Office Mafia Endgame

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11.15.2019 05:13PM

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@Vader

No case max would have made would have convinced me that his role suddenly changed from when he originally claimed it. Max got fvcked by bastard modding. We would have lost anyway if he was hated but now it gives you a "soap box" to preach from. Lmao

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11.15.2019 05:16PM

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@Vader

Thou dost protest too much. Yes, he made mistakes, but I doubt anyone else would have done much better. Even if he'd waited for max to speak, it probably would have made little difference. Max knew 6 (real) days earlier that he wasn't hated at LYLO and failed to tell anyone. At LYLO, it would have just looked like a cheap mafia trick. Also, there wasn't a lot of evidence against Speed, so it would have been difficult for Lunatic to guess it was him.

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@Lunatic

Then that is a mod problem. Doesn’t give an excuse to lynch on LYLO within the first ten. Doesn’t matter unless last person is tracker and saw him visit. No excuse

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11.15.2019 05:18PM

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@SirAnonymous

I’m not debating him for his choice is the issue, I called him out for his rushing to LYLO

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@Vader

Max knew 6 (real) days earlier that he wasn't hated at LYLO and failed to tell anyone. At LYLO, it would have just looked like a cheap mafia trick.

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11.15.2019 05:19PM

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@Vader

Under maxs claim, he was confirmed scum. Literally no point in waiting. I would dismiss any case from him as Wifom. Roles dont change mid game.

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11.15.2019 05:20PM

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@Vader

You're right that he shouldn't have rushed. However, that was one mistake in one round that made little difference since Max had no good way to defend himself.

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11.15.2019 05:21PM

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@SirAnonymous

After DP3, Lunatic was very pro-town. Yes, he was wrong in his lynches, but it would have been very hard for him to catch Speed the way Speed was playing.

Lunatic was the most anti-town element in the entire game, including the Mafia. His reasons were shoddy, his argumentation methods deceptive and polarizing, and his reads and lynches worthless.

I find it very surprising that anyone could nominate him MVP given this performance this game. You call him a "tragic hero" but all I see is "tragic." His reads weren't logical and scum hunting really only has value if you can actually do it well, which he showed he cannot. His "plan" wasn't brilliant. Granting him the benefit of the doubt regarding airmax being hated at LYLO, his plan only had value if airmax was, in fact, scum. If anyone else was scum then it was autolose for Town.

In which case, if the only way Town wins is if airmax is scum, then it would have simply been better to lynch him right then and there, mooting the entire plan.

It was less a "plan" than a realization of inevitable doom.

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11.15.2019 05:24PM

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@Lunatic

I'm totally not faulting your gameplay. I think in this particular setup with a sheeping town, we were going to spin our wheels with your analysis. I really didn't want to lynch you as scum, only as poe to help town.

I actually thought your gameplay was outstanding, it's just Speed's gameplay coupled with a sheeping town was kryptonite to your superman.

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11.15.2019 05:29PM

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@Lunatic

Also, you should know that Me being harsh in-game on you was nothing personal about you or your gameplay. It was only desperation to break the sheeps up, Airmax being the ONLY person to entertain the notion of a POE vote.

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11.15.2019 05:38PM

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@drafterman

Lunatic was the most anti-town element in the entire game, including the Mafia. His reasons were shoddy, his argumentation methods deceptive and polarizing, and his reads and lynches worthless.

I find it very surprising that anyone could nominate him MVP given this performance this game. You call him a "tragic hero" but all I see is "tragic." His reads weren't logical and scum hunting really only has value if you can actually do it well, which he showed he cannot.

You are literally accusing Lunatic of having incorrect reads when you yourself admitted that you never suspected Speed and had incorrect reads. It wasn't Lunatic's fault that he didn't catch Speed. It was that Speed didn't slip. Also, his read against you in DP3 was pretty logical. You were clearly tunneling, which is anti-town. You assumed that you had 100% certainty, or at least close to it. The only players that can get away with that are GP because he doesn't put much effort into it and Wylted, because he's Wylted.

His "plan" wasn't brilliant. Granting him the benefit of the doubt regarding airmax being hated at LYLO, his plan only had value if airmax was, in fact, scum.

Not so. If anyone else was scum, they'd already won anyway (at least based off the fact that town didn't know about airmax's non-hatedness at LYLO). The VTNL was a mistake, but the plan wasn't.

In which case, if the only way Town wins is if airmax is scum, then it would have simply been better to lynch him right then and there, mooting the entire plan.

That would also work only if airmax was scum and would not be an improvement.

It was less a "plan" than a realization of inevitable doom.

That's just it. Given the info that town had, doom was inevitable unless airmax was scum. They didn't have enough evidence to lynch anyone. By that point, they really had no path to victory.

I find it very surprising that anyone could nominate him MVP given this performance this game. You call him a "tragic hero" but all I see is "tragic."

The whole game was tragic. The tunneling that you, Wylted, and GP did in DP3 completely threw town offtrack. You made yourself look scummy in that toxic dogfight (granted, so did Lunatic and Wylted) and got lynched. Yes, Lunatic made some mistakes. The reason I nominated him for MVP was because everyone else played even worse, and the only players who played better (PressF and ILikePie) didn't make any positive impact for town. There is a good case to be made that PressF was MVP even though he ultimately failed, since he at least made fewer mistakes. But other than him and ILikePie5, who died in the first round, Lunatic was the only real candidate.

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11.15.2019 05:40PM

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@Greyparrot

It was only desperation to break the sheeps up

If you want to do that, don't autovote and then ignore the rest of the DP. Make a case that you're right.

#73

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I think I'll change my MVP to PressF.

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11.15.2019 05:46PM

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@SirAnonymous

You are literally accusing Lunatic of having incorrect reads when you yourself admitted that you never suspected Speed and had incorrect reads.

I lead 1 potential mislynch.

Lunatic led 1 potential mislynch and 5 actual mislynches. There is no comparison.

It wasn't Lunatic's fault that he didn't catch Speed. It was that Speed didn't slip. Also, his read against you in DP3 was pretty logical. You were clearly tunneling, which is anti-town.

No it isn't. Tunneling is only as good or as bad as the initial read or logic. Tunneling itself is neutral.

You assumed that you had 100% certainty, or at least close to it.

And? Being wishy washy doesn't get anyone lynched. Being certain does.

That's just it. Given the info that town had, doom was inevitable unless airmax was scum. They didn't have enough evidence to lynch anyone. By that point, they really had no path to victory.

Then what is so brilliant about that plan that did absolutely nothing to help town improve its odds?

The whole game was tragic. The tunneling that you, Wylted, and GP did in DP3 completely threw town offtrack.

The only people willing to listen to reason were Wylted and GP.

You made yourself look scummy in that toxic dogfight (granted, so did Lunatic and Wylted) and got lynched.

I'll admit my contribution and it would have probably been better to just ignore Lunatic's analysis for the drivel it was, but that doesn't make him MVP, nor does it make me (or anyone else) worse than him.

Yes, Lunatic made some mistakes. The reason I nominated him for MVP was because everyone else played even worse, and the only players who played better (PressF and ILikePie) didn't make any positive impact for town. There is a good case to be made that PressF was MVP even though he ultimately failed, since he at least made fewer mistakes. But other than him and ILikePie5, who died in the first round, Lunatic was the only real candidate.

So everyone else played worse, except for the people that didn't. Okay. Neither Press nor Pie pushed for 5 myslynches in a row. And I think you are completely ignoring DP1.

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11.15.2019 05:48PM

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@drafterman

I'm not claiming to be the best player by any means, but you need to take some self responsibility here. I was hoping to have been night killed, but the early tunneling you started on me countered that. I was suspected from dp3 and you made it a you vs me scenario and were unwilling to look anywhere else and multiple people steeped you for 3 day phases following. I would have loved to be in your position and have been lynched dp3 so I can have the privilege of talking shit from the peanut gallery but you were the one lucky enough to be afforded that position.

At the end of the day town was extremely lazy. We found that out day 1. I gave up talking to brick walls after dp4.

#76

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@Greyparrot

@drafterman

The sheeps won this game for you, not me or Luna.

You have to give credit to Speed for reading the room though. He played the hand he was dealt, it's not like he had the greatest support behind him either. (This is not a diss on Supa and SirAnnon but clearly mistakes were made which put Speed at an early disadvantage.)

Oh, awesome. Glad to have you on board. Good luck with exams.

Thanks.

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11.15.2019 05:55PM

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@Speedrace

Ive been so busy defending my actions from these assholes that I havent properly complimented your victory.

Gg, you played well and deserved the win. You played very townie imo and chose night kills well.

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11.15.2019 05:56PM

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@frenzy

My first post was congratulating Speed. He did exceptionally well.

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11.15.2019 05:57PM

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@Lunatic

Thanks dude, I think you played well as well

If I hadn't role copped Air earlier, I probably would've went in and hammered him instantly, and then lost lol, it was really chance at that point

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11.15.2019 05:58PM

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@Lunatic

Whatever, I personally don't care, but if I was in your position, I would have waited

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@drafterman

My first post was congratulating Speed. He did exceptionally well.

I know, the first part of my post for Grey only.

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@drafterman

Lol that first part was for Grey

#83

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11.15.2019 05:59PM

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My bad

#84

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@Lunatic

I am not gonna argue. You are a better player than me and am not afraid to admit that, but I would have played situation differently and that is just my belief

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@Lunatic

You weren't wrong for voting Air by the way, there was no logical reason to do anything different than what you did

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11.15.2019 06:21PM

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@Speedrace

The only thing that would have saved me from voting him was if he claimed that role mechanic the very first day phase he claimed. I can buy a role with different than normal mechanics but I don't buy a role that changes in the middle of the game lol. You won the previous day phase in my opinion, when we vtnl'ed. There was no way max was gonna spin a lynch on you dp6 at mylo. If there was gonna be a lynch it would have been most likely me lol

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11.15.2019 11:10PM

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@drafterman

I lead 1 potential mislynch. Lunatic led 1 potential mislynch and 5 actual mislynches. There is no comparison.

Lunatic lasted 4 DPs longer. When you died, he only had a potential mislynch and one mislynch. Yes, there is a comparison.

No it isn't. Tunneling is only as good or as bad as the initial read or logic. Tunneling itself is neutral.

Tunneling isn't neutral. Players need to consider more than one possibility.

And? Being wishy washy doesn't get anyone lynched. Being certain does.

Because it's impossible to be certain. If you'd had your way, Lunatic would have been mislynched. You were certain he was scum, even though he was town. Also, being wishy-washy is not the only alternative to certainty.

Then what is so brilliant about that plan that did absolutely nothing to help town improve its odds?

I concede that it wasn't brilliant, but it was still helpful. Had the known info been correct, it would have increased town's odds simply because no one else bothered to think about what Max being hated could mean.

The only people willing to listen to reason were Wylted and GP.

Drafter, you were wrong. You were 100 percent certain, but you were wrong. So were they. After they listened to you, they closed their ears to any other possibility. Tunneling is not listening to reason.

I'll admit my contribution and it would have probably been better to just ignore Lunatic's analysis for the drivel it was, but that doesn't make him MVP, nor does it make me (or anyone else) worse than him.

So everyone else played worse, except for the people that didn't. Okay. Neither Press nor Pie pushed for 5 myslynches in a row. And I think you are completely ignoring DP1.

You missed my post in which I changed my my MVP to PressF. Also, what am I ignoring about DP1? I still think Lunatic did well after DP3. At least he didn't give up trying like many of the others did. When the going got tough, the TUF got going.

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@SirAnonymous

I lead 1 potential mislynch. Lunatic led 1 potential mislynch and 5 actual mislynches. There is no comparison.
Lunatic lasted 4 DPs longer. When you died, he only had a potential mislynch and one mislynch. Yes, there is a comparison.

Okay, if you want to compare while we were both alive, my record is better than his.

No it isn't. Tunneling is only as good or as bad as the initial read or logic. Tunneling itself is neutral.
Tunneling isn't neutral. Players need to consider more than one possibility.

There is no benefit to considering more than one person at a time if you already have scum.

And? Being wishy washy doesn't get anyone lynched. Being certain does.
Because it's impossible to be certain. If you'd had your way, Lunatic would have been mislynched. You were certain he was scum, even though he was town. Also, being wishy-washy is not the only alternative to certainty.

Yeah, Lunatic would have been mislynched and Town would have been better off for it.

Then what is so brilliant about that plan that did absolutely nothing to help town improve its odds?
I concede that it wasn't brilliant, but it was still helpful. Had the known info been correct, it would have increased town's odds simply because no one else bothered to think about what Max being hated could mean.

How so?

The only people willing to listen to reason were Wylted and GP.
Drafted, you were wrong. You were 100 percent certain, but you were wrong. So were they. After they listened to you, they closed their ears to any other possibility. Tunneling is not listening to reason.

Who's "they"? Most of town sheeped Lunatic all the way to a loss. And tunneling isn't ignoring reason, it's focusing on someone to get them lynched.

I'll admit my contribution and it would have probably been better to just ignore Lunatic's analysis for the drivel it was, but that doesn't make him MVP, nor does it make me (or anyone else) worse than him.

So everyone else played worse, except for the people that didn't. Okay. Neither Press nor Pie pushed for 5 myslynches in a row. And I think you are completely ignoring DP1.
You missed my post in which I changed my my MVP to PressF. Also, what am I ignoring about DP1? I still think Lunatic did well after DP3. At least he didn't give up trying like many of the others did. When the going got tough, the TUF got going.

You can't mislynch 4 times in a row and call it "doing well."

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11.15.2019 11:53PM

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@drafterman

Okay, if you want to compare while we were both alive, my record is better than his.

I don't dispute that, but it wasn't as bad as you were making it out to be.

There is no benefit to considering more than one person at a time if you already have scum.

Except that you didn't have scum. DP3 was a perfect example of why tunneling doesn't work. You focused entirely on one person, you were 100% certain, and you were wrong. Even when you think you're right, you still need to consider other possibilities in the event that you're wrong.

Yeah, Lunatic would have been mislynched and Town would have been better off for it.

I highly doubt it. It just would have been even more pathetically inactive.

How so?

If the known info was accurate, then Lunatic's DP7 actions would have won the game. Airmax would have been scum, and Lunatic would have caught him.

Who's "they"?
GP and Wylted.
Most of town sheeped Lunatic all the way to a loss.

That's poor play on the part of the rest of town, not Lunatic's. You can't blame the shepherd for the sheep's decision to follow him.

And tunneling isn't ignoring reason, it's focusing on someone to get them lynched.

Actually, it's confirmation bias.

"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them." https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Confirmation_Bias

Also, I think you misunderstood my statement. I didn't mean "Tunneling = Not Listening to Reason." I meant "Tunneling =/= Listening to Reason."

You can't mislynch 4 times in a row and call it "doing well."

What evidence was there that Speed was scum? No, the results weren't "doing well," but that isn't a reflection on how Lunatic was playing. He lacked the necessary information to conclude that Speed was scum. You can't blame him for getting bad results when he had next to nothing to go on. The only person who found any evidence against Speed was ILikePie5 in DP1, and everyone had either forgotten or not paid attention in the first place.

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