You ask me 5 questions about your past, present or future. I use tarot to answer them.

While Jesus surrounded himself with the rich.

While surrounding himself with cut-throat Galilean Zealots

Religion hurts people all of the time. Wylted. And in many ways. Jehovah's witnesses' don't agree with higher education for their own children. I am sure you can guess why that is.

Well, I admit to getting the wrong message there.

Norway  had a ruling that they cannot recieve state funding due to their shunning practices. The JWs sued and claimed they don't shun and in the second day if court the state showed a video of watchtower own disfellowship videos. 

Personally I think if I ran a church I would refuse state funding. It seems like I could lead to some perverse incentives to follow the state overGod.i don't know how things work over there or why itis okay to directly fund churches with tax payer money. 

https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/world/jehovahs-witnesses-sue-norway-after-registration-revoked/

I am sure you can find a direct link to the shunning video played in court but here is an ex JW who breaks down the video played in court https://youtu.be/B6oJj7huPsU?si=CYjEbDgUbnRsK-QQ

So these people refuse to vote because they don't want to be involved in governelment. Refuse to participate in any sort of patriotic activities but demand the government hands them money. 

I understand your point. I mentioned how religion hurt me and then you mentioned a specific way that JWs harm their people and so I branched off of that to mention another way the organization has hurt people through disfellowship. The state funding part was a side tangent and not related to my main point.

Well that would be  known as excommunication in the field of religion.

Have you not read of the excommunication of   Ananias and his wife Sapphira in the bible? 

I don't remember that story. I am putting it on my watch later list on youtube now.

its a new testamant bible story. I doubt you'll find anything on youtube? But I could be wrong.

It's on there.  Mostly descriptions from a Christian perspective. It's  seems like an over reaction on God's part. My understanding of th story is they were living in a communal way and ananias sold his property and was going to hive damn near all of it to the community but wanted to keep a very small part to himself. 

They were proud that they negotiated a great price for the property. However despite going above and beyond to bring the church a lot of money, then keep a tiny bit for themselves and were essentially struck dead for lying about this sin. 

They keep talking about how it is a reminder about how easy sin can creep in but I keep thinking, they didn't have to sell the damn property at all. Maybe be thankful you got anything but no Peter essentially encourages God to strike them dead. 

I have to look into it more. I know I am missing something. I only heard the part of the toy where thy are struck down for what thy did but I am wondering if it is discussed why thy were selling the property or if there is more background information on them

But it wasn't a literal physical  "death".  It was an excommunication from the movement; a spiritual death if you like

You are.

I will try and explain it to you with this question. If you, I and a few others started a movement and we called it The Movement Of The Living , and anyone outside of our circle we called the "dead ",  from where would we raise more new members from amongst?

That's not what I got but I watched a few videos and still didn't read it. 

It feels like the answer should be from raising the dead.  If you are going to try and take me down the Richard carrier rabbit hole, I am willing to come along for the ride but the myth hypothesis seems silly to me and on par with stuff like 9/11 conspiracy theories.  

Nope. Just stating biblical facts  to you. You are entitled to believe what you will, Wylted. I am not in the business of conversion or convincing.

That reasoning actually makes a ton of sense 

I just spent a lot of time on DDO when I was an atheist still, debunking the fringe conspiracies that Jesus was a myth and that Paul was trying to teach some sort of gnostic message and meant Jesus was a type of thing to aspire to be. Like the new ages who speak of christ consciousness or of being ascended. 

Hold on wasn't Lazarus a physical death?

No. 

I think I understand your position here. 

The bible states Lazarus was physically raised from the dead and that aninas and his wife were physically killed.

I thought what you were saying before that because somebody becomes spiritually death they could be physically killed  and it was your position that since ananius and his wife were spiritually dead than it wouldn't be seen as unethical. 

So you are essentially saying these people are speaking in riddles and when physical death is mentioned they mean spiritual death. 

I am assured by Catholics that they have direct lines to at the very least Peter and if Paul was teaching Peter gnosticism. Why would the catholic church take the Bible literally and why wouldn't Peter correct this or even Paul correct these teachings so the church remained true to the gnostic teachings he wanted to spread? 

Anyone in Jesus' circle were called the living. Anyone not in that circle were referred to as being dead.

What I am saying is that in all these instances of "raising the DEAD" that  it is simply a case of being "raised" from outside of the circle and from among those that were referred to or considered as being spiritually dead into the circle of the "living" .  . It was a simple case of initiation.  From that point on some followers/disciples were then again raised within the circle to higher degrees of initiation  as was the case of Lazarus. He was in the process of being "raised" to a higher degree in the Jesus movement but decided against it . It appears then that Jesus was able to convince him to stay.

Its my guess that Lazarus was offered the position of High Priest should the Jesus mission be successful and Jesus became King and so decided to stay.

That is not what I am reading here https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011%3A1-45&version=NIV

I don't think the average person reading this story will think it comes across as Jesus offering somebody a promotion. 

So I am curious as to why you would interpret the passages in this link to mean offering a promotion as opposed to raising the dead and why they wouldn't word it more plainly if the story was meant to convey something else. 

I do understand in some ways why somebody would derive occult meanings from these verses. I have seen people think the bible stories represent astrology or Jerry and Esther hicks getting some interesting interpretations from the words of the Bible. 

I am curious why a skeptic such as yourself would derive this occult type of symbolism from the bible.  I assume you don't believe the conclusions of the occult symbolism and normally it is more new age type people who think about things in this occult way. 

Here is the verses if you don't feel like clicking on the link

11 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”
8 “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”
9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus
17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two miles[b] from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
28 After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29 When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34 “Where have you laid him?” he asked.
“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”
37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”
Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead
38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

It seems to even mention the smell of death and the body being in a grave and his face wrapped like a mummy. I am not sure what type of occult symbolism this would be.

You know there is a rule about constantly derailing a thread right?

Stop being pedantic. You insist you get laid but you act like a 12 year old tattle tale that annoys the teachers.

I literally wrote the COC and derailing threads was not something I put in there. 

there's more to life than getting laid firstly. The fact you think otherwise suggests you're barely older than the tattle tale you mention.

I am not a tattle tale in this situation, I didn't go behind your back to the mods here did I?

It's the same vibe. It is you being mean to me for no discernable reason. It doesn't matter what I do you will find a way to use that action to attack my character. Here it is me engaging with Stephen in a way that is unusual for this section of the forum. In a way where I invite him to share an interesting take he has on Christianity instead of me atta king him or his beliefs. 

I notice that you haven't insulted his character and he began conversation diverting from the main topic of this thread and I am merely reciprocating. 

tattle tale bully, that's a force to be reckoned with

I am happy you found a vibe you can be proud of having. 

If it makes you happy to be a dick that reflects more on you than me. You being a dick to me in this thread was entirely unprovoked . 

I know the verses very well, Wylted. And to explain to you what is going on here would take probably pages. So I will try a short cut. 

Look at this verse from your link and tell me what you believe Thomas the disciple meant?

John 11:16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

I assume it i due protecting jesus from enemies when he plans to head to hostile territory. 

I have went to jesusneverexisted.com because I believe that is likely where your argument is inspired. So I was reading what the site says about lazarus but it's not coming up other than briefly and the theory isn't talked about once but I will revisit the site index and see if I am overlooking anything. 

Well they were not in "hostile territory" in this instance, were they? They were relaxing by the river and the only mention of "death" is that of Lazarus. And neither were they heading for "hostile territory", they were heading for Bethany because it was now said by Jesus that Lazarus had "died".

Look at the preceding verses:

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

This is immediately followed by Verse 16. "“Let us also go, that we may die with him.”  so they can only be talking of Lazarus' "death"  and not dying with Jesus in the course of "protecting" him as you have assumed..

Jesus was said to have " loved Lazarus" , but on hearing the news that his friend whom he loved was at this point only "sick", what did Jesus do? He didn't rush to his good friend who he loves sickbed, did he?  No, what he did instead was to "tarry another for two days days". After saying Lazarus wouldn't "die". Indeed he loved him so much that after hearing the sad news about his friend he took another two days holiday dipping his feet in the cool waters of the Jordan.

>>>  "This sickness will not end in death".

So  if we are to take this story as an actual literal event, then Jesus, son of god, miracle worker and general know-it - all, who is also believed by some to be god, got it totally wrong didn't he, Wylted?

Unless of course, it is as I have explained: that is was a ritualistic "raising" from the dead. And the disciples wished to "die" with him so they might be "raised" too.

Just so we are clear, I have no reason not to believe that Jesus exist.

I am just looking for the intent of the story. Is it intended to be literal or not and if it is supposed to be figurative wouldn't it have more colorful tone? If they say he got it wrong  either they are bad writers or they are honest writers and just aren't realizing this disqualifies Jesus as being omniscient.

I am just asking you why it doesn't just come out and say it is a ritualistic raising from the dead. Most people when they read stories are going to take them literally unless there is a reason not to, so I am wondering why it wouldn't be the case here. I don't doubt we can pull some sort of allegory from the story. I think the most common theistic interpretation of these events is that they actually happened so we could pull an allegory out of them. although the take from this one by most people is that it is merely Jesus trying to show off his magical powers to prove he is God.

The biggest takeaway I would like you to help me here with is, maybe answering why an allegory wouldn't be more clearly an allegory or stated to be such?

I have personally dabbled in the occult through gnosticism, mysticism and satanism. I have no issues pulling allegories out of things. Most of the things I have read with that intention have pretty clearly had that intention and was up front about it. I am just wondering why the gospels would be uniquely different or I guess maybe in the world view of a mythicist, why wouldn't the Pauline texts and John be more clear about being allegories?