/412-413)
Aisha (RA) herself said
At-Tirmidhi said: ‘Aa’ishah said: When a girl reaches the age of nine years, she is a woman.
Sunan at-Tirmidhi (2/409)
Narated By'Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became All-right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Volume 005, Book 058,Hadith Number234 Buhkari
فَلَمْيَرُعْنِيإِلاَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلىالله عليهوسلم ضُحًى، فَأَسْلَمَتْنِيإِلَيْهِ،وَأَنَا يَوْمَئِذٍ بِنْتُ تِسْعِسِنِينَ.
derogatory•informal
noun: bint; plural noun: bints
- a girl or woman.
Origin
mid 19th century: from Arabic, literally ‘daughter, girl’.
Translate bint to
Use over time for: bint
arabic word for child is tifl طفل
While here word bint is used, which means a girl not tifl which means child. She said she was girl not a child.
Conclusion
We can conclude from above information:
- A girl can be adult at 9 year old if she gets first sign of puberty at 7 and her puberty phase is 2 year.
- Puberty can start at min 7 and puberty phase can be min 2 year and max 4 years.
- A person become full adult at the end of puberty.
- Among women menstruation is called minarche and is final stage of puberty.
- In Islam menstruation is must to called an adult.
- Precocious puberty is one which can start before 7 years of age.
- Precocious person even take maximum years for puberty phase can reach to adulthood at the age of 9. For example a person is precocious and she start to have first sign at the age of 5 year old then even she takes 4 years maximum time for reaching adulthood than she will be adult at the age of 9. If a girl started first sign at the age of 6 and her puberty phase is 3 years then she will be adult at 9. Probably the case of Aisha (ra).
- If Aisha (RA) was precocious then she could even reach adulthood before the age of 9.
- but Islam is the only religion which gives minimum age for a girl to be adult at 9 and can have consume marriage. Its like age of consent in Islam. With all the requirement.
- Minimum requirement for a girl to be considered adult in Islam is minrache. Then she must be mentally and physically mature as well. Just like we have seen in the case of Aisha (RA).
- Aisha’s (RA) mother took her to prepare for marriage, and her father as well asked Prophet what makes him (SAW) to not consume his marriage.
- Khawlaw offered two women to prophet to be having the age of marriage. So she saw it too. And prophet (SAW) was not aware of which women are marriageable around him. And the dreams in which prophet (SAW) saw Aisha (RA) is from Allah which was probably after Khawlah suggest her for marriage. Or even it was before but khawlah was not aware of them.
- She was feed a special diet to reach adulthood or puberty. She was not prepubecent as its not allowed in islam to consume marriage with prepubecent girl.
- She participated in wars around the age of her consummation. Which shows she was physically and mentally mature to be able to withstand the brutal scenes of war.
- Uhud war took place 2 or 3 years after hijra, and Prophet (SAW) consummated the marriage with Aisha (RA) 2 years after hijra, almost same or 1 year before war. So it shows that Aisha (RA) was mature and adult.
- Her father saw her adult.
- Her mother saw her adult.
- Khawlah saw her adult.
- She herself call her adult.
- Scenarios shows she was adult.
- Science says she can and some women can be adult at 9.
- I was the case of precocious puberty as well. And one of my class fellow at 5th was adult and was extreme case of precocious puberty. I saw her first time in 5th grade and fellow with me who studied with her before me said, she was mature even before. So in my personal experience I have seen cases of precocious puberty. Or girls at young age being adult. Physically and mentally mature. she was topper of my class and even i was strong guy still beated me in race.
- My personal experience shows as well. I become adult physically before two of my older brothers.
So this is conclusion of my 1st argument. I have given scientific facts, historical facts. And also prospect of Islamic law as well.
I am waiting my opponent respond. And my disclaimer is puberty at 9 whether its normal or precocious is rare case. And it happens very less in society. And Islam has given permission for that individual to take all privileges which an adult can have, because he or she is adult medically and Islamically. While in most of western countries there adulthood has been derived or concluded by age which could be 16 to 21. Western laws do not look at physical condition of individual and they put all people in minor category below 18 and majority after 18.
But medically and scientifically age could be very diverse. So a person achieve adulthood is very subjective to each person. And considering that specific person adult before 18 is not wrong.
So I would say I am not imposing it to any country or society or person. I just presented this case for the sake of this debate.
Thanks
Islam is best.
Be a Muslim and show Muslims are good people.
Con
#4
Pro hasn’t contested my framework which means he has accepted all my burdens and the definitions which I laid out.
Two things.:
- My opponent is making unrelated arguments that have nothing to do with my first post.
- Pro is justifying Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha by appealing to Islamic law and scientific inaccuracies to support this narrative.
Muhammad is a pedophile and a child rapist. The technical term for this is correct because of his actions alone.
“Muhammad married her when he was fifty three years old and she was only six years old. He had intercourse with her when she was nine years old.” 1
But Pro argues Muhammad cannot be considered a pedophile because she was a few years older than historical scholars believed her to be. So even if ‘pedophile’ is in the incorrect term, what does that make him?
Semantics & Morality
Hebephile - Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent children who are in early adolescence, typically ages 11–14 and showing Tanner stages 2 to 3 of physical development. 2
Whether the term ‘pedophile’ is applicable is a matter of semantics. There is no distinction, morally speaking.
Since my opponent admitted in his argument that Muhammad’s intent was to marry Aisha when she reached maturation, there is another category that he falls under as well.
Child Groomer - Child grooming is establishing an emotional connection with a child under the age of consent, and sometimes the child's family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse. 3
Trauma & Experience
Just because Aisha was involved in war doesn’t mean she was mature enough to withstand the exposure and trauma of violence at such an age. Child soldiers were often recruited as young as six. 4
Pro attempts to say that Aisha’s puberty was instant. This is impossible.
But even if this were true.:
While children mature at different rates, developing into an adult more quickly than others does not mean they have the mental development, logical capacity, or experience to make or process decisions like the age of consent.
This cannot accommodate for a lifetime of experience that Muhammad has over her.
Brain development isn’t complete until around 25 years old.
And since she had only started puberty, she was very clearly not an adult.
“Brain Maturation is Complete at About 24 Years of Age” 3
Pro then draws a comparison to Western laws in order to make his point.
“Western laws do not look at physical condition of individual and they put all people in minor category below 18 and majority after 18.”
While there’s criticisms to be made about Western laws, regarding age of consent, we have to consider two things.:
- While 18 is the technical age of consent in Western society, westerners still scrutinize age gaps that succeed 3-4 years. A 30 year old marrying an 18 year old would still catch weird glances and shame from his friends.
- Western society usually only encourages people to date closer to their age.
Round 3
Pro
#5
In this round I am going to rebut both of the argument presented by my opponent.
First I want to make my resolution clear, with these points, what normal means:
- Normal means a marriage between a man and woman where they both agree upon it.
- Marriage where parents of both man and woman also agree upon it.
- Marriage about which both man and woman never complain about miss treatment between each other.
- A marriage about which both man and woman are proud of.
- A marriage where both man and woman where both loved with each other extremely.
- A marriage about which both man and woman never felt ashamed of.
- A marriage which was acceptable among both man’s and woman’s friend, family and society.
- A marriage between a man and a woman where both are extremely happy about it.
- A perfect example of love, affection, sincerity, respect and care.
No need to to make unnecessary assumptions.
Though I could takethe definition of my opponent as well because it is also like what I said above in bullets.
“Normal - 1. 1 : usual or ordinary : not strange. 2. 2 : mentally and physically healthy.”
Lets make list of words from above definition and I will repeat them often in debate to cope all of them.
- Usual
- Ordinary
- Not strange
- Mentally healthy
- Physically healthy
what I have to do is to relate all above with the marriage of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and Aisha (RA).
Usualor ordinary and not strange:
habitually or typically occurring or done; customary.
the thing which is typically done or present.
(Oxford)
Lets see what was happening inpast and near past and present.
The youngest age to get pregnant was 5 year old and give birth to a healthy child at the ageof 6. One of the extreme case of precocious puberty. Girl from Peru.
list of mothers who gave birth to babies at younger age.
This girl become pregnant at 13 second time.
Check this out.
An estimated 55% of male and female teens have had sexual intercourse by age 18 and approximately 80% of teens used some form of contraception at first sex, accordingto a new report by the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).
A small percentage of teens had their first sexual intercourse with someone they had “just met”
Reasons:
How dangerous is this? You aresaying this kind of system is good for whole world? In Islam any girl or boy can not have sex out of marital contract. And for younger age girls are financially dependent in all countries on husband usually. So for younger girl marrying is not problem but for a younger man marrying is not that easy then a more grown and established man. That is why in Islamic countries there are more mature men who marry with girls of younger age. While in US, parents teach kids to have safe sex before they can marry. But the urges to have sex are at peak during teenager or onset of puberty.
In non Muslim countries, younger boys and girls do intimate relation with each other, which lead to unwanted pregnancy and many complications, because the list of trials with list of people are very large and both partner do not have enough knowledge of dealing these matters. Boy and girls suffer a lot because of this. It cause anxiety and psychological disorder, no body can deny how many boys and girls are taking counseling and medication for those illness because of heart broken and other issues.But if a marital contract is signed, parents of both spouses are present and has given consent and from both sides potential husband and wife is checked and evaluated, then chances of comlication and problem related to sustenance will be very less.
In Islam and Muslim countries parents love their children very much, and they want best for their children, when the puberty hits, it cause a lot of demands, I am very much aware of it because I was precocious, a person suffer a lot if he do not find spouse. So in Muslim countries as adultree is not allowed nor fornication. Only option is available is marriage.
For Muslim their children are not animals whom they abandon at the age of 18, we have to pursue our parents even we are 40 for our potential spouse. Because they care alot for us and they want best for us. That is why a lot of issues need to be solved before arranging marriage. Law is considered,families of both potential spouses meet with each other many time and also visit each other places. They ask other people about each other.They ask from both person what they think about each other and they see each other.
Its not allowed to have sex with someone whom they just met.
In this regard a lot can be said, but its not focus of the debate. Though my opponent is taking it.
For our debate I have proven with scientific facts that a person can be adult at 9 and in Islam only a person can marry when hit puberty. So this statement that Aisha (RA) was prepubescent is wrong.
Because Quran and hadith tells that, in Islam marriage can be consumedafter puberty. And we haveseen that in my previous argument.
Check out this
https://editions.covecollective.org/chronologies/marriage-victorian-era
after 1823 a male could marryas youngas 14 without parental consent and a girl at 12
here are some mentions, as my opponentalso used Wikipedia references so do I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides
Check out this with low income families.
https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/2009/aug/teensex
Check the history of your ancestors.
https://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230.html
what they mentioned is about when theyset some age for consent and marriage, but what was before that isunknown, probably much lower then that.
Check out this
https://editions.covecollective.org/chronologies/marriage-victorian-era
after 1823 a male could marryas youngas 14 without parental consent and a girl at 12
here are some mentions, as my opponentalso used Wikipedia references so do I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides
Check out this with low income families.
https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/2009/aug/teensex
Check the history of your ancestors.
https://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230.html
what they mentioned is about when theyset some age for consent and marriage, but what was before that isunknown, probably much lower then that.
Lets check this:
The same rules apply to women, except their age of majority is 12 years and a day.
In ancient Rome, it was very common for girls to marry and have children shortly after the onset of puberty. Roman law required brides to be at least 12 years old.[4]In Roman law, first marriages to brides from 12 to 24 required the consent of the bride and her father; by the late antique period, Roman law permitted women over 25 to marry without parental consent
The first recorded age-of-consent law dates back 800 years. In 1275, in England, as partof the rape law, the Statute of Westminster 1275, made it amisdemeanor to "ravish" a "maiden within age",whether with or without her consent. The phrase "within age"was interpreted by jurist Sir Edward Coke as meaning the age of marriage, which at the time was 12 years.[16]In the 12th century, the jurist Gratian, an influential founder of Canon law in medieval Europe, accepted the age of puberty for marriage to be between 12 and 14, but acknowledged consent to be meaningful if the children were older than 7. Some authorities claimed that consent could take place earlier. Marriage would then be valid as long as neither of the two parties annulled the marital agreement before reaching puberty, and the marriage had not already been consummated (just like islamic law).Gratian noted that "If one over the age of seven takes a prepubescent wife of less than seven and transfers her to his house,such a contract gives rise to the impediment of publicpropriety".[17] In spite of this, there are recorded marriages of 2 and 3 year olds: in 1564, a three year old named John was married to a two year old named Jane in the Bishop's Court in Chester, England.[1]
The American colonies followed the English tradition,but the law was more of a guide. For example, Mary Hathaway (Virginia, 1689) was only 9 when she was married to William Williams
Islam
In Quran, the "age of marriage" coincides with puberty. Classical Islamic law (Sharia) does not have a marriageable age because there is no minimum age at which puberty can occur. In Islam there is no set age for marriage, the condition is physical (bulugh) maturity and mental (rushd) maturity. So the age is variable to each individual and also can be variant within different cultures and different times.
All US states (except for Delaware and New Jersey) have exceptions/loopholes that allow minors to marry in case of parental consent, judicial consent, and/or pregnancy. Of those, 37 states have a minimum age ranging from 14-17.In 13 states, there is no minimum age. In the District of Columbia, the general age is 18 however minors aged 16 can marry with parental consent.
Uruguay
18
14
12
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
16
15
16
15
Mexico
18
16
14
Haiti
18
15
Cuba
18
16
14
Colombia
18
14
Bahamas
18
15
Antigua and Barbuda[79]
18
15
Tanzania[72]
18
15
14
Sudan
Puberty
10
South Africa
18
15
São Tomé and Príncipe[62]
18
16
14
Niger
21
18
15
Mali[53]
18
16
18
16
15
Gabon[43]
21
18
15
Equatorial Guinea[40]
23
14
12
22
18
22
18
13
Cameroon[33]
21
18
15
Burkina Faso
20
20
17
18
15
Angola[30]
18
16
15
Afghanistan
18
16
18
15
18
15
Brunei
18
14[122]
Iran
18
15
15
13
15
13
Lebanon
18
17
17
15
15
9
Yemen
15
None
CHECK PAKISTAN
Pakistan
18
16 in most provinces
18
16/18
Andorra
16
14
Estonia
18
15
Lithuania
18
15
None
Minors can only marry below 15 if they are pregnant females with court permission
FULL DETAIL IN ABOVE LINK,its not past its present and we have seen past as well. U can notice something is usual and normal throughout the history. With that many examples only a blind person will deny.
Rebuttal1:
Legally in one state marrying at 14 would be considered pedophile in some state of US while in some its allowed. Morally as well. Same goes for Europe and even in whole world. Where they are not ruled by Islamic law but secular law or christian law. But there are some Muslim countries too in the list.
How usual and ordinary it was and it is has been seen. Marrying at 16 is very common and at 18 as well. 14 is also in a lots of area. Even 12 as well. So age of consent and marriage is very diverse in the world and has been in past as well.
I would suggest my opponent toread all above without skipping otherwise its all worthless to dodebate if one is not reading what other is saying. As for me I amgoing to rebut both of argument presented by my opponent line byline.
I can add even moreinformation to this part of debate but, then there will be no spaceleft for other area to tackle.
5 round with 30000 words isnot enough for this debate from my side.
Although I must mentioned what is the condition of west.
Younger People Are at the Highest Risk of Sexual Violence
When a person marry a younger adult like I mentioned in my previous argument then he accepted her as wife. And there is love and care between husband and wife and both families are care taker and would investigate about any mishap happens to their daughter and even from husband side they would make him accountable if done any misbehavior.
But a sexual assult is always harmful and dangerous for younger people even for older people and we can see the situation above. In another statistical data is has been found that most sexual assult are done while a person being drunk.
For the safety of your younger and even older women, alcohol should be ban. Which is banned in Islamic countries so sexual assault are very less in those countries And marriage at younger age also very rare, its almost as rare as the precocious puberty itself is rare.
Con’s
“Pro must defend that Muhammad’s marriage to a nine year old is not strange or unusual and that it was healthy for both participants”
Rebuttal2:
Constituent of healthymarriage:
we have already seen those aspect in the beginning of my argument but lets do it more formally.
we can see mixed ingredient in all above links.
Lets see how was the marriage of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and Aisha (RA) by looking at the Hadith about their marriage. Most of them are narrated by Aisha (RA) herself.
I am giving just simple titles but all of these actions falls in all elements of successful marriage.
(LOVEand Affection)
1#
Narrated Amr bin Al-As: I came to the Prophet SAW and said, “Who is the most beloved person to you?” He said, “Aisha.” I asked, “Among the men?” He said, “Her father.” I said, “Who then?” He said, “Then Umar bin Al-Khattab.” He then named other men [Bukhari].
2#
HadithNo:280 Sunan An-Nasai
Narrated/Authority of Shuraih that he asked Aisha: "Can a woman eat with her husband while she is menstruating? She said: 'Yes. The Messenger of Allah (saw) would call me to eat with him while I was menstruating. He would take a piece of bone on which some bits of meat were left and insist that I take it first, so I would nibble a little from it, then put it down. Then he would take it and nibble from it, and he would put his mouth where mine had been on the bone. Then he would ask for a drink and insist that I take it first before he drank from it. So I would take it and drink from it, then put it down, then he would take it and drink from it, putting his mouth where mine had been on the cup.'" (Sahih)
3#
Hadith No:281 Sunan An-Nasai
Narrated/Authority of Aisha"The Messengerof Allah (saw) used to put his mouth on the place where I had drunk from, and he would drink from what was leftover by me, while I was menstruating." (Sahih)
4#
Hadith No: 286
Narrated/Authority of Aisha
"The Messenger of Allah (saw) would tell one of us, if she was menstruating, to tie her Izar (waist wrap) tightly then he would fondle her." (Sahih)
5#
When the Prophet Muhammad (saw) would have a meal with Aisha (ra), they would both eat from the same plate and drink from the same cup as each other. What the Prophet (saw) would do is, turn the cup where Aisha’s lip marks were left and would drink from that side of the cup. He would also make eye contact with her and then drink. [Sahîhal-Bukhârî ]
(Careand compassion)
1#
Hadith No:285 Sunan An-Nasai
Narrated/Authority of Aisha"The Messenger of Allah (saw) and I would sleep under a single blanket when I was menstruating. If anything got on him from me, he would wash that spot and no more, and pray in it, then come back. If anything got on it again from me, he would do likewise and no more, and he would pray in it." (Sahih)
2#
Hadith No:278 Sunan An-Nasai
Narrated/Authority of Aisha"I used to comb the hair of the Messenger of Allah (saw) when I was menstruating."(Sahih)
3#
HadithNo: 296 Sunan An-Nasai
Narrated/Authorityof Aisha"I used to wash the Janabah from the garment of the Messenger of Allah (saw) and he would go out to pray, with traces of water on his garment."(Sahih)
Narrated/Authorityof Aisha"I used to wash the Janabah from the garment of the Messenger of Allah (saw) and he would go out to pray, with traces of water on his garment."(Sahih)
4#
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).
(Partnership,connection, trust and Helping hand)
1#
Lady Aisha narrated, “TheProphet used to lean on my lap and recite Qur’an while I was in menses.”
2#
Lady Aisha (RA) was asked:What did the Messenger of Allah ﷺ do in his house? She said: He was a human being like any other; he would clean his garment, milk his sheep and serve himself.
[Musnad Ahmad 26194]
3#
Hisham said, “I asked‘ Aisha, ‘What did the Prophet ﷺ do in his house?’ She replied, ‘He did what one of you would do in his house. He mended sandals and patched garments and sewed.'”
[Musnad Ahmad 24903]
4#
Messenger of Allah ﷺ said:
Every game a Muslim plays is futile except for archery, training one’s horses, and playing with one’s wife, for they are from praiseworthy acts.”
[Sunan al-Tirmidhi 1637, Sunan ibn Majah 2811, and Musnad Ahmad17433
(Styling and Grooming for wife)
1#
I asked Aisha (RA), “What did the messenger of Allah ﷺ do first when he entered his house?” She replied, “Use the siwak (brushing teeth).”
[Sahih Muslim 253]
“Four things are from the ways of the Prophets: modesty, applying perfume, using a siwak (brushing teeth) and marriage.”
[Sunan al-Tirmidhi 1080]
(Intimacy)
1#
“None of you should come on to his wife like an animal; but rather there should be between them a messenger.” It was said “What is the messenger, O Prophet of Allah?” He replied, “kisses and sweet words.”
[Ithaf al-Sadat al-Muttaqin bi Sharh Ihya Ulum ad Din6:175]
“The Messenger of Allah ﷺ would kiss her whilst he was fasting, and he would suck on her tongue.”
[Sunan Abi Dawud, 2378]
Note: No harm shall be inflicted like animals. Prophet treated his wife delicately and taught us to do same.
2#
(Respect and forgiving)
1#
Lady Aisha reported, The Messenger of Allah ﷺ said, “Indeed, I can tell when you are angry or pleased with me.” I said, “How do you know that, O Messenger of Allah?” The Prophet said, “Verily, when you are pleased, you say: Yes, by the Lord of Muhammad! But when you are upset, you say: No, by the Lord of Abraham!” I said, “Yes, I do not leave out anything but your name.” [Sahih al Bukhari, 5228]
(Joyful, playful, funful and admiring)
1#
Aisha reported: She was with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, while on a journey Aisha said, “I raced him on foot and I out ran him, but when I gained some weight, I raced him again and he out ran me. The Prophet said: This is for that race.”
Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 2578
2#
Aisha RA once said,
“the women of Egypt cut their hands upon seeing Prophet Yousuf (AS), but had they seen the messenger of Allah (SAW) they would have cut their hearts out.” (shamail trimidhi)
3#
Aisha (ra) relates the following about her husband, the Prophet (saw):
I swear by Allah that I saw Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) standing at the door of my room while the Abyssinians were engaged in spear play in the mosque of Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him). He screened me with his cloak so I could watch them perform. He stood there for my sake until I decided that I had had enough. Now just imagine how much time a young girl eager for entertainment would stand there watching. [Sahîhal-Bukhârî and SahîhMuslim]
(Supportingand pampering)
When the Prophet Muhammad (saw) would have a meal with Aisha (ra), they would both eat from the same plate and drink from the same cup as each other. What the Prophet (saw) would do is, turn the cup where Aisha’s lip marks were left and would drink from that side of the cup. He would also make eye contact with her and then drink. [Sahîhal-Bukhârî ]
Conclusion
There are so many hadith which shows how lovely, perfect and successful marriage it was. I could add more hadith which shows more love and understanding and caring between them but I guess whatever has been mentioned above is enough to prove how lovely couple it was.
There is saying in our language:
jab mian bivi razi to kiakaray ga qazi. (proverb)
When Husband and wife agree upon it then what a priest can do?
There was no complain from both person about their marriage, in fact Aisha (RA) was proud of being virgin wife of prophet (SAW).
THERE WAS NO PHYSICAL HARM AND PSYCHOLOGICAL HARM TO BOTH OF THEM FROM THIS MARRIAGE THEY ENJOYED IT AND CHERISHED IT.
Con’s
Children cannot consent.
Aisha is unable to consent based on the fact that she was nine years old. This makes Muhammad’s actions predatory. She is not an adult who is capable of making decisions, she is a kid who was forced into a marriage with a man who was 53 years old.
Rebuttal:
I have already proven in my previous argument that a girl can be adult at 9 year old. And Aisha(RA) was adult.
In this round I have shown that “Lina Madina” girl from Peeru become mother at the age of 6year old. Youngest recorded mother in medical history. Gave birth to a healthy child and she is still alive while it happened in 1930s.
Lets see Brain development of 5 year old and onward while I have already talked about their physical development in previous round.
Lets check this out:
Development
Physical
- Slow and steady growth continues.
- Some children may start to experience physical changes related to puberty.
Sexual
- In the final stages of creating the base or foundation of their gender identity. They may explore adult roles with reverse role-play (e.g., acting out the role of the opposite sex while playing house).
- Exploring their body is common.
- They’re aware of reproduction and the differences between the sexes, but may not be too interested.
- Their main attachments are still often with those of the same sex.
- May masturbate, sometimes to orgasm.
Emotional
- Emotions change quickly and reactions are strong – children this age may be sensitive and overly dramatic.
- They can be helpful, cheerful and pleasant as well as rude, bossy and selfish.
- Starts to show more independence from parents and family.
- Starts to think about the future, understand their place in the world more and consider other people’s view of things.
Understands the ‘rules’ and may want to add some of their own rules.
Lets check this:
- At birth, the average baby’s brain is about a quarter of the size of the average adult brain. Incredibly, it doubles in size in the first year. It keeps growing to about 80% of adult size by age 3 and 90% – nearly full grown – by age 5.
How Brain Connections Are Built
Starting from birth, children develop brain connections through their everyday experiences. They’re built through positive interactions with their parents and care givers and by using their senses to interact with the world. A young child’s daily experiences determine which brain connections develop and which will last for a lifetime. The amount and quality of care, stimulation and interaction they receive in their early years makes all the difference.
- What is more better care other then being in the care of Prophet?
- We have already seen what splendid environment prophet Muhammad (SAW) has given to Aisha (RA).
- Her ranks was raised being the mother of believers.
- She was respected very much being the wife of Prophet.
- Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the man of honor, sincerity, compassion, love, care, honesty, justice, respect and what not.
- He was the best among all Arabs.
- He is best among all humanity even now and will be forever.
- A women in the care of Parents or with Husband who take care even better then parents is no difference.
- She had very healthy environment and was taken good care in the custody of Prophet Muhammad saw.
- As we cans see brain is fully developed at the age of 5. so what remains is good environment for any person to develop to their best. Which Aisha (RA) got.
- She spent her whole life as teacher and there were more then 60 of her students whom transferred a lot of Islamic teaching to others from her.
- She Memorized whole Quran, consisting of 30 books 114 chapters.
- She was expert in sharia law and other Islam related rules.
- She excelled and performed well during her whole life without any regret.
- There was no trauma or any psychological problem which she faced because of her marriage.
- She could tell anything bad happened with her after the death of Prophet (SAW), but she never did.
- She could lead a war, she was that much independent and empowered in her later life, she could have said it easily that she was misbehaved or mistreated by Prophet or even her marriage was forced marriage. In fact she herself made rules from here own example for others. Which I already mentioned in previous round.
- I have already proven in my previous round she was adult at the time of marriage.
- I also proven that a girl at the age of 9 could be adult physically and now in this round, mentally.
- In Islam marriage can not be consumed with prepubescent girl.
- I have also proven in this round that a girl can be mother at the age of six, so nine being adult is not very strange. There are girls in the world who are adult at the age of 9.
- As I was also adult nearly 10 year old. There were some other guys during my school times I saw them adult too.
- I have seen boys and girls to be immature and childish even in college. So its totally different for each person.
Con’s
“Muhammad was an older adult and a prophet, so there was a huge power gap between the two that he wrongfully exploited. The fact that she’s nine means she was less willing to say no”
Rebuttal
That was not the case as it has already been dealt in previous round that how Prophet Muhammad (SAW) got proposal through khawlah, he did not approach to the girl nor to her parents.
Proposal was presented to him and for consummation, Aisha’s (RA) father asked Prophet (SAW) to take his wife to his home. (see previous round)
Con’s
When a child is forced into a marriage, they lose their power and autonomy to make decisions. Their innocence and freedom has been robbed from them. Child marriages are known to cause severe trauma.
"With a 41 percent increased risk of mental disorder, child marriage should be considered a major psychological trauma," he told The Huffington Post. 3
Rebuttal
We have already seen there was nothing like that with Aisha (RA). She lived very happy life with Prophet Muhammad (SAW). (see in this round and previous round as well)
Con’s
“Pro is justifying Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha by appealing to Islamic law andscientific inaccuracies to support this narrative”
Rebuttal
There is nothing like that, where I mentioned Islamic law to show that, any marriage is done when the man and woman are adult. Here just martial contract. For contract to held, there is not minimum age mentioned. But if a girl or boy is promised for marriage in childhood, then can reject the contract when they become adult. So its not bad at all. In fact it lets boys and girls to be focused when they are growing, like when they get to know about marital stuff and they already know who is promised for them. This is best for them to let each other know from the very beginning. But when they become adult they can reject the contract and can marry whom they want.
From previous round we can know that, Aisha (RA) was happy about the marriage and she never wanted to end the contract, otherwise a 9 year gold has full developed brain to make those kinds of decision easily.
Con’s
Muhammad is a pedophile and a child rapist. The technical term for this is correct because ofhis actions alone.”
Rebuttal
Giving Sentimental and emotional statements do not mean they are right. For pedophile I have already proven to be wrong. About child rapist I can do more.
Marriage
Definition1
1a see usage paragraph below : the state of being united as spouses in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law
b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock
c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3 : an intimate or close union
Definition2
Marriage, a legally and socially sanctioned union, usually between a man and a woman, that is regulated by laws, rules, customs, beliefs,and attitudes that prescribe the rights and duties of the partners and accords status to their offspring (if any).
You can see both definition that marriage rules or status has broad spectrum and there is no boundary for age at all and also if its allowed in law and custom and beliefs and society than its legal and justifiable.
No body can call maritalrelationship as rape!!!!
here link below you can see marital life of Aisha (RA).
Con’s
But Pro argues Muhammad can no tbe considered a pedophile because she was a few years older than historical scholars believed her to be. So even if ‘pedophile’ is in the incorrect term, what does that make him?
Rebuttal
I do not know why some debaters claim something in one argument then acknowledge it to be wrong. Then give alternative, this ruins the credibility of previousargument and they automatically loose the argument.
He himself accepting if pedophile is incorrect then what should we call him lets see what he called.
Remaining rebuttals i will do in next round as there is no space left in this round.
Con
#6
Once again, we are not arguing whether child marriage was common at the time.
We are arguing whether it was normal and as proven by the definitions above which Pro agreed to, they are distinct terminology.
Narrated Amr bin Al-As: I came to the Prophet SAW and said, “Who is the most beloved person to you?” He said, “Aisha.” I asked, “Among the men?” He said, “Her father.” I said, “Who then?” He said, “Then Umar bin Al-Khattab.” He then named other men [Bukhari].
Pro's BOP is not something he can meet. The Quran's reliability has been contested many times throughout history, so just because Pro claims it was a healthy relationship doesn't mean that it is because Muhammad could have changed the scripture say anything he wants.
Being preyed upon by an older man who is the founder of his own cult already demonstrated a clear power gap and the fact that she is still a child at this point means she is more susceptible to his manipulation. She was groomed to believe that this type of relationship between a grown man and a kid is acceptable, which clearly implies this is not normal.
THERE WAS NO PHYSICAL HARM AND PSYCHOLOGICAL HARM TO BOTH OF THEM FROM THIS MARRIAGE THEY ENJOYED IT AND CHERISHED IT.Rebuttal:I have already proven in my previous argument that a girl can be adult at 9 year old. And Aisha(RA) was adult.In this round I have shown that “Lina Madina” girl from Peeru become mother at the age of 6year old. Youngest recorded mother in medical history. Gave birth to a healthy child and she is still alive while it happened in 1930s.Lets see Brain development of 5 year old and onward while I have already talked about their physical development in previous round.
Plenty of predators constantly make their victim of choice happy. This doesn't make their actions any less predatory.
And Aisha was NOT an adult at nine years old. Please stop with this claim.
Extend all arguments and sources.
Round 4
Pro
#7
Con’s
But Pro argues Muhammad can not be considered a pedophile because she was a few years older than historical scholars believed her to be. So even if ‘pedophile’ is in the incorrect term, what does that make him?
Rebuttal
I do not know why some debaters claim something in one argument then acknowledge it to be wrong. Then give alternative, this ruins the credibility of previous argument and they automatically loose the argument.
He himself accepting if pedophile is incorrect then what should we call him lets see what he called.
Con’s
Hebephile - Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent children who are in early adolescence, typically ages 11–14 and showing Tanner stages 2 to 3 of physical development. 2
Rebuttal
From his own hyperlink:
“researchers and clinical diagnoses have proposed that hebephilia is characterized by a sexual preference for pubescent rather than adult partners”
We can see that Hebephile is only interested in prepubescent, then adults.
While we know that Prophet Muhamamd (SAW) married at the age of 25 with Khadija (RA) who was 40 year old. And they remain married for 25 years. When Khadija died, than Prophet (SAW) married Sauda (RA) who was almost same age as Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Then Prophet Muhammad (SAW) married Aisha (RA). Then Prophet (SAW) married only widows or divorced, older women.
Which proves that he was neither pedophile nor hebephile or anything else. He was best at moral and dignity. Best among best and no one is like him and will be ever. So slandering him is not good choice.
Con’s
Since my opponent admitted in his argument that Muhammad’s intent was to marry Aisha when she reached maturation, there is another category that he falls under as well.
Child Groomer - Child grooming is establishing an emotional connection with a child under the age of consent, and sometimes the child's family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse. 3
Rebuttal
I never said he (SAW) had intention to marry Aisha (RA). Khawlah presented two proposal at the same time and Prophet opted for both.
He saying Prophet (SAW) had intent to marry Aisha (RA) when she reached maturation. Yet you brought another argument of child grooming.
When prophet had intention to marry at maturation, then problem automatically solved.
Its funny to call her mature then in same sentense a child.
This specific sentence you used does not allow you to say Aisha (RA) is a child any more.
I have given full history and scenario to him yet he is responding like he did not read my arguments.
In definition it says, establishing emotional connection with a child or family. While I have already said, she was already engaged with another guy, with whom the marriage was broken.
And marriage proposal was proposed to Prophet not by prophet (SAW).
And when the proposal was accepted it was done quickly there was no emotional black mailing and connection. It was normal marriage. A women suggested a girl to a man, who was prophet and honorable person. Very great at morality, very respected.
She was already engaged but that person was not Muslim. And that person’s himself broke the marriage. Because that person did not want to become muslim himself.
Then marriage occurred and prophet remain waiting because Aisha started puberty(as khawlah consider her marriageable) but was not physically that much ready as we can see from narrations, she was weak and skiny, but when special kind of diet, she become adult sooner. Because it was necessary a young girl who is very intelligent need to accompany prophet to learn stuff related to martial issues. Which she did perfectly and we all muslim gets benefits till now. She had good memory, memorized whole Quran.
One could argue, why Prophet saw had to marry very young girl, and reason was to deliver all islamic teaching related to marital relation.
Prophet had other wives too which can do it as well, but some women are not that much courageous to tell about private life. Allah knew that Aisha (RA) will do it that is why she was chosen for this task. We can see she voluntarily disclosed all information related to islamic teaching for marital life.
While all marriage Prophet did had some reason behind and which was for the good of people and tribes around him.
So does the marriage with Aisha (RA).
As billions of Muslim and islam being the fastest growing religion in world And many people are convinced behind the wisdom of every action Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did. So we uslim also know it and those who join Islam also become convinced about it as well.
Con’s
Just because Aisha was involved in war doesn’t mean she was mature enough to withstand the exposure and trauma of violence at such an age. Child soldiers were often recruited as young as six. 4
Rebuttal
I do not know what my opponent is trying to say here its self contradictory.
He is saying she was not mature enough to withstand for trauma of violence then justify it by saying child soldiers were often recruited as young as six.
There are many things which are irrelevant and totally out of order.
⦁ He cannot not prove she was not mature.
⦁ He cannot prove she could not withstand exposure and trauma of violence.
⦁ As she took part in war as medic, and there is no trauma recorded from those wars to her. So Con cannot prove it at all because she ws mature and took part in many wars and lived very happy and good life.
⦁ Then my opponent is talking about soldiers, probably all young boys. There is difference between young boys and girls also medic and soldier.
⦁ Also he is saying about past by using helping verb were, and presenting the link of present times.
⦁ I do not know why my opponent is so desperate to do those things, which does not make any sense.
⦁ Everything he says is irrelevant to the case here.
⦁ My case is marriage of Aisha ra being the normal one. We are not discussing something of present time.
Con’s
Pro attempts to say that Aisha’s puberty was instant. This is impossible.
Rebuttal
I do not know why Con is not reading my argument. I never said it was instant. Science says, it is normal for girl to start puberty at the age of 7 and puberty is a period of time not point of time.
So how much time puberty can take? Answer is minimum 2 years and maximum 5 years.
If a girl takes minimum time to finished her puberty phase, and she started that at the age of 7 then it will finish at the age of 9. while its for normal girls. But if a girl is precocious then her puberty can start even before 7, for example 5 or 6. So it shows Aish’s (RA) puberty started at 6 or even before 6. otherwise why would Khawlah say there is a woman in society who is at the age of marriage. While she was mature woman and mother and know things related to puberty. And she could not suggest on her own but might Aisha’s mother have talked with her to find a good groom for her. And she was already engaged to a non Muslim also proves she was at the age of marriage. So science backs this as well and scenario of Aisha (RA) also proves it as well.
As in my previous round I have given the list of people who considered Aisha (RA) adult. I will present those people again maybe con will read this time.
⦁ Khawlah
⦁ Aisha’s Father
⦁ Aisha’s Mother
⦁ Parents of ex fiance
⦁ Probably ex fiance as well
⦁ Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Because in Islamic sharia marriage(consummation) is not allowed with prepubescent.
⦁ Society
⦁ There were non Muslim, christian, Jews and even atheist of that time never complaint about the marriage.
⦁ And the scientific facts I gave never suggest that puberty was instant. I gave example of 2 years. Science proves onset of puberty mimimum 7, one can be adult within 2 years. And she waited for consummation for 3 years. Then asking of her own father marriage was Consummated.
⦁ As we have seen he present his argument in hurry that is why, it shows he did not read my argument and planned his argument.
⦁ He probably relying, on the sentiments of voter to let him win without looking at debate. As in later stages we can see, he said “Pro's BOP is not something he can meet”.
⦁ He has mind set that this thing cannot be proven. I do not know about others, but I have done a lot of research and I have come with a lot of arguments which are undeniable.
⦁ One maybe thinking I make my arguments very big, reason behind is this I wanted to give full picture of the case present at hand. And its kind of preaching and inviting for truth also to deal any possible question.
⦁ Otherwise I can do very short argument and destroy my opponent easily. While with bigger version, it shows my opponent is avoiding rebutting my argument for the reason I do not know. Or maybe he is unable to do so.
Con’s
But even if this were true.:
While children mature at different rates, developing into an adult more quickly than others does not mean they have the mental development, logical capacity, or experience to make or process decisions like the age of consent.
Rebuttal
My opponent admitted that, different children mature at different rates.
Whatever she says there no proof behind it.
He admitted they can be physically mature but could not mentally.
My opponent accepted his defeat about physical maturation. We have seen list of mothers who become adult at very young age in previous argument. From 7 year old to 12 years and lina medina was the extreme case to be mother at 6. let alone the maturity, Girls have become mother at very young age.
If someone call a mother a child than that is the most weirder thing in the world to say.
A girl who has given birth to a child is not child. And being at the age of 6.
But my opponent called them scientific inaccuracies, and impossibilities. My opponent need to update his knowledge about science and world. Lina medina still lives today. There are even pictures of her on internet when she was pregnant and when she delivered baby. She was raped by someone, which was very tragic thing to hear. And any one who rape a child, there is death penalty for him if he is married as well, If unmarried then 100 lashes (very hard to bear) in Islam.
Half of my burden proven here when Con admits Aisha (RA) was physically mature.
Lets go for mental capacity of younger adult, if they reached at the age of, lets say 9. As I have already dealt it in my previous round as well, here I am going to extend it for 25 year old argument.
The age of consent is 16 in Canada and most states in the United States; 15 in France; and 14 in Germany and Italy.
Check this, that means Canadian should call all American and French pedophile and all American and french call German and Italian to be pedophile?
Japan recently raised it to 16 while previously it was 13.
I wonder what those law maker would be thinking when making age of consent 14 or 15.
while this argument that a 53 year old man marry a 9 year old is nonsense, as far as both are happy about it.
Lets see about the Handsomeness of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) while being at 50+ and he (SAW) reamain like that till he passed away.
1#
Abu-Hurayrah, one of the prophet’s most famous companions. He reported the maximum number of traditions from the prophet’s teachings. He witnessed all the incidents in the last 4 years of the prophet’s life; during which, he never left the prophet’s side except when he slept at night. He described the prophet saying:
“I never saw anyone more handsome than the prophet P.B.U.H.; [he glowed] as if the sun ran in his face. And I never saw anyone faster in his walk than the prophet P.B.U.H., [he was so fast] as if the earth was rolled up for him.” [Recorded by Ahmad and Tirmidhī].
“Whenever the prophet’s garment fell off his shoulders, they shone as if he was created from silver.” [Recorded by Ibn-Asāker].
“The prophet P.B.U.H. had smooth plain cheeks, whenever he smiled, sparkles almost reflected on to the walls.” [Recorded by Abd Al-Razzāq in Al-Musannaf].
“The prophet P.B.U.H. had extremely black hair.
2#
Al-Barā: “The Messenger of Allāh ﷺ was the most handsome of the people and the best of them in character not too tall not too short.” [Muslim (2337)]
3#
Anas Ibn Mālek, the prophet’s famous servant and companion. He earned the honour of serving the prophet for ten years. His mother entrusted him to the prophet when he was 10 years old. Because of his long stay with the prophet, he was among the companions who reported many prophetic traditions. Anas described the prophet saying:
“I never touched any silk fabric softer than the prophet’s hands, and I never smelled a scent more sweet-smelling than the prophet’s.”
“When the prophet passed away, there weren’t more than 20 grey hairs in his hair and beard.” [Recorded by Bukhari].
“The prophet’s hair was neither straight nor curly, and his forelock’s hair reached his earlobes.” [Recorded by Tirmidhī].
“One day, while the prophet was resting in our house, he fell asleep and his sweat-soaked the bed’s sheet. My mother came with a vial and started squeezing the sheet into the vial (before the sweat evaporates). This alarmed the prophet and woke him up. He asked my mother: ‘what are you doing Um-Saleem?’ She said: ‘This is your sweat prophet, we put it in our perfumes for it is the sweetest smelling of all scents.’ ”
“The prophet was the best in conduct, the most generous, and most courageous among all people.” [Recorded by Muslim].
4#
Ali Ibn Abi-Tālib, the prophet’s cousin, fourth successor, and one of the closest companions described the prophet P.B.U.H. saying:
“The prophet was neither tall nor short, but of moderate height among the people. His hair was neither straight nor curly. His body wasn’t fat nor skinny. His face was a little rounded, white with a red tinge. He had big eyes, dark-coloured iris, and long dense eyelashes. He had a wide bone structure with broad shoulders. He had thick palms and feet. His walk was very fast as if he were coming down a hill. When he pays attention to anyone, he would turn to face him with all his body. On his back, between his shoulders, was the Prophethood’s seal which all prophets had. He was the most generous among all people, most auspicious boding well, most truthful, most easy going, best companion. He who sees him for the first time would fear his solemnity but loves him when he gets to know him. Anyone who would describe him would say: ‘I’ve never seen anyone like him, neither before him nor after him.’ ” [Recorded by Tirmidhī].
5#
Lady ‘Āʾishah, the youngest of the prophet’s wives, and the one who lived about 48 years after the prophet’s departure narrating his speeches and teachings. She described him by saying:
“The prophet had a bright face that shone like the moon, he was the most handsome among all people with the most shining cuticle. Never did I hear anyone describing him except by comparing him to the full moon amidst the dark night. People would say: ‘We would admire the full moon’s beauty, but still find the prophet far more beautiful in our eyes.’ You can notice his anger or content from his face. When he was pleased with something, his cuticle shone like a mirror reflecting light on your face, but when he was angry at something, the colour of his face changed, and his eyes reddened.”
“The prophet P.B.U.H. had smooth plain cheeks.” [Recorded by Abu-Na‘eem in Dala’el Al-Nobowwa].
“He had the most beautiful neck among all people, it was neither tall nor short, what appears to the sun from his neck looked like a silver jug with golden gangue sparkling with the whites of silver and the redness of gold, and what’s hidden beneath his clothes shone like the moon in its full night.”
“The prophet P.B.U.H. had a broad hairless chest, like the mirror in its sternness and flatness. None of his flesh was flabby, and it was as shiny as the moon in its full night. His navel was joined to the upper part of his chest with hair led like a rod, besides which he hadn’t any more hair neither in his belly nor in his chest.”
“The prophet’s eyes were big and beautiful with black coloured iris. His eye lashes were long and dense that they almost merged.” [Recorded by Baihaqy and Ibn Asaker].
“I never saw the prophet P.B.U.H. laughing till his uvula showed, but he always smiled.”
“The prophet never spoke in rapid narrations like that of yours, but his speech was always plain and clear with separate sentences that could be memorised by anyone who listens to it.” [Recorded by Bukhari and Muslim].
Conclusion
As I have shown, he was even 53 but he looked very young. He was very handsome, that much even a young man was nothing in front of him.
Aisha (RA), loved him very much, he was handsome, kind, respectful, caring, gentle, warmhearted, polite, honest, sincere, faithful, intelligent, noble, strong, manly and what not which could be considered best of character.
What a woman can ask from her husband was at the peak in Prophet saw, my opponent is saying like our prophet was 53 old man and look like old man. But he is mistaken, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) never faced aging. Those only sliver hairs in beard and head were countable, because of some verses which were very hard on Ummah (follower of islam) because of their effect prophet got few silver hairs.
Hadith Number 5.
Ibne Abbas R.A. reports: "Abu Bakr R.A. once said, 'O Messenger of Allah, you have become old'. (What is the reason? Due to this mild and soft temperament he ought to be young, and also according to his age he could be still called young). Rasulullah
(Sallallahu alaihe wasallam) replied: "The recitation of Surahs Hud, Waaqiah, Mursalat, Amma and Kuwwirah has made me old'"
only few white hairs were because of care for people. Otherwise there was no sign of old age on Prophet (SAW), he was more fit and healthy then even young people, and was very handsome.
Very often women were presenting themselves to him (SAW), but all marriages prophet did, had some kind of benefit for people in it. Like strengthening the bond among people and making them relatives of Prophet (SAW) and also for the people coming till the day of judgment. Even marriage with Aisha RA was so that she could convey the martial issues in good detail to Ummah.
Con’s
Brain development isn’t complete until around 25 years old.
And since she had only started puberty, she was very clearly not an adult.
“Brain Maturation is Complete at About 24 Years of Age” 3
Rebuttal
⦁ This is totally irrelevant, because age of marriage is no where in world to be 25, neither at present nor in past.
⦁ Making age of marriage or age of consent 25 would cause a lot of problem in society, and every 2nd person would be in jail, even women themselves come out to oppose it.
Lets check this:
⦁ The changes don’t stop once you turn 18
⦁ brain continues maturing and fine-tuning itself well into your 20s
⦁ Between childhood and adulthood, the brain loses gray matter as excess neurons and synapses are pruned away. The rate of loss slows down by a person’s late 20s.
⦁ At the same time, some brain regions strengthen their connections with each other, and the major nerve tracts become wrapped in insulating ⦁ myelin, which increases the brain’s white matter. White matter volume peaks around age 40.
⦁ Intelligence also peaks during early to middle adulthood, roughly ages 25 to 60
⦁ Fluid intelligence, which includes abilities like solving problems and identifying patterns, peaks around age 30
⦁ By contrast, crystallized intelligence, which deals with vocabulary and knowledge of facts, increases until about age 50.
⦁ what is happening here? What my opponent is talking about is brain growth which never stops and it goes till your 50, so a person should wait for marriage till his 50?
⦁ We already know some children are more intelligent then 50 year old. And young adult as well. I can give numerous examples.
Here we go,
That is how and why some children are different from early childhood.
So every kid has different environment and different task to do in their life. And we can see Aisha’s task was to accompany Prophet and learn from him a lot of issues related to Islam.
Her mother was concerned about her physical health and puberty, so that she can as soon as possible fulfill her duty, being with Prophet.
No parents want their daughter to be in harsh or bad environment. We can say Aisha (RA) did Sacrificed her 48 years after the passing of Prophet (SAW). But only because Islam is one true religion, and it was not only loved by other Muslim but Aisha (RA) herself.
That is why she never felt any regret being alone after the passing of Prophet (SAW). In fact she passed away with the love she carry in heart for her beloved Husband. I will share the story of death of prophet (SAW) later.
So we can see brain is fully developed at the age of 5 year old, what remains, totally dependent on the environment in which a person is raised. Brain development do not stop by marrying when its fully developed and we have seen it goes till 50 age even probably later.
It is irrelevant to marriage. If a 20 year old cannot make any decision about his or her marriage.
Then how can he take decision at the age of 14 or 15 which is the age of consent in some country we have seen before in this round.
What west or my opponent is suggesting is that, a girl who is 14 to 18 just date with a person who is of same age or near it.
If that is the case then having complications are obvious. Because young adults of that age are not much aware of these matters. Just like a more mature is needed to supervise young one in any other matter. It make sense if they do it in marital matters as well. It goes for both males and females. Our prophet (SAW) gave example of marrying 40 year old Woman when he was 25 year old.
And also gave example of marrying 9 year old girl when he was 53 year old. So Islam kind of gave examples about a man if older can marry younger and the difference can be very big, if both agrees. I am not supporting child marriage and also forced marriages at all. They are not allowed in Islam as well. Also a woman who is older can marry a young guy as well.
We can seen Jhony depp and Embered heard there was big gab between them. Leonardo DiCaprio also dating young girl. There are many examples like that and its common in west as well, if someone become jelous and do not like it, its his or her own concern, does not justify to be wrong action. Because it is baseless, the reason is that if a man and woman likes each other and want to marry and they are adult, it should not be anyone’s concern.
Con’s
1. While 18 is the technical age of consent in Western society, westerners still scrutinize age gaps that succeed 3-4 years. A 30 year old marrying an 18 year old would still catch weird glances and shame from his friends.
2. Western society usually only encourages people to date closer to their age.
Rebuttal
Its totally irrelevant, still let me rebut it.
I have proven 18 is not the age of consent in west, mostly its between 14 to 16 and at some places it 18.
Scrutinizing age gab, I have never understood the reasoning or logic behind it. It only show they are trying to control meanness in the society. Probably families do not care for their children. Maybe that is the reason authorities made law so that an older cannot take advantage of young one in any way. But in our society there are very strict rules only for that reason, a girl who has never married before cannot marry on her own, she must take consent of her parents (Wali), while a divorced or widow can arrange her own wedding.
In our society, consent and marriage is not that easy thing. People do not live like animals who would be in danger if consent (after marriage) is given to fresh adults. Parents look after their children during their whole life. So exploitation is not possible nearly all the time.
For people to do adultere obviously they can do it with age fellow which is norm of western society. But in our society there is no sexual relation out of marital contract.
In western society parent teaches their teen to have safe sex. While in Islam they teach to them to have no sex out of marital bond. As only marriage is option for young muslims so they do it. While for marriage, girls prefer mature and established guy. So its more likely will be older then her. Even in west women who marry, prefer established and mature man. For dating though they need age fellow. As its just fulfilling sexual desire. Which is not the case in Islamic society.
If western laws are applied in Islamic society, then there will be a lot of problems.
That is why Islam only gives one solution which is to marry, dating is not allowed in islam.
Islamic family system is preserved because of that reason. While family system in west is destroyed (reason is not topic of this deabate).
Con’s
Once again, we are not arguing whether child marriage was common at the time.
We are arguing whether it was normal and as proven by the definitions above which Pro agreed to, they are distinct terminology.
Rebuttal
I think con’s memory is weak. Let me remind who mixed normal with common. He brought common term in debate so I responded.
“Whether child marriage was common in that time does not change the fact that it is unacceptable.”
I have dealt the common term as well as normal.
Con’s
Pro's BOP is not something he can meet. The Quran's reliability has been contested many times throughout history, so just because Pro claims it was a healthy relationship doesn't mean that it is because Muhammad could have changed the scripture say anything he wants.
Rebuttal
The thing is why most of people do not try to argue about this topic, because even they little bit start arguing they are labeled as predatory themselves. Happened with me a lot.
All scholars just give apologetic answers. And scratch the surface, while being present in west. They could be put into jails.
It took me 10 years to start this debate, otherwise I could not dare to start. This is very sensitive topic, not many people dare to talk about it. That is why non muslim take big advantage of it, and this issue remain un touched. I myself being precocious, still could not manage to marry. I married at the age of 30. I have no intrest in younger girls taking them my wife, in fact I prefer mature kind of same age as me. Strong and confident women for me. But I had to address the issue in great depth for the sake of my beloved Prophet (SAW) and Mother Aisha (RA).
That is why my opponent is amazed or astonished to see I could meet my BOP. And he cannot digest it. How he has to deal that much amount of data, that is why he picked only 2 statement from my previous round to be very confident that, stereotypical people will back him up. But I am sure on this debate I wont see Vote bomb, as I have not broken my own rules also those who will give votes in my favour maybe face problem as well, i do not know that.
I do not know why Con cannot see that I have proven the marriage was normal and he could not prove any abnormality, like he asked, physical or psychological damage to Aisha (RA). I have proven there was none.
While the issue was the maturity of Aisha ra which Con accepted to be existed and thus gave alternative, like hebephile and child grooming. I have given full scenario about the marriage. And from every angle we can see she was adult. Question was whether a girl can be mature at 9, we have seen its possible and would be considered as normal. While getting maturity below 7 would be considered as precocious. Which is also normal unless its because of some disease, then that person need treatment.
Then I gave full detail about Aisha ra, how she was mature. Everybody at that time considered her mature including Aisha (RA) herself. I mentioned hadith in first round where she said a 9 year old girl is adult.
Again i could not fully present rebuttal for next argument because of less space.
so i will continue in next round, i will give remaing arugment and conclusion in final round and aspect from my opponent as well, while he did not avail that in all his previous rounds.
Islam is best.
Be a muslim and show muslims are good people.
it seems compy arguments from Libreoffice into website causes space deleting error.
Admin solve the issue for Libreoffice.
Con
#8
Let's break this down and respond accordingly.:
- Entertaining the idea of instant physical maturation in children and adolescents isn't agreeing with it. Pro is having a hard time understanding this. The fact that kids grow at different rates is not new information.
- There is no "special diet" that can magically transform a kid into an adult. Nutrition and vitamins can maximize a child's optimal growth, but what Pro is suggesting is impossible.
- Even if either #1 or #2 were true, hypothetically speaking, this does not mean they are old enough to give consent. None of this compensates for Muhammad's 50 years of experience over her. There is still a power gap between Muhammad and Aisha.
Pro also seems to be forgetting the BOP, so let's talk about it.
- Pro must demonstrate that Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was not mentally traumatizing or physically harmful in anyway.
Since Muhammad raped her when she was nine, it is clear that Pro has lost on this argument alone.
My earlier sources prove that child marriage and war traumatize young children. Pro's rebuttals are direct quotes from the Quran which prove nothing. The Quran is not a reliable telling of historical events.
Pro talks about six year olds becoming mothers and I want to refute this point directly.
We have seen list of mothers who become adult at very young age in previous argument. From 7 year old to 12 years and lina medina was the extreme case to be mother at 6. let alone the maturity, Girls have become mother at very young age.If someone call a mother a child than that is the most weirder thing in the world to say.
Being able to physically bear children at such a young age doesn't mean it's ideal or preferable. To confuse the two to be synonymous is laughably absurd.
Teenagers give birth to children all the time and it doesn't mean they are old enough to shoulder the burden of responsibility.
The age of consent is 16 in Canada and most states in the United States; 15 in France; and 14 in Germany and Italy.Check this, that means Canadian should call all American and French pedophile and all American and french call German and Italian to be pedophile?Japan recently raised it to 16 while previously it was 13.I wonder what those law maker would be thinking when making age of consent 14 or 15.while this argument that a 53 year old man marry a 9 year old is nonsense, as far as both are happy about it.
Exactly, Pro.
If older men start marrying young girls as soon as they turn 16, we do call them pedophiles. As stated previously, there are criticisms to be made about Western laws of Age of Consent.
However, even in these countries where the age of consent is reportedly lower, people in Europe and Western society date closer to their age. This is why someone who technically meets the age of consent at age 15 won't be in a relationship with somebody where the age gap succeeds 3 years. If so, then the older party is scrutinized and shunned out of Western culture.
Pro conceded to my definitions earlier, but is still trying to appeal to the idea that child marriage is normal on the basis that age of consent laws are hypocritical. This is a bogus and ridiculous argument.
As I have shown, he was even 53 but he looked very young. He was very handsome, that much even a young man was nothing in front of him.Aisha (RA), loved him very much, he was handsome, kind, respectful, caring, gentle, warmhearted, polite, honest, sincere, faithful, intelligent, noble, strong, manly and what not which could be considered best of character.
What is also common in abuse victims?
"Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time. This condition applies to situations including child abuse, coach-athlete abuse, relationship abuse and sex trafficking."
Round 5
Pro
#9
Con’s
Being preyed upon by an older man who is the founder of his own cult already demonstrated a clear power gap and the fact that she is still a child at this point means she is more susceptible to his manipulation. She was groomed to believe that this type of relationship between a grown man and a kid is acceptable, which clearly implies this is not normal.
Rebuttal
⦁ Above statement clearly shows no debate is done at all between us and my opponent has given his opening argument. Whatever I have given above has been ignored or has not been read at all.
⦁ This statement do not have any proof at all, its just implication.
⦁ Marriage was not normal because my opponent says so?
⦁ Whatever my opponent utters is logical and acceptable and there is no need to give proof or argument and historical evidence or anything to support the implication?
⦁ When my opponent said Aisha ra was child then she is child? He is not going to accept science, medical conditions? He wont accept historical facts? He wont accept present examples and old examples?
⦁ He believes, she was manipulated, she was groomed, and controlled but where is proof? But i gave.
⦁ But maybe my opponent is time traveler or he was informed through some dream to know that?
⦁ When you claim something, you need to prove it as well.
⦁ About the authenticity of historical facts, its true if you doubt one source then this claim she was 9 year old also falls in same category.
⦁ Giving news and proving it is different thing, authenticity of resources is not the subject of this debate as well. Because it takes a separate long debate.
⦁ My opponent is just trying to argue about the authenticity of sources to deviate the topic at hand.
⦁ We are the presenter of this information that marriage occurred at 6 and 9 so the other info as well, naturally we have to consider all accurate. Otherwise we do not need to debate at all because there are other claims which suggest that marriage occurred at the age of 14 or 18 or 19 like that, we can take them as well and problem solved easily.
Con’s
Plenty of predators constantly make their victim of choice happy. This doesn't make their actions any less predatory.
Also Aisha was NOT an adult at nine years old. Please stop with this claim.
Rebuttal
It is none of my concern what predators do, not the part of debate. I had to prove that the marriage was normal, which I have proven in great detail.
Aisha was an adult which I have proven it not on claimed.
Con’s
Entertaining the idea of instant physical maturation in children and adolescents isn't agreeing with it. Pro is having a hard time understanding this. The fact that kids grow at different rates is not new information.
Rebuttal
We are Punjabi people, our daughters shoot up between the age of 12 and 16.”
this girl has grown so quickly that people accuse her mother to be injecting her hormonal injections.
Lina Medina started having mensuration at the age of 8 months the extremest case of precocious puberty.
But my opponent is dumbest of all, can not see it at all what I have wrote just wasting time with his nonsense.
Con’s
There is no "special diet" that can magically transform a kid into an adult. Nutrition and vitamins can maximize a child's optimal growth, but what Pro is suggesting is impossible.
Rebuttal
No magical diet is needed, only balance and rich in nutrient diet is needed to let grown quicker its common sense and everybody know it.
I am not suggesting any impossible thing. I have proven what is possible and has been seen already by many and is no myth at all.
But Con seems to have not read my arguments at all.
I hope voters will not do that as well. If it happened then I can understand why debating website like DDO was left for raping battles and anime character and this website as well going in same directions.
Obviously I can not waste my time with children's nonsense.
I have shown multiple time scientific information. Which Con is ignoring every single time.
I have never mentioned any diet which can magically transform a kid into an adult. I do not which part of debate Con is referring to. He seemed on weed when trying to respond to my argument.
It is a shame, Con comes up with these trash arguments every time he responds.
Con’s
Even if either #1 or #2 were true, hypothetically speaking, this does not mean they are old enough to give consent. None of this compensates for Muhammad's 50 years of experience over her. There is still a power gap between Muhammad and Aisha.
Rebuttal
What Con is talking about I do not understand at all. When a woman’s reproductive system is fully mature and brain as well and she is physically mature to take part as a medic in wars, I do not know what else he needs for any kind of decision.
Con suggested that person who reach 25 years can give consent to have sex with someone? He has to give the research to back that up. I do not get it which special powers a girl needs to be able to give consent. Con at least tell us that.
What does the power gap mean? And I was not aware of that, that some kind of power is stimulated between couples in the west or where Con lives.
If there is any that kind of power he must mention it, so that we can get enlightened. Also I want to know how that Power relates to age. I assume some powers go down with age not enhanced (I hope Con will understand what I mean here)
Jhonny Depp and embered heard 22 year of gap, while Jhony was one who was called old fat man.
And by Con’s definition Jhony depp should be called pedophile because the gap was of more then 3 years?
Con’s
Pro also seems to be forgetting the BOP, so let's talk about it.
Pro must demonstrate that Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was not mentally traumatizing or physically harmful in anyway.
Rebuttal
I am debating with dumb as well as blind man.
Use goggles, if you can not see, I have demonstrated it in great depth in my previous round. They were happy and Aisha herself narrated everything about the success of marriage, all the pleasant and beautiful moments she spent with Prophet (SAW).
If you doubt Narrations from where we got all the historical information then why are we arguing at all? Then you cannot prove the Prophet married 9 year old girl because the source is the same.
What can be more dumber than this?
I have never mentioned Quranic verses for this purpose, my opponent cannot distinguished what Quran and hadith is, and come to debate with me?
You have made me crazy with your ignorance.
Its like I am debating with some chicken who gets vertigo.
Still I would suggest go read where I have already responded about what you are asking again in 4th round. (SHAME).
Con’s
Since Muhammad raped her when she was nine, clearly Pro has lost on this argument alone.
Rebuttal
Dumb, this is a pure example of being ignorant and shows he never read what I have wrote in my rounds.
I am 100% sure he is cherry piking some statements which he only read, and responding like we have started debate now.
Dumbest person I have ever debated with. Childish behavior.
Indeed if we find voters to be like that, then debating any more on this platform would be simply a wastage of time nothing else.
I wonder why good debtors has left DDO and here I see them not debating at all.
This was the reason for downfall of DDO.
History is repeating.
But as I got some assurance that vote bomber would be dealt according to rules.
Lets see
Con’s
My earlier sources prove that child marriage and war traumatize young children. Pro's rebuttals are direct quotes from the Quran which prove nothing. The Quran is not a reliable telling of historical events.
Rebuttal
Someone go and pat the head of Con. This kid can not even read at all.
Are you in elementary?
The Least mentioned resource in this debate was Quran. Where did I respond about it from Quran?
I have responded to every single so-called no argument from Con with science from the very beginning.
As I have put 2 weeks for argument probably this kid has weak memory and forget whatever happened in previous rounds.
Take bonvita or almond and walnuts, probably you will improve your memory.
I have never mentioned even one event from Quran. What Con is doing is out of comprehension.
There is a proverb in our area. But I will give the English version.
A person tells the story of Romeo and Juliet during whole night and when at morning the listener asks was Juliet man or woman.
Sames goes for my opponent. FACEPALM.
He totally trolled the whole debate. Repetitive argument, my arguments were ignored.
Irrelevant arguments, baseless assertions, unproven claims.
The Whole debate is messed up by Con.
Such a waste of time.
Con’s
Pro talks about six-year-olds becoming mothers and I want to refute this point directly.
Being able to physically bear children at such a young age doesn't mean it's ideal or preferable. To confuse the two to be synonymous is laughably absurd.
Teenagers give birth to children all the time and it doesn't mean they are old enough to shoulder the burden of responsibility.
Rebuttal
Is this even the topic of debate? He has admitted that teenagers give birth to children all the time.
Its very very very rare in our society, but seems common in west, because parents are not perfectly able to teach them to have safe sex. That is why single parenting is at boom in the west.
This argument of my Con is totally against himself. He has proven my point right there.
In Islamic society, mother has no responsibility what so ever. All responsibility is on father.
Case close here.
But being physically to bear a child proves have mature reproductive system and scientifically all specie mate when their reproductive system matures.
As far as atheist person is concerned its normal and natural cycle of life and nature. Going against it going against nature and normality.
What is Sex?
Orgasms release endorphins, known as feel-good hormones, which may make people feel sleepy, relaxed, or happy afterwards.
This is something which every specie strive for when they reach puberty or their reproductive system matures. Scientifically female and male are ready to have sex.
This happens in all specie, atheist person shall know it. Waiting or delaying sex or boding with the opposite sex is subject of morals and ethics, which is concerned to religious people not atheists.
Moreover, what a female does in all specie is that they go for the dominant male or alpha male. It is also common among humans. And here you saying there was a huge power gap, you are dumb to say that, because this is what women want most of the time.
If you cannot understand human terms, then I have to educate the way you understand which is language of animals. Because you understand it very well.
You are going against mere rules set by nature itself.
Those hormones when awaken make you attracted toward the opposite sex, and not satisfying is against nature and the normal anatomy of human being and the same goes for any other specie.
Moreover, satisfying it is also related to hormones which please you. And you are saying there could some harm?
I do not know which harm you are talking about. We can not see any evidence from history, that there was harm at all.
Prove it dumb guy, where is harm recorded?
A girl can become pregnant and then become a mother and you say, she is unable to give consent?
Which rule are you talking about? It is not the rule of nature, it is totally against it.
Being a dumb atheist you should know that. If your stance is atheist. But it is totally apparent.
As we have seen, religions mostly solves problems that is why they have backed this thing.
It is atheists who are hypocrites, follow natural laws in some issues and totally deny in someplace its in their benefits.
Con’s
If older men start marrying young girls as soon as they turn 16, we do call them pedophiles. As stated previously, there are criticisms to be made about Western laws of the Age of Consent.
However, even in these countries where the age of consent is reportedly lower, people in Europe and Western society date closer to their age. This is why someone who technically meets the age of consent at age 15 won't be in a relationship with somebody where the age gap succeeds 3 years. If so, then the older party is scrutinized and shunned out of Western culture.
Pro conceded to my definitions earlier, but is still trying to appeal to the idea that child marriage is normal on the basis that age of consent laws are hypocritical. This is a bogus and ridiculous argument.
Rebuttal
its totally irrelevant, I am not here to debate about what happens in west and what they think if the age gap is big. I had to prove that marriage was normal and I have done it. Whatever you do in the west none of my concern or part of debate.
As you presented the argument of something being common. I responded that what is common and what was common and it is not something strange.
I do not find any logic for not having a gap between married couples. As I told you, female in all specie strive for dominant and alpha male age is totally irreverent. It simply means people do not have any freedom at all to choose their partner but society dictates whom they should marry.
Is this not a bad notion? It should be condemned not considered good. It is totally against freedom of choice and also against nature. In the wild and all around in world among other species, female is allowed to take her partner whomever she wants.
But among humans who should be allowed to dictate. Unless it is indeed really related to a child. For that I have already explained clearly, Islam does not allow consummation of marriage with child only contract is allowed which could only be retained if both parties agree in the end.
No matter how many times I repeat it, a blind person cannot read it. Whomever is helping you with reading, he or she is not doing job well.
About laws, as in definition, one part is related to definition and one to law, so I had to deal with both.
I have proven that laws are different, you call them hypocritical, but its truth we cannot decide multiparty on the basis of laws, as they are different within the same country in different states like USA. The Only choice left is medical and I have proven medically with 100% precision.
It is you dumbest person who says a person who can become a mother is not physically mature to give consent.
Consent is not the resolution. I had to prove that a nine-year old can be physically mature, which you agreed by saying teens become mothers all the time.
You have admitted my point and accepted your defeat yet satisfying yourself with dumb logic that they are not able to give consent, but do not give at what basis?
If I personally do your task and assume you meant 25-year-old argument related to cognitive maturation, then I have responded it already that kind of maturity cannot not be achieved even till your 50, that should not be taken basis for consent, if we do, then we have to wait for ages for marriage.
I have rebutted all your dumb arguments. I do not know what you are trying to prove being quick for posting your arguments.
I have done all above in 1 hour probably, so what?
I am a busy person, I have more priorities in life. That is why I was giving very little time to arguments from time to time, not that I was unable to respond sooner.
Con’s
What is also common in abuse victims?
"Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time. This condition applies to situations including child abuse, coach-athlete abuse, relationship abuse and sex trafficking."
Rebuttal
Nobody was captive at all and nobody has been abused. Totally irrelevant, we are not talking about bank robbery which is a crime.
Here there is a complete story that, Aisha (RA) was engaged to one person before but that engagement has been canceled. This is the biggest evidence, that she was mature, and probably precocious. And we already know Prophet (SAW) never even touched her for 3 years. She was left alone and let to enjoy her life. Then her father approached the Prophet (SAW) and asked to take his bride.
Moreover, she was then taken, and lived a happy life. She was a free person. Had family and relatives. She could rejected marriage during her free 3 years of time. She could rejected marriage at 9. she could tell about being abused after the passing of Prophet (SAW). She could marry again and while she remain faithful even after the death of the prophet (SAW).
When Prophet saw died, he was in her room head on her laps. And Aisha (RA) for the last time chewed a wooden toothbrush for him (SAW) and then he passed away in her laps.
A beautiful Love story, about a blind and ignorant mind and stubborn one cannot realize the beauty and wisdom of their marriage.
Conclusion of debate
- Con was never participant in the debate, he is doing most of the time one sided, and kept repeating his arguments which I have already responded to in great depth.
- Con kept presenting alternatives when refuted, kept repeating like he has never read my rebuttal.
- Con do not know, one could rebut the rebuttal, if he had any problem with it, but he remain ignoring.
- Con remain presenting self-contradictory arguments, which I have refuted and identified to be self-contradictory as well.
- Enough of mentioning in capability of con now lets go what I have done.
Pro’s Case
- A pedophile is someone who is interested in children.
- Hebephile is one who is only interested in children.
- Child grooming is when a person takes advantage of a child and his family.
- A child is one who has not reached the age of puberty.
- Puberty is when a child started having sing of getting sexually and physically mature even mentally as well.
- Puberty is not a point of time but a period of time.
- Puberty can start as less as 7 years old for girls and 8 for boys and would be considered as normal.
- Puberty which starts before 7 is called precocious puberty.
- Puberty is a period of time, so this period could be between 2 to 5 years, which means the onset of puberty for a person the time period he or she can take to become an adult could take 2 to 5 years.
- If puberty starts at 7, the minimum normal age for a girl and it takes a minimum time period of 2 years, then she could become an adult at 9 years old.
- In the case of precocious puberty, even a person can be an adult before 7 or 8 years old.
- Precocious puberty is also a normal course of action for some children. But sometimes this could be cause of some disease.
- As we can know from above scientific research backed by many publishers of scientific and medical research that a person could be an adult at 9 years old or even earlier.
- The extreme example of precocious puberty was Lina Medina who started having menstruation at little as 8 months old and was not a very old case but in the 1930s. She gave birth to a baby boy at the age of 6 and got pregnant at the age of 5 when she was raped, which was a very tragic accident. I feel very sorry about it.
- We have seen a lot of girls getting pregnant at the age of as low as 7 to 18 and Lina Medina was the rarest case to be at 6 in medical history.
- This information above suggests that an adult at 9 is not extraordinary is rarer than other cases mentioned above.
- We have seen that Aisha (RA) was case or precocious puberty that is why Khalaw (A marriage bureau at that time) presented Aisha (RA) to be having the age of marriage to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
- Which proves that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) never approached toward Aisha (RA) for marriage but she was presented to him (SAW).
- Aisha (RA) was engaged to another guy before Muhammad (SAW) which also proves she was at the age of marriage, that person was not muslim and they themselves dissolved the marriage or engagement.
- Aisha was not physically strong to carry marital responsibility at 6 and her mother was concerned about it, so she took good care of her and provided her suitable diet, kind of look like she was very much regulated about diet and was given very healthy and we already have seen in debate that date is perfect diet and very nutritious diet cucumber with the benefits of providing good amount of anti oxidant to give good health benefits. Which clicked for Aisha (RA) and she became healthy.
- When her mother saw that Aisha is physically mature and mentally as well. She talked with her husband and then he went to the Prophet (SAW) that now the marriage can be consummated.
- It is an obvious picture of how marriage was done.
- Aisha, at the same time, took part in war as medic, while Prophet (SAW) sent back a boy who was 14 years old from war but when he tried to take part in the next war when he was 15 he was taken.
- It proves that maturity was taken under consideration when recruiting soldiers and medic.
- Moreover, A mere child cannot take part as a medic in war because the trauma could be unbearable.
- Neither her parents nor Prophet (SAW) would allow a child to be taken in war as medic, especially when she is married to Prophet saw.
- During war, the Prophet’s (SAW) own daughter attended the wounds of the Prophet (SAW). It proves she was not living with the Prophet, but the marriage was consummated after this war.
- After the marriage there is no trauma or mental issue has been recorded by any historian at all. In fact, marriage was successful and they both loved each other very much.
- There was no physical harm or mental harm recorded at all. While non Muslims from all religions were living around Muslims and could have highlighted this issue.
- Prophet Muhammad (SAW) head was in the laps of Aisha (RA) in her house when he (SAW) died and she was tearing and never married again and never complaint about marriage in her whole life but loved and was proud of it.
- He lived a life of scholar and honorable lady, on whom one order Muslim went to war with the present Khalifa (RA) and beloved son-in-Law of the prophet (SAW). Which shows she was never powerless but she was very powerful during the life of the prophet saw and ever after him.
- So she could have told all the abuses to all the people at large in her later life. Which she did not, proves she had no regret.
- She was proud of being the virgin wife of prophet. Once she asked Prophet (SAW), which tree is better in your eyes from whom a lot of camels have eaten or the tree which has been fresh and no camel has eaten from it. (she was referring her virginity over all other wives of the prophet saw) whom were divorced or widowed. And Prophet (SAW) replied obviously the fresh one. Even though at another place Prophet (SAW) told Aisha (RA) that among best of my wives were his first wife Khadija (RA). But she died when the Prophet married to Aisha (RA). So that is why the prophet loved Aisha the most among all his living wives.
- We have seen how great behavior prophet (SAW) and with Aisha (RA).
- The normality of their life has been mentioned in one of the hadith when one asked Aisha (RA) herself how is prophet with you. She replied like anyone can live in marital life and she mentioned about chores in which prophet was helping her.
- Finally I would say, from every information mentioned in the debate shows that the marital life of Aisha (RA) and Muhammad (SAW) was normal in every sense. I have proven it with the saying of Aisha (RA) herself.
- If my opponent is denying resources then, that is not part of the debate, because that must be considered true as it is the basis of debate.
- The accusation of her being prepubescent also come from the same sources. one can not deny some information from the same source and some accept.
- The resources I used are Hadith there are very less Quranic references.
- Arguments about the west were extra, they were never the part of debate but could strengthen the arguments like a catalyst.
- Though my opponent did not take part in the debate but behaved like a troll, but I took it as an opportunity to present my full case.
- I suggest to my opponent, he should take serious stance in any new debate with me otherwise do not take part at all.
- I end my case here, with the prayer, May Allah guide everyone to the light of Islam and take away the arrogance in the heart which makes them blind and deaf amen.
- Islam is best
- Be a Muslim and show Muslims are good people.
Con
#10
My opponent has not met the BOP and thus dropped the following arguments.:
- Child marriage traumatizes children.
- Aisha was enslaved to Muhammad and a victim of Stockholm Syndrome.
- Muhammad is either a pedophile or hebephile.
- Their marriage was not normal.
I waive the last round.
Vote Con!
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
ARUGMENTS: Con.
RFD comments:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533-islam-vs-anything2?open_tab=comments&comments_page=1&comment_number=228
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533-islam-vs-anything2?open_tab=comments&comments_page=1&comment_number=229
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533-islam-vs-anything2?open_tab=comments&comments_page=1&comment_number=230
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Basically a bunch of special pleading, including that pedophilia is or was normal if the pedo is sexy... 🤢
Full vote at:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54806
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
This one is a hard one considering that I do not agree with Pro and that I completely agree with Con's stance and what he is trying to say. A 9 year old girl is not old enough to marry in any circumstance I have ever seen and there was no proof that it was not traumatic to the girl. To cite that the prophet would fondle her during menstruation makes it even more creepy and doesn't alleviate my feelings that this poor girl was not used as a political pawn to a dirty old man. I do not think that Pro's views of trying to grab the extreme scenario of puberty in this case would make it ever okay for a nine year old to marry and have sex with an much older adult man.
Never the less, I believe Pro did bring a solid argument for his view and Con did not properly refute them all. However, Pro's conduct was terrible in his last round by insulting con and the website that gave him the platform to spout his view. Then goes on to say Islam is the best.
Though I do appreciate Con and his abilities, but I think he fell short on this one, however Pro's extreme stance and his conduct would make this a tie.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Both sides play very defensively here, which prevents either of them from meeting their BoP. Con's definition of normal goes uncontested. Con gives a lot of compelling evidence that child abuse is wrong and that child grooming is a problem. Pro gives much more specific evidence relating to Mohammed and Aisha, though none of this is sufficient to prove that no abuse was going on. So I'm left with very credible circumstantial evidence that this relationship definitely could have been abusive, and less credible but more focused evidence specific to this case, which raises enough doubt that neither BoP is met.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Pro opened the door for Con to set the framework. Con setup a framework. I have a serious issue to contend with. It is clear that english is no Pro's first language, and I believe that he deserves extra consideration for that. There are countless grammatical and literary errors by Pro, that if taken literally would paint their argument is moot. However it appears that Pro took an exceptional amount of time to preapre their arguments.
Con states "Pro must defend that Muhammad’s marriage to a nine year old is not strange or unusual and that it was healthy for both participants."
Specifically "marriage to a nine year old IS not strange". The problem I have with this statement is that Pro may not have picked up on the "is" vs "was" nuance because of his ESL. That is a cornerstone of this debate. So I have to look at this now to see, all thing being equal, did Pro demonstrate the burden, that I think was the understanding, "marriage to a nine year old was normal"
Pro uses an abundance of quotations and references to Islamic writtings to support his position. I lean towards Pro, because there are many non Quran sources. There are many Hadith references which are not written by Muhammad, much like the Book of Luke, albiet with a much more profound scholaraly depiction, rather than an individual perspective. Pro did a great job referencing from multiple sources.
Can those sources be refuted? Certainly, however Con has refuted them with a current mindset of what is normal. Con brings up a valid point about the accuracy and reliability of those de[ictions, and I agree with Con, the story has been twisted over time to present the best foot. However that assumption both Con and I share is not proof. Unfortunatly Con does not properly impeach the evidence presented by Pro.
The references to various ages of consent around the world today, clearly demonstrsates a lack of global unity in the maturiy argument. I think this was a very interesting argument to deligitimize the moral grandstanding some would want to make on the issue. Con is not grandstanding, however this argument does cause one to scratch their head in thought.
Con brings up some great points about the mental, and physical health, which I find I agree with, I have to distance myself from those thoughts. The Romans shared sponges to wipe their asses in comunal toilets. Normal yes, healthy no. Do we judge on our current standards? I have to revert to the BOP.
Aisha was a child, under todays definitions. The argument about puberty by Pro is pointless and nonsense. A special diet? However it all has no merit on the underling burden of proof. The core burden I see, was the marriage "normal". I think Pro established a long multi-cultural history of marriages occuring very young. In addition Pro outlines the definition of a woman being over 9 AND menstrsating in Islam.
I am not a fan of Pro's conduct in the later rounds. I think the accusations of trolling are unwarranted, and the personal attacks on Sir Lancelot terrible. I have brought this up to him many times. Unfrortunatly that conduct was not egrigious enough.
And whilst I agree with most of what Con wrote, the BOP is clear. I therefore award to Pro, because Pro showed a historical pattern to the young marriages, and I accept that the intent of this debate was the Aisha marriage was normal at the time, not based on todays standards. I urge Pro to take a real hard look at their conduct on this site and in debates.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con's case:
P1) Children cant consent
P2) Aisha was a child
C) Aisha could not have consented
P1) Marriage without consent isnt normal
P2) Aisha's marriage was without consent
C) Aisha's marriage was not normal
This entire case falls apart, since Con didnt explain how is consent determined, therefore destroying the premise that Aisha was a child who is unable to give consent. Con says consent is determined by brain development, then he says brain fully develops at age 25. Clearly, the age of consent cannot be 25, otherwise every second person would be in prison.
Pro, on the other hand, gives clear case about how consent is determined. High intelligence, menstruation and ability to give birth means the person is no longer a child and is able to consent to marriage. Thats how it works in nature. Pro gives proper way to to determine ability of a person to give consent. Further, Pro points out that Aisha was considered very smart, consented to marriage and was happy about it for her whole life. She never changed her mind. Pro points out that some children are smarter than adults.
This pretty much negates the argument of marriage being forced, unconsensual or physically harmful. It also negates the argument of grooming, which I find a bit irrelevant to the topic anyway. If we know that Aisha was highly intelligent, able to give birth, able to consent, and consented to marriage, then grooming doesnt apply.
Regarding trauma, Pro gives plenty of evidence that there was no trauma for Aisha, that she loved being in that marriage. We cant just assume that there was trauma, when all historical records point to opposite. Con presents evidence from other cases, but such evidence simply doesnt apply to this topic since this case has clear evidence of Aisha being 1) happy, 2) being different, since she matured much faster.
So I think Pro wins this. The last two rounds got a bit dirty. Pro probably shouldnt have used so many insults in conclusion, but I dont think it harms their case. A conduct point would be lost if it was 4 point system.
.
Papertiger,
YOUR OUTRIGHT SICKENING QUOTE: "you are kidding me? i have proven she was not child, people of that time saw her adult. and precious puberty is reason for that."
When your desert sweaty imbecile Muhammed married Aisha she was only SIX YEARS OLD, whereas you forgot to say this FACT, then "allegedly" when your prophet consummated the marriage, she was NINE YEARS OLD to be able to SCREW her little body! Can you see your pathetic imbecile Muhammed climbing on top of a 9 YEAR OLD GIRL AND SCREWING HER MOUTH, ANUS AND VAGINA? HUH?
QUESTION: Relative to the FACTS shown above, would you allow your daughter to be in the same situation of marriage to a Muslim man when she is 9 YEARS OLD? YES?
RECENT "HAMAS LITTLE GIRL CHILD BRIDES" GROUP MARRIAGES TO MUSLIM MEN THAT IS OKAY TO YOUR WAY OF THINKING IN THE 21ST CENTURY, YOU SICKENING PUKEY MUSLIM FOOL!!!:
https://iranpoliticsclub.net/photos/muslim-child-brides/images/Muslim%20Child%20Brides%20Arab%20Group%20Wedding%20Hamas%20Palestine.jpg
.
No one is expected to vote perfectly from the start. There’s a learning curve to be sure.
-> “ Con did a better job on two points which Pro did not counter ( Child marriage traumatizes children. and
Aisha was enslaved)”
Again this vote falls short on analysis. Basically it would not be fair to the effort pro put in to treat this debate as a foregone conclusion.
While referencing one side of the debate, and suggesting there were no replies to the two contentions named, at least one contention put forward by the other side should be named. The “precious puberty” line of reasoning for example, and how con overcame it.
In order for a vote to stand, moderation should be under the impression you have some understanding of both sides (it need not be complete understanding, but some).
A decent layout for a vote would be a quick gist of how each side tried to argue, followed by why you believe one came ahead.
Thanx for the feedback. I did not intend to break policy. It was my error.
I have corrected and voted again in adherence to the policy.
That may not please everyone, but I along with 2 others have voted for Con, so it appears to be accurate.
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#arguments
Arguments
Goes to the side that, within the context of the debate rounds, successfully affirms (vote pro) or negates (vote con) the resolution. Ties are possible, particularly with pre-agreed competing claims, but in most cases failing to affirm the resolution means pro loses by default.
Weighing entails analyzing the relative strength of one argument or set of arguments and their impacts against another argument or set of arguments. Weighing requires analyzing and situating arguments and counterarguments within the context of the debate as a whole.
again vote bomb, take the voting privileges from that guy. repeated vote bomb. It shows, all my efforts was to fill the pages and no one want to fcking read it even.
what am i doing here then?
shall i call for self ban as well?
this is totally demotivating for me to do any further debates.
you are kidding me? i have proven she was not child, people of that time saw her adult. and precious puberty is reason for that.
con never proven any trauma for my case and also there was no enslavement as well because it was marriage. and she was engaged before.
general cases cant be used for this case. this is based on specific case.
how many times you are going to vote bomb?
I was attempting to be sensitive to the beliefs of others.
It was not to be a vote on religious grounds.
Con did a better job on two points which Pro did not counter ( Child marriage traumatizes children. and
Aisha was enslaved)
I included the UN as a neutral third party support for my vote.i
If this was wrong, well .....In the words of Steve Martin......"EXCUSSSSSSE Me!"
While I wholly agree with you, your vote needs to be expanded with positive answers to two simple questions:
1. Did con make said argument about the UN?
2. What was pro’s attempted defense?
Additionally, your vote should contain a minimum of one contention from pro and how con countered it.
prefix
08.20.2023 10:20AM
#7
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
If one is to avoid the argument of whose moral judgement is superior, and look instead to making a judgement based on a universal morality, one may turn to the United Nations.
The UN describes it thus "Child and forced marriage:[ is ] a violation of human rights"...https://www.ohchr.org/en/stories/2016/11/child-and-forced-marriage-violation-human-rights
[
The point goes to Con.
Can you respond toward vote bomb by prefix ?
another vote bomb, please address thanks
😔😔😔
Please review the voting policy:
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#vote-removal
While your vote gets to the heart of the matter as you see it, it seemed to not give pro any chance to prove “normal” by any standard. Both debaters put a lot of work in, and while you don’t need to go down every rabbit hole, more analysis is needed if assigning points.
06.28.2023 06:30AM
#7
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Pro uses the word "normal" which could mean anything depending on the cultural context and then tries to warp biology to justify Mohammad fucking a 9 year old. Con points out that this is nonsense and points out that Mohammad had control of the narrative.
Don’t take it personal.
That whiny loser reports everyone’s votes.
I cannot report anything physically, as you have made it be. I want to report fischaser's RFD.
Please attend, thank you.
Thanks for the vote!
I do not shit on people, I do it in toilet, believe me LOL
No, I just think its funny you shit on someone, without mentioning them, but can't do the same in private messages.
Is it crime to do? If I did mention then what is the big deal?
It's not completely about changing someones mind, but you complain when you can't even to the direct person.
If you don't want to go deep into it, don't complain in the comments about it. Simple.
Comment two:
That's why I deleted it. Funny you have no complaint but compare me to him..
I was talking with rationalmadman, as he blocked me I can't tag him, simple
If I prove it in private messages, would you change your mind? I guess probably not. I did for barney but no benefit. On the other hand your RFD was very long, I am already tired from that debate and wanted to have rest and give time to my family, that is why I did not want to go in deep with it.
I have no complaint toward you at all so far.
"But, the votes I call vote bomb, I can prove them here by discussing them in full detail. But I do not want to waste my time on that. Probably I will do debate on this topic again in near future."
If your not willing to discuss to the "fullest" in private messages, why exploit what you say in comments?
If your going to complain about my vote, why not complain to the person directly especially when you messaged them in the first place?
I can see getting busy but I don't think that's quite the case right now.
I have been nothing but honest towards you in our exchanges.
"2+2=4!"
2+2 is not 24
Would you wanna be a judge, BrotherD?
We can probably arrange for you to judge on the debate.
.
Slainte,
YOUR MORE THAN STUPID QUOTE RELATIVE TO MUSLIM MEN MARRYING PREPUBESCENT GIRLS: “In reality those photos are not brides.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hamas-wedding-girls/
You are not helping the argument when you are posting propaganda”
What did you expect from the hell bound Muslim crowd to TRY and save embarrassment that the said photographs WERE NOT Muslim men marrying prepubescent young girls?!!! HELLO, anybody home today? Priceless stupidity on your part!
.
A QUOTE FROM THE LINK YOU GAVE ME IN TRYING TO HIDE THE OBVIOUS IN SAID MEN MARRYING PREPUBESCENT GIRLS SHOWN IN SAID IMAGES: “Although the photographs and video footage did originate with the July 2009 mass wedding event, and they do show pre-pubescent girls dressed in clothing resembling bridal garb holding hands with older men, the young girls in these pictures were not being married off to adult males; they were relatives of the brides and grooms (typically nieces and cousins ranging in age from three to eight years old) who were merely ancillary participants in the ceremony, performing a function similar to that of flower girls in western-style weddings.”
.
For your embarrassment, take note of the quote above explicitly stating the following to HIDE the facts of grown Muslim men marrying prepubescent young girls:
1. “Although the photographs and video footage did originate with the July 2009 mass wedding event,"
YES, the FACT of these men marrying prepubescent girls, DUH!
.
2. “and they do show pre-pubescent girls dressed in clothing resembling bridal garb holding hands with older men,”
YES, they do show prepubescent girls DRESSED IN CLOTHING RESEMBLING BRIDAL GARB, then WHY were they dressed in said “bridal garb” to begin with if they were NOT being married to Muslim men that are 4 TIMES BIGGER THAN THE GIRLS SHOWN? .... HELLO? 2+2=4!
.
3. “they were relatives of the brides and grooms (typically nieces and cousins ranging in age from three to eight years old)”
Really? Then where were the young MALE RELATIVES dressed up in holding hands with the grown men pictured that were 3 to 8 years old? How come they were all prepubescent GIRLS?!.... Get it fool?
.
4. “who were merely ancillary participants in the ceremony,”
Really? Then why were there ONLY ONE “ancillary” participant GIRL ONLY in holding hands with the GROWN MALE from all of a parents relatives? Again, where are the 3 to 8 year old dressed up boys??!! GET IT FOOL?
The preponderance of the evidence shown, is this was in INITIAL FACT a marriage of grown Muslim men to innocent prepubescent young girls to be able to FUCK THEM AS PEDOPHILES when the marriage ceremony was over in the name of Islam! I am truly sorry about your lack of intellect in being able to swallow said link in trying so hard to HIDE the aforementioned FACT that this was a sickening marriage!
TIGERLORD REFERRED TO 9 YEAR OLD GIRLS IN HIS DEBATE WHERE IT WAS OKAY FOR GROWN MUSLIM MEN TO MARRY THEM, DO THE SIMPLE MATH SLAINTE!
You are excused for being outright stupid in swallowing said link, therefore promiss the membership that you won’t be that gullible again relative to the topic at hand, okay? We thank you in advance.
.
In reality those photos are not brides.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hamas-wedding-girls/
You are not helping the argument when you are posting propaganda.
I have found a way to have judges for my debates, problem solved. And slainte, if I lose that means I have weakness in my knowledge, while Islam is perfect. So loosing is what from which you should learn.
But, the votes I call vote bomb, I can prove them here by discussing them in full detail. But I do not want to waste my time on that. Probably I will do debate on this topic again in near future.
Right now I wanted to spend this weekend with my family, let's see when I will do it again, though before that I need to familiarize with some people, I think are honest. And I can make them judges on my debates.
.
TIGERLORD, WHAT DIDN'T YOU UNDERSTAND IN "YOUR" FOLLOWING QUOTES WHERE "YOU" SAID THAT YOU WERE LEAVING THIS DEBATE FORUM?!
1. “There must be a way on this website site to avoid these kinds of things. If there is no way, "then I am going to leave it.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54005
2. “This will be my last debate" if I have to face these kinds of people.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54599
3. “How can I stand at a place" where dogs like thomas can get 1166 likes."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54638
4. BARNEY ADDRESSING TIGERLORD WANTING TO LEAVE DEBATEART: “You are welcome to find a safe space debate site, where no disagreements are allowed."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54650
5. “ … if someone is doing blasphemy against Allah and prophet, "Quran ordered us to leave that place."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54651
6. “but i am leaving this place as its very biased."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54833
7. “ …. i am going to destory these 2 last voters "and then delete my account after copying my debate.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54836
8. “ …. and will report to head moderator. if nothing happens "i am off from this website.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54848
.
TIGERLORD, aka "Paper Tiger," you are giving your sickening Islamic faith a bad name, as if it doesn't already have one, in remaining here WANTING ANOTHER DEBATE like you said in your post #291? LOL! When are you going to learn that YOU ARE A LOSER, not only in debates, but in swallowing the abhorred faith of ISLAM that allows Muslim men to MARRY AND FUCK LITTLE 9 YEAR OLD GIRLS TODAY AS OUTRIGHT PEDOPHILES as sickeningly shown in the links below!
https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEM0AFX
https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEM0AFY
https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEM0AX2
.
You will need to ask for judges that exercise full tabula rasa voting. And you may still lose. Can you handle a loss?
No matter how many times you come, I can defeat you. I can already see how hard you tried to make it tie, and for defeating you will embarrass yourself more.
But I never run from this, I can start another debate when I want and when it will be necessary with whomever I want and whenever I want. Though I have learned one thing, I should choose judges and only choose who are unbiased, and there will be not even single Muslims in it.
Now get rest and I know how much upset you guys are being helpless.
bye and plz do not disturb.
"Rule NO 12: Everything I am saying and doing, for the sake of debate, must not be called predator."
Now I understand why this was a rule.
He’s long gone from the site by now.
I find the true value of a debate, is to read the votes. How was the message received? I did not agree with you at all, yet I still voted for you, because for me... the BOP is most important. Other voters will be more influenced by their own opinions, or see what I saw in a very different way. That is life. I have talked with people who voted against me, and thank them for the time they take to read my material, and give feedback. That is such a precious thing.
Enjoy the relationships, learn from the comments, and grow with it.
For any actual Muslims (as opposed to trolls impersonating Muslims to make Islam look bad), I’ve started a forum topic related to this debate:
Non-fallacious defenses of Muhammad?
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9532-non-fallacious-defenses-of-muhammad
Thomas, Son of zina,
You ask me to refute your statements, then proceed to post Islamic texts which are against arguing and debating.
Which one is it? do you want me to stop arguing with me, or do you want me to refute you? pick a side its not that hard
i have already refuted you in a thread in the forums called "beauties of Islam" to which you were left speechless, and have still not responded to after ages.
the contents within #202 have already been refuted in that thread in the forums
.
TIGERLORD, WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE AS A LIAR IN FRONT OF YOUR CAMIL FUCKER ALLAH GOD?
What part of the following that YOU, I repeat, YOU STATED that you don't understand HYPOCRITE Muslim?!
1. “There must be a way on this website site to avoid these kinds of things. If there is no way, "then I am going to leave it.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54005
2. “This will be my last debate" if I have to face these kinds of people.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54599
3. “How can I stand at a place" where dogs like thomas can get 1166 likes."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54638
4. BARNEY ADDRESSING TIGERLORD WANTING TO LEAVE DEBATEART: “You are welcome to find a safe space debate site, where no disagreements are allowed."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54650
5. “ … if someone is doing blasphemy against Allah and prophet, "Quran ordered us to leave that place."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54651
6. “but i am leaving this place as its very biased."
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54833
7. “ …. i am going to destory these 2 last voters "and then delete my account after copying my debate.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54836
8. “ …. and will report to head moderator. if nothing happens "i am off from this website.”
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4533/comments/54848
TIGERLORD, NOW LEAVE LIKE YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DO AS SHOWN ABOVE! When you leave, the removal of the "Camel Stench" will go with you because of your abhorred Islam religion directly allows CHILD MOLESTATION from babies to NINE YEAR OLD innocent girls!
GET THE FUCK OUT HERE!
.
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Best of luck finding your desired safe space, free from any disagreements.
i considered the RFD of best.korea the best one, if you consider his vote to be vote bomb, and barney's good one and bellas' as well, then i am out of here, any ways. though i would say honesty is best policy.
i got what is this place like.
i am done with it.
I think there is option to delete account.
all efforts in vain,
other debate you instigated, i will drop that as well.
A vote bomb would have to at least constitute a deliberation without reading the debate.
Best.Korea’s vote is a vote-bomb. The rest are not.
I don’t consider them vote-bombs on the basis that they don’t display any biases and have shown a reading of the debate.
In my opinion, they’re fair votes.
One more thing though, as Sir.lancelot himself considered the last two votes to be vote bomb, that is enough for me to confirm that they are. If you realize that is a big thing, and why he said that? It is because he wanted to win fair and square.
Any ways, his acknowledgment is a big deal for me.
Thanks, everyone.
On the other hand I am a bit rusty, otherwise on DDO every opponent was forfeiting maximum 3rd round, I should have not left any roam to let people even vote bomb.
i said have fun kids LOL