The problem I have with Jesus

Author: PREZ-HILTON

Posts

Total: 200
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
I can get on board with believing in Jesus, with thinking he was raised from the dead. 

Why would I want to be forgiven?

1. It's fucked up that he would be sacrificed for my sins. The guy was perfect, he doesn't deserve that. Literally slaughtering an innocent person. I don't want that on my conscience and so I must reject forgiveness.

2. Why would I want forgiveness? Why would I want to get away with stuff? I would much prefer to pay for my sins. I rather just take some sort of punishment than allowing some filthy Jew to die for me, particularly one who is not only innocent but the most innocent a person ever has been.

What is with some people's urge to receive forgiveness rather than actually pay for their crimes? 

I have done wrong things. I deserve the consequences of those things and in fact so do you.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,480
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Well, there is a strong chance that there was an actual Jesus type bloke.

Though probably not named Jesus in the first instance.


As for the sin thing.

Well, doesn't make a lot of sense.

Not sure that it ever did.

Makes no sense really.


And now it's 2023, and all about Buns and Choccy Eggs.

Sort of a pagan revival.

Putting a positive spin back on sex and fertility, rather than the old repressed negative sin stuff.

PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@zedvictor4
Though probably not named Jesus in the first instance
Yeah obviously not. Names often get shifted to be more palatable to different regions. It kind of a dumb thing to bicker about the name to be honest.

As for the sin thing.Well, doesn't make a lot of sense.Not sure that it ever did. Makes no sense really.
I agree to some extent, but also part of me thinks you don't understand that a just God would take justice seriously and need some sort of payment for sin. A typical custom in many cultures. Many sacrifices animals others sometimes sacrificed virgins etc. 

I think it is fucked up that a completely innocent person should suffer on my account but it certainly makes sense in the philosophy usually presented about it.

And now it's 2023, and all about Buns and Choccy Eggs.
Well eggs and chocolate make more money that way. It sucks but whatcha gonna do?
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 277
Posts: 8,141
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Yes. The forgiveness is offered. It is not mandatory to accept it.

Yes. This evil world doesnt deserve forgiveness by their own logical standards.

God sends gifts to the evil people in an attempt to correct them and make them better. God wants for people to be good or at least make them better than they are.

Matthew 5:44
"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:45
"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Forgiveness is divine. It is above the logic of this world. Its fruit is peace of the mind.
Because truly, you can either forgive a person either feel bad about what they have done. Why would someone choose to feel bad? Isnt it better to feel good?
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Best.Korea
Because truly, you can either forgive a person either feel bad about what they have done. Why would someone choose to feel bad? Isnt it better to feel good?
I am talking about self forgiveness. 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,480
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Hey, you're becoming more of a realist. (Whatever that might mean)

Though I would suggest that the development of the name, probably tells us something about the development of the global story and it's association with social ideology, wealth and power.


A Just GOD.

Says who?

Some Latin geezer I suppose.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,374
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@PREZ-HILTON



I asked the similar question/s two years ago

Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Forgive Our Sins?

I didn't ask him to and I  am responsible for my own actions.  If I am not responsible for my own actions then god is, if the belief in my actions are all part of gods great plan.


I also created a thread Titled:  I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me.


And the idea  that I would ask or want  anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me.  Neither my brother nor Jesus is my keeper. And I will suffer and       `bare my own cross, '   as it is I  that  am responsible for my own actions.  



Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
I think the idea is, if you accept Jesus as your saviour then your sins are forgiven and you don’t have to suffer an afterlife of eternal torture.

I am not sure why he had to die though. The dying god who is reborn was originally a pagan concept.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,374
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
I think the idea is, if you accept Jesus as your saviour then your sins are forgiven and you don’t have to suffer an afterlife of eternal torture.

What about taking responsibility for your own deeds?
The idea that someone else-  a stranger and some one I never knew or met-  should take it upon himself to be tortured,  suffer and die for things I may or may not have done, I find sickeningly abhorrent.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 277
Posts: 8,141
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
I am talking about self forgiveness.
The only person I cant forgive is me. My sins are my sins. I can forget some of them through prayer. I can punish myself for it by feeling bad. However, since my sins are against God, only God can forgive them. Asking for forgiveness is, in my view, better than asking to be punished. In both cases you are admitting your sin, of course, and you try to be better. However, asking for forgiveness is prescribed by the Bible.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Stephen
Sounds like we have similar feelings there. I will read through your threads to see if you got any intelligent responses.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Elliott
@Best.Korea
I am not sure why he had to die though. The dying god who is reborn was originally a pagan concept.
Animal sacrifices were a big theme so a sacrifice of a perfect human to end all sacrifices seems like a natural progression
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
What about taking responsibility for your own deeds?
I agree and the main responsibility is to avoid wrong doing in the first place.

The idea that someone else-  a stranger and some one I never knew or met-  should take it upon himself to be tortured,  suffer and die for things I may or may not have done, I find sickeningly abhorrent.
He was resurrected so not much of a sacrifice.

I find the concept of eternal damnation far more sickeningly abhorrent.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 277
Posts: 8,141
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Elliott
I am not sure why he had to die though.
The answer is in the Bible. Jesus willingly died to make the world a better place.

He could have called an army of angels and save himself. He chose not to. He willingly died so that people after that could willingly accept the good.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,374
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
 I will read through your threads to see if you got any intelligent responses.

Such as this?

 Stephen wrote: Doesn't it bother you at all?  That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has  died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?
ethang5 wrote: Not at all. I didn't ask Him to. He volunteered.



Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Animal sacrifices were a big theme so a sacrifice of a perfect human to end all sacrifices seems like a natural progression
I was thinking of human but if one considers Jesus to be perfect then I suppose he would make the perfect sacrifice.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Elliott
I was thinking of human but if one considers Jesus to be perfect then I suppose he would make the perfect sacrifice.
That's the premise yes. The perfect human otherwise the sacrifice would have been for his own sins, seeing how "the wages of sin is death". 
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Stephen
I stopped reading at ethang
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Best.Korea
The answer is in the Bible. Jesus willingly died to make the world a better place.
Doesn’t explain why his death would make the world a better place.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Stephen
The fact ethang doesn't feel bad that an innocent person was tortured and sacrificed for his sins is disgusting. Anyone Christian that watched the passion of the Christ without feeling any guilt is likely a sociopath.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,374
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
The idea that someone else-  a stranger and some one I never knew or met-  should take it upon himself to be tortured,  suffer and die for things I may or may not have done, I find sickeningly abhorrent.
He was resurrected so not much of a sacrifice.
 I agree. I am of the belief that Jesus was crucified for crimes against Rome: Les Majesty and sedition. I also believe he survived the crucifixion too.


I find the concept of eternal damnation far more sickeningly abhorrent.


What, far more sickening and  abhorrent. that being tortured,  being beaten senseless, crucified and speared!?

PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Elliott
Doesn’t explain why his death would make the world a better place.
It wouldn't. It would just make the afterlife a better place
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 277
Posts: 8,141
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Elliott
Doesn’t explain why his death would make the world a better place.
After his death, the number of Christians (good people) rose greatly.
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
That's the premise yes. The perfect human otherwise the sacrifice would have been for his own sins, seeing how "the wages of sin is death". 
I have no problem with the wages of sin being death, it’s theconcept of eternal damnation I find horrible.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Elliott
I have no problem with the wages of sin being death, it’s theconcept of eternal damnation I find horrible.
I think a lot of people will disagree but eternal damnation isn't biblical. It is mentioned in revelation that the beast gets thrown into some sort of eternal fire but he actually ends up escaping after 1000 years so even that I don't think is eternal but the fire and brimstone stuff was made up by wild southern Baptist preachers looking to put on a show and get butts in seats. They knew them what newspapers know now. Fear sells
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Best.Korea
After his death, the number of Christians (good people) rose greatly.
Most people come to Jesus during the worst times of their life. Wouldn't it be easier just to make more Hitler's or something. 
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
What, far more sickening and  abhorrent. that being tortured,  being beaten senseless, crucified and speared!?
Yes, never ending torture without redemption is far worse.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 277
Posts: 8,141
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
I think we had enough of Hitlers in history.
In fact, one "Hitler" wanted to kill Jesus while Jesus was a baby, but his plans were spoiled.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,374
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott

I find the concept of eternal damnation far more sickeningly abhorrent.


What, far more sickening and  abhorrent. that being tortured,  being beaten senseless, crucified and speared!?


Yes, never ending torture without redemption is far worse.


"Eternal damnation" is only an idea. We are talking here of the torturous death of a man sentence to death in what must be the biggest  miscarriage of justice in all of Christendom. If the bible is to be believed.
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
"Eternal damnation" is only an idea. We are talking here of the torturous death of a man sentence to death in what must be the biggest  miscarriage of justice in all of Christendom. If the bible is to be believed.
I said "I find the concept of eternal damnation far more sickeningly abhorrent." that is the "concept" not a reality.