3RU7AL's avatar

3RU7AL

A member since

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Total posts: 14,582

Posted in:
Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
(IFF) you can stop child abuse and you DON'T stop child abuse (THEN) you are guilty of being a party to child abuse
well no, it is the result of mans actions and does not involve God
YOU, I'm talking about YOU.

Leave god out of this for a moment.
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Free Will
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@Sum1hugme
Knowing the consequences for certain is indistinguishable from intending those consequences.
Well stated.
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
3. Thus, evil exists, because of man's actions, rather than because of God.
(IFF) you can stop child abuse and you DON'T stop child abuse (THEN) you are guilty of being a party to child abuse
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
i am concerned
Why does PERFECT GOD allow this ?
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
it isnt horrifying, free will isnt freedom your talking about
I see.

Are you not even slightly concerned about the untold number of children that are molested on a daily basis ?
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you can't name one good reason not to get vaccinated
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@n8nrgmi
aside from not being fully FDA approved, there's no good reason not to get it. every credible scientist says it's safe for almost everyone. there's a chance of death if you dont get the shot, but there's almost no chance of death if you do get the shot. 

i expect a lot of non sense in this thread. probably a bunch of conspiracy theories. a whole lot of "consensus science isn't necessarily true even though i trust my own versions of authority". a lot of saying things without really saying anything. 
I already had the COVIDS.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR ME TO GET A "VACCINE" FOR SOMETHING I'VE ALREADY BEEN EXPOSED TO.
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3 Rules of Civil Debate
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@ethang5
Did you win your 2nd attempt here?
Of course not.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
  1. Those stumbling to slaughter others
  2. Those stumbling to be slaughtered

Which do you think is the best grammatical interpretation for that verse and why?
Proverbs 24:11 (CJB) Yes, rescue those being dragged off to death -won't you save those about to be killed? [**]
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Is suicide a sin?

Many people assume the Bible condemns taking one’s own life. However, even a careful reader will search in vain for any explicit prohibition of self-killing in the Bible. In fact, the biblical attitude toward suicide ranges from ambivalence to praise.

There are seven unambiguous examples of suicide in the Bible: Abimelech, mortally wounded by a millstone, ordered his armor-bearer to dispatch him to avoid the suggestion he had been slain by the woman who had thrown the stone (Judg 9:52-54); the prophet Ahithophel hanged himself after betraying David (2Sam 17:23); Zimri burned down his house around himself after military defeat (1Kgs 16:18); and the more familiar stories of Saul and his armor-bearer (1Sam 1:1-6; 1Chr 10:1-6), Samson, (Judg 16:28), and, of course, Jesus’ disciple Judas—although it is only in Matthew’s Gospel where he kills himself (Matt 27:3-5; compare with Acts 1:18).

There is nothing in any of these stories to suggest that the biblical narrators disapprove of the characters’ suicides.

Suicide in the ancient world did not carry the same negative connotations as it does today. For Greco-Roman philosophers, suicide in correct circumstances constituted a “noble death.” Socrates (469-399 B.C.E.) chose to drink hemlock rather than endure exile, a choice enthusiastically endorsed by most of the philosophical schools at the time. If carried out for country or friends, or in the face of intolerable pain, incurable disease, devastating misfortune or shame, or to avoid capture on the battlefield, suicide constituted a noble death. Each of the instances of suicide found in the Bible fits comfortably with noble-death ideals. Saul’s death, for example, finds a strikingly close parallel with that of the Greek general Publius, who, when similarly wounded on the battlefield ordered his armor-bearer to kill him (Plutarch, Crassus 25.11).

Two of the incidents of self-killing in the Bible exhibit a positive attitude toward suicide. Arguably, the author of the Gospel of Matthew intends the reader to interpret the disciple Judas’s hanging as an act of remorse. Judas repents (metamelētheis) and returns the blood money that he received for turning Jesus over to the authorities who executed him (Matt 27:3). Judas acknowledges that he has “sinned in betraying innocent blood” (Matt 27:4). His suicide may be interpreted as an act of atonement because he himself carries out the penalty laid down in the Hebrew Bible for taking a life: “no expiation can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of him who shed it” (Num 35:33; see also Lev 24:17). There is no hint of condemnation of Judas’s self-killing in Matthew.

If anything, it is a solution to his guilt rather than something that adds to it.

The Israelite leader Samson’s suicide is interpreted positively. [**]
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
  1. Those stumbling to slaughter others
  2. Those stumbling to be slaughtered

Which do you think is the best grammatical interpretation for that verse and why?
Both would apply to someone intending to join the military.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Who exactly do you have to "justify" or "excuse" your action to ?

  • God.
Ok, so why not let each individual answer for themselves ?

So, like, what if I prayed really really hard and god told me it was ok ?
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
I'm not sure the holy scriptures say you should kill people if they attack you.

I was checking and ran across this gem,

Consider also Proverbs 24:11, which indicates we have a duty to preserve the lives of those who are harming themselves:
Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

Which seems to suggest that we should forcibly detain anyone who is trying to join the military.

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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
The only exception I can see as possibly being justified would be if the unborn child puts the life of the mother in jeopardy. But those are the exception and must be approached individually based on the situation.
So, for example, if a woman gets severe and persistent blood-clots while pregnant and her doctor warns that she is at risk of having a stroke, would that be a situation that might qualify ?
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Why do you think different factions of christians have historically slaughtered each other ?

Is there one specific interpretation of the "ethics" outlined in the holy scriptures that is superior to any other ?
Yes, there is one correct interpretation of every biblical text. It is superior because it is correct, but it requires a consistent method of interpretation. Consistency is typically where people go wrong, and that error has led to disastrous results as you pointed out. But that shows a problem with the people not the text.
Oh good.

Which faction has the most correct interpretation ?
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Without having placed this definition under strict scrutiny, I would personally use this one as biblically accurate:
  • Killing a human being without justification or excuse.
If every life has inherent value, it is wrong for me to murder someone else. But it is also wrong for me to end my own life without justification or excuse. Discomfort, discontent, or poverty is not a justification to end someone else's life, nor my own.
Who exactly do you have to "justify" or "excuse" your action to ?

And what qualifies in your opinion as a proper "justification" or "excuse" ?

Would it be murder to kill someone who attacked you ?

Would it be murder to kill someone who broke into your house but didn't specifically attack you ?
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Government wants to control your life?
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@thett3
The mask mandate is a great example because while medical masks such as N95's in indoor settings are effective, clothe masks do little, if anything at all and wearing masks outside has been completely unnecessary throughout the entire situation outside of extreme situations like a packed outdoor concert or something. Yet, many blue areas implemented outdoor mask mandates  and as far as I know nobody ever mandated N95 or other medical masks instead of clothe masks. This is just as unscientific as proclaiming that masks as a concept are universally worthless, but many of the same people that "trust the science" dutifully line up to wear their masks outside on a bike ride. Just as the rights bias leads many to believe masks are worthless, the lefts bias leads many to way over emphasize the importance with things like outdoor mask mandates or mask mandates for vaccinated people. At the end of the day so much is poisoned by the culture war, virtue signaling, etc that people can hardly even think straight.
Well stated.
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Government wants to control your life?
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@Athias
It is impossible to generalize this impact.

Your mood and at least one of your primary motivation schemes (your model of sexual desire) are affected by your private habits.

Your mood and your model of sexual desire affect how you interact with others.
I don't deny this. I'm asking can the influence be identified and pinpointed to masturbation?
I'm going to need a specific example.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
(IFF) a competent adult wishes to painlessly opt-out (THEN) what moral theory would deny them this option ?
Simply put, suicide is murdering yourself.
I'm going to need you to make your personally preferred definition of "murder" explicit.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Per post #171, the Bible is my source of ethics. It is objective since it is outside myself. In a general sense, it functions similar to the U.S. Constitution.
Why do you think different factions of christians have historically slaughtered each other ?

Is there one specific interpretation of the "ethics" outlined in the holy scriptures that is superior to any other ?
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Of course, the "no just reason" part is where we deal with the extreme cases like rape or medical issues, but those are special cases.
Why do you think the circumstances leading to the conception of the child (and or any incidental "medical issues") would have any effect whatsoever on the proposed "moral" responsibility or the proposed implicit contract between the foetus and the womb ?
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Abortion and covid
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@bmdrocks21
Noun

a small garden ornament in the form of a bearded man with a pointed hat.
Let's call it a puppy.  A cute little puppy dog.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
I see what you mean. But I will have to disagree with you on that. 
(IFF) a competent adult wishes to painlessly opt-out (THEN) what moral theory would deny them this option ?
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
But I have a foundation for what I believe is right and wrong that is outside myself.
Please explain.
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Abortion and covid
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@zedvictor4
And I'm not desperate to save anyone.
Good to know.
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Free Will
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@EtrnlVw
The ability to control oneself is the nature of your will as a conscious being
Even iff you were a completely disembodied spiritghostangelgod, you would still be INFLUENCED and CONSTRAINED by your own EXPERIENCES, MEMORIES, AND DESIRES AND OR GOALS.
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Free Will
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@Double_R
I find the free will debate to be ultimately pointless. If we don't have free will, then whatever it is, is something no one has ever experienced before. Therefore not only do we lose nothing, but we don't even know what it is we are supposed to have lost.
Free-will is an E-MOTION.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Voluntary suicide should be an option.
For homeless people? Because they're poor?
For anyone and everyone who wants to get off this insane merry-go-round.

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Abortion and covid
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@Athias
or is it the zygote's/embryo's/fetus's physiological underdevelopment which renders it incapable of surviving outside of its mother's womb that causes its death?
EXOGENESIS FTW !!!
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Abortion and covid
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@Double_R
the core disagreement in this debate will always be the question of whether we think of a fetus as a CITIZEN or not.
You have to be a human being before you can be a citizen
Only CITIZENS have the full protection of the state.
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Abortion and covid
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@Athias
That means 99.633% of the un-vaccinated have survived after being exposed to this virus for almost two years.
Well stated.
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Abortion and covid
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@Double_R
and yet 99% of all COVID deaths are of the unvaccinated.
This "99%" includes ALL COVID related deaths, including those BEFORE the vaccines were made available.
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Abortion and covid
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@zedvictor4
Being unvaccinated does not necessarily mean you will certainly die.
You are significantly more likely to die from cancer and or heart-disease.

If you really want to "save human lives" ban refined sugar and red meat and lower all speed limits to below 55.
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Abortion and covid
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@bmdrocks21
Would you consider it "immoral" to "deport" the gnome ?
A gnome is an inanimate object. If an inanimate object is causing harm, then I don't care if you throw it out.

Since I only care about people, then assuming it could die, I wouldn't care because a gnome is non-human.
gnome
noun
(in folklore) one of a species of diminutive beings, usually described as shriveled little old men, that inhabit the interior of the earth and act as guardians of its treasures; troll.
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Government wants to control your life?
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@Athias
This is a misinterpretation of the Abrahamic religions. It's not a sin to masturbate; the sin stems from not obliging by one's duty to impregnate one's dead brother's spouse. It centers on the story Onan who did not want to impregnate his dead brother's widow and thereby wasted his seed.
Perhaps we could somehow communicate this to the pope.
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Government wants to control your life?
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@Athias
Let me rephrase: can the influence of one's masturbation and it's alleged impact on others be identifiable as a result of one's masturbation?
It is impossible to generalize this impact.

Your mood and at least one of your primary motivation schemes (your model of sexual desire) are affected by your private habits.

Your mood and your model of sexual desire affect how you interact with others.
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A New conspiracy theory
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@sadolite
“I Wasn’t Successful, No I did Not Win The Court Case” Patrick King on Press For Truth!
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
So you'd prefer to pay $40,000.00 per year per prisoner ?
No. Our current prison system is unbiblical, but that is a whole different conversation.

But I find your attitude toward children that might grow up in adversity concerning. Especially given your concern for homeless people. I imagine you wouldn't say to one of them, "It sucks that you're homeless. Too bad your parents didn't abort you." Should kids in third world countries be aborted?
Voluntary suicide should be an option.
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Free Will
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@EtrnlVw
Your "will" is a slave to your desires and instincts.
The physical body is a slave to everything it desires, craves or needs but consciousness as it exists independent of the physical body runs parallel to that fact. That's why you can resist such urges and stretch the body to its limits....albeit you can only resist for so long before the physical body can no longer sustain itself. But you can see for certain how consciousness is free of the limits of the physical body, there's many ways you can demonstrate this. Mind over matter has been displayed time and time again. The point here is to cast light on the reality and distinction between the physical body vs the soul (consciousness).
If there was no distinction you would have literally no ability to control oneself, constrain, restrain, discipline, wait, resist, abstain or be patient. All those factors show how your will is separate from any mechanical instincts.
Your "ability to control yourself" is a function of your ability to delay gratification for the promise of greater gratification (or the promise of "freedom" from desire) in the future.

This is learned behavior that has been imposed on you by your experiences.

AND,

Even if you were a completely disembodied spiritghostangelgod, you would still be INFLUENCED and CONSTRAINED by your own EXPERIENCES, MEMORIES, AND DESIRES AND OR GOALS.
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Free Will
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@zedvictor4
Consider the process Doc.

How random can random  be?

Ultimately a random choice is an internal choice, subject to internal data analysis.

More like a snap decision perhaps?
EVEN (IFF) A HUMAN COULD MAKE A "RANDOM" "SNAP" DECISION, THAT "RANDOM" "SNAP" DECISION COULD NOT BE CONTEXT SENSITIVE

in other words, there is absolutely no way for a "random" action or decision to be in any way even remotely useful to anyone anywhere at any time.
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
If there were values to control the freedom, then there would be no sexual undertones today. Take a look at vietnam. It bans pornography and cites the reason being " it is against the values of the Vietnamese people". THAT is what needs to be done, lets get rid of this whole "freedom" and "live and let live" attitude
FREEDOM = EVIL

Why did PERFECT GOD make such a horrifying planet ?
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
i am arguing that free will compatibilism EXISTS, it isnt inheritably good nor evil, its free will
Compatibilism is literally the belief that determinism is TRUE and at the same time, "free-will" is a pragmatic FICTION.
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
That is trying to fight the natural way you are born.
The time and place of your birth, along with your biological endowment, greatly constrain your conscious (and subconscious) desires, which dictate your "will".
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
are you saying that people can not make a random choice?
A "choice" is necessarily contextual (predictable, identifiable).

A "random" event is necessarily non-contextual (unpredictable, unidentifiable).
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Free Will
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@Dr.Franklin
How do you know that? It sure appears that way, but where does cause and effect end and the "will" begin?
i have literally no idea what on earth you are saying
Your "will" is a slave to your desires and instincts.
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Free Will
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@fauxlaw
Free will can be calculated in advance,
Your prefrontal cortex can only predict the future by absorbing data from the past (INFLUENCE).

Your prediction is not "free".

Your prediction is constrained by your data collection hardware (eyes and ears) and data storage hardware (memory) and your data processing hardware (prefrontal cortex) AND by the quality of data itself.

You did not properly "choose" any of these components.
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Free Will
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@Bones
But the fact of the matter is that you value the result so much you are willing to override the discomfort of waking up early with the results. 

Consider the following example. Not a lot of people like working out (the act of lifting weights), but almost everyone loves the result, that is, health and looks. However, as human beings, we are able to weigh and judge and action in it's entirety. This is further proven through the fact that people often take vaccinations despite the physical discomfort of doing so. The reason people get their jabs is because despite them not "wanting" the pain of the shot, they weigh the goods and find that doing so is a larger benefit, i.e something they want. 
Well stated.
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Free Will
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@Intelligence_06
P2. Being forced to do something is not illustrative of free will.
When you are forced to do something, you are free to not trust the person to force you but you chose to trust them and do what they say. 
The "force" is not necessarily the will of another human.

Try not eating or drinking or breathing.

Try not evacuating the products of your metabolic systems.

Try not sleeping.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
Forcing an unwed teen to give birth without offering any sort of safety-net is only going to "punish" the child (that you seem to care so much about).
Personally, I see the death penalty as a much more severe punishment for the child than growing up poor.
I see.

FUCK YOU KID, YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL YOU WERE EVEN BORN.
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Abortion and covid
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@Fruit_Inspector
The government is not obligated to convince people to obey the law at the taxpayers' expense.
So you'd prefer to pay $40,000.00 per year per prisoner ?
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Racism is a nonsense, malicious term
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@Mesmer
It's tremendous that every time someone says "racist", it has to be followed up by 'what do you mean by that?', 'what's your definition?' or 'how is that racist?'
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