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@Barney
Anyway, flip flopping so much it must be driving Speed insane...
Just a little lol
Arrowverse Mafia - DP1
Posts
Read-only
Total:
646
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@MisterChris
At no point have I argued for ending the DP "early." Early implies ending the Day Phase sooner than it should be ended. This is Lunatic's deliberate misrepresentation of my position which is now stuck in your head with his repeated use of loaded terms like "rushing."
I disagree with the fundamental proposition that the Day Phase should last as long as the time allotted. So I'm not arguing that the Day Phase should end "early", I argue that the Day Phase simply doesn't need to last as long as the time given to us. That it's natural conclusion can significantly less than the time allotted. This isn't the DP ending "early" this is the DP ending "exactly when it should."
While I understand the lack of desire to wade through the argument between me and Lunatic, allow me to present an accurate representation of my position and behavior this Day Phase:
I call suspicion into skittlez claim
Off-Topic/Jokes
Using skittlez wagon to evaluate other's behavior
Suspicion on Intelligence (also the whole Lover thing)
Rebutting claims that hammering someone makes them scum (or is otherwise a bad thing)
Polling people about who they would be willing to lynch
Evaluating whether it is better to lynch than no lynch
Encouraging people to lynch
Generic Game Analysis
All of the above gets us to post #304. Note at this point I'm simply encouraging people to find someone to lynch at all and to get people into the mindset of actually lynching someone. No mention of time frames. That begins here:
With SirAnon's response to oro. To which I responded:
To repeat, nothing I've said up to this point implies a rushed or quick as possible Day Phase. My primary issue with Sir (and later Lunatic's) stance is that the only reason they've presented for not lynching is that there exists more time. That the very existence of more time in the Day Phase implies that taking any action to end it is "rushing."
I disagree with this implication. The Day Phase should take exactly as long as is needed to decide on a lynch, then the lynch should be carried out, regardless of how much time is left on the clock. This is my primary and fundamental issue.
If you can't decide on a lynch yet. Fine. But Sir didn't say that. In fact, Sir explicitly agreed with lynching someone. The only objection to lynching provided at that point was: the day phase still has time left. And this is what I disagree with. The mere fact that the Day Phase has time left should not be reason alone to refrain from pushing a lynch on someone. If you have a different reason for not wanting to lynch someone or act, fair, but the reason should be more than just "there's time."
So let's continue on with the analysis:
More Off-Topic/Jokes
Justifying a lynch on skittlez
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4823/post-links/203197 (note, Chris, this is the response to your analysis you specifically requested)
Vote Counts
Arguing against NLing specifically
Super scummy opportunistic bandwagoning
Meta-argument with Lunatic
Pushing for Activity
Calling out Lunatic for suspicious behavior
So, only about a quarter of my substantive posts (minus jokes and vote counts and stuff) were my argument with Lunatic, so it would be a disservice to the conversation if people walk way from this DP thinking that's what it was all about and a personal disservice to me if they characterize my position by Lunatic's incorrect comments about it.
Again, I do not suggest the DP must be rushed or performed as quickly as possible. The length of the DP is dictated by activity of which we have a lot. What i object to is refusing to act for no other reason than the fact that there is time left. People should have a better reason than that. Waiting for the sake of waiting is a waste of time.
Now that I've addressed the "5 pages arguing for ending it early" let's address the Lunatic giving in part.
Lunatic, in no certain terms, said that he is explicitly suggesting the Day Phase time out rather than actively Vote to No Lynch:
Like why have a VTNL option at all? Just let the day phase time out. Lynch or get off the pot.I mean, this is basically what I am suggesting. Not actually VTNL'ing.
Less than 5 hours later he "gives in"? Gives in to what? The argument had long been over since then, so it's not like I wore him down.
When someone takes a complete 180 without any reason, that is something of a red flag.
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@drafterman
I think you're getting a bit defensive there. Chris questioned your read on Lunatic, and you spent most of your post defending yourself.
My primary issue with Sir (and later Lunatic's) stance is that the only reason they've presented for not lynching is that there exists more time....If you can't decide on a lynch yet. Fine. But Sir didn't say that. In fact, Sir explicitly agreed with lynching someone. The only objection to lynching provided at that point was: the day phase still has time left.
Incorrect. My stance was never that we shouldn't lynch because there is more time. My stance was that I didn't scum read anyone so I couldn't decide on who to lynch.
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@SirAnonymous
I didn't see any mention of that in the specific post I was replying to.
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@drafterman
At no point have I argued for ending the DP "early." Early implies ending the Day Phase sooner than it should be ended. This is Lunatic's deliberate misrepresentation of my position which is now stuck in your head with his repeated use of loaded terms like "rushing."I disagree with the fundamental proposition that the Day Phase should last as long as the time allotted. So I'm not arguing that the Day Phase should end "early", I argue that the Day Phase simply doesn't need to last as long as the time given to us. That it's natural conclusion can significantly less than the time allotted. This isn't the DP ending "early" this is the DP ending "exactly when it should."
Your interpretation of what "Early" means in my post is completely wrong.
2a: before the usual or expected timeex: the train arrived early
We have an allotted time for the day phase. Ending it before then ends it "early."
That doesn't mean it is a good or bad move. That depends solely on the context. I even said I AGREE with you in this context.
What I DON'T agree with is your read on Lunatic.
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@drafterman
Read it in context.
oro said: I don't mind lynching but none of the three claims seem like viable targets for the reasons I've given. We need someone else to target for some reason not yet offered.I agree with this. Regardless, there are two days left in the DP. No need to rush to a decision.
My objection to lynching at that moment was not based on time, but rather on that I agreed with oro that the three claimed players weren't good targets. When I said that we didn't need to rush to a decision, I wasn't making an objection to lynching. I was simply stating the obvious fact that we had more time to find someone who was a good target.
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@MisterChris
Your interpretation of what "Early" means in my post is completely wrong.2a: before the usual or expected timeex: the train arrived early
I disagree that the "usual" or "expected time" for the Day Phase to end is the time limit posted by the mod. So I do not agree that ending before that time is "early." Therefore it is not my position that the Day Phase should "end early."
What I DON'T agree with is your read on Lunatic.
Given that I have vehemently opposed NLing, if I hammered the VTNL right now, how would that affect your read of me?
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@SirAnonymous
Okay, fair enough, I won't quibble on the details. If you need more time to decide, you need more time to decide.
Quick question: As of the time of the posting of this post right here, how much time do you think you have available to decide?
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@drafterman
Given that I have vehemently opposed NLing, if I hammered the VTNL right now, how would that affect your read of me?
If you hammered VTNL, I would want to hear your explanation before it affected my read.
But yeah, I see what you're going for here. We will have to wait and see Lunatic's explanation for wanting to VTNL now. My guess is he just gave into the popular demand and decided we might as well make the best decision possible given the time we've had.
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@drafterman
Quick question: As of the time of the posting of this post right here, how much time do you think you have available to decide?
25 hours and 5 minutes, although I'm hoping to reach a decision before then.
Oh wait, VTNL is at 4/5? Probably less time, then.
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@Lunatic
Please give input whenever you're available
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@SirAnonymous
25 hours and 5 minutes, although I'm hoping to reach a decision before then.
Wrong. The Day Phase ends in that time, meaning the Day Phase will be over and you won't have an opportunity to make any decision.
Ok, that's a pedantic slicing.
But not really.
Take a look at the 2nd DP of BAMF Mafia, specifically starting here:
Those are caught-red-handed, smoking-gun results. You hardly ever see those in a Mafia game. Not only was the watcher on the kill target, catching the only person to have visited the kill target, but Speed was also caught lying about his claim. Double whammy. You can't get any better than that.
It took 19 hours to lynch Speed from that point.
19 hours with conclusive results, a lie, and less people than we have now. If there is a more ideal scenario for catching and lynching scum, I'd love to see it.
Taking that as a Best Case Scenario, you don't have 25 hours, you have 6. Assuming you started a wagon from scratch with an orgy of evidence and needing only 4 votes.
But we quite clearly don't have a Best Case Scenario. We have no results. We have no major slips. And we need 5 votes, not 4. With 4 votes in 19 hours, that's an average of about 5 hours per vote, so for 5 votes (including your own), you're going to need about 24-25 hours.
So, with ideal results and needing 5 votes, you have 1 hour to decide.
But you don't have ideal results. So the time to decide, effectively, is past. There is really no opportunity to start a new wagon meaning the only available options are the existing wagons: skittlez and VTNL.
So if you disagree with a skittlze lynch, you've essentially already decided.
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@drafterman
That's not strictly true. Bullish was able to start, push, and achieve my lynch in DP1 of the MCU Civil War game in less than 24 hours, although it ultimately didn't go through thanks to inaccurate vote counts along the way. I do see your point, however. Time is running out, so if I want a lynch I need to start soon. But I just don't have the time to do that right now.
VTNL CHANT:
VTNL
VTNL
VTNL
VTNL!
VTNL!
VTNL!
VTNL!!!1
VTNL!!!11111
VTNL!111!!!11
22nd page yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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@Intelligence_06
You going to do something?
Like explain why you thought it would be a good idea to out what you thought was a double voter?
Or vote on a wagon?
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@drafterman
For the record, if we're gonna lynch on the basis of activity/uselessness I'd say Intel is a better option than Skittlez.
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@MisterChris
Agreed, if we were lynching on those reasons. But I don't think there is enough time to start a brand new wagon.
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@drafterman
We will see. But I could be convinced to vote Intel this day phase
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@MisterChris
You're not bothered by the lover claim?
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@drafterman
oh LOL. I totally forgot Intel was lover with Supa *facepalm*
Yeah you're right. On second thought we shouldn't.
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@Lunatic
Defense of him, and if a team either of you are smart enough to suggest the gambit to him.It seems a bit of a stretch to want to lynch someone on the suspicion that someone else is blatantly buddying him lol. Also kind of makes defending him redudant if my efforts to do so just result in him getting lynched anyway
It's mostly futile day1 spitballing.
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@MisterChris
oh LOL. I totally forgot Intel was lover with Supa *facepalm*Yeah you're right. On second thought we shouldn't.
I just went through the same thought process. Intel has been so inactive that I forgot he was playing.
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@SirAnonymous
Ffs. I REALLY wish he weren't lover so we could lynch him.
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@MisterChris
Yeah, but he is, so we'll have to put up with it.
I don't think this is going anywhere, shall I just hammer the VNTL?
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@MisterChris
VTNL CHANT:VTNLVTNLVTNLVTNL!VTNL!VTNL!VTNL!!!1VTNL!!!11111VTNL!111!!!11
ants
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@Barney
I don't think this is going anywhere, shall I just hammer the VNTL?
yes pls.
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@oromagi
VTNL ants chant?
VTNL ants
VTNL ants
VTNL ants
VTNL ants !
VTNL ants !
VTNL ants !