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@fauxlaw
But, your example varies entirely from my argument, that CURRENT statutes and procedural policies no longer have Jim Crow, or any other racially biased content, at any level of jurisdiction. They used to, but they were legislatively and procedurally banned and eliminated, by several factors, including the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and those racist laws have been, by now, completely stricken from law and policy, which I why I can challenge anyone, even you, to show me a current law or policy that has racially biased content, at all. No one has ever been able to demonstrate a single instance. So, you throw out a wish balloon by a fictitious 400M race. Sorry, your come back is flat, Keep blowing.
EXPLICIT references to "the caucasian race" have been removed from the TEXT of current laws (mostly they are ignored in the cases where they have not been LITERALLY removed from the text).
hoWEVeR, there are still undeniably DISPARATE legal outcomes that cannot be LOGICALLY JUSTIFIED (without considering "skin-tone").
The "powder-cocaine" versus "crack-cocaine" sentencing disparity is only one example of this.
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@Mesmer
The catch was that no scar had been put on their face, and no medical sheet had been altered at all -- the people's perception of their false reality warped how they viewed the interactions.
Humans are naturally more empathetic towards other humans who look and or are perceived to be more similar to themselves.
This applies to much more than simply "skin-tone" but certainly includes "skin-tone".
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@Mesmer
The overwhelming majority of people don't announce the reasons for the their actions, especially if they're based upon racial animosity. For example, someone bumping into someone else in a store isn't going to announce, "I'm going to bump into you because you're black". So what then happens if that people are left to make an inference as to what has happened based on their feelings (a very error-prone process), rather than *knowing* the intent of the person.
Any system of justice that pretends to quantify "intent" is functionally indistinguishable from witchcraft.
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@fauxlaw
...state officials all worked together as an institution to promote racist violence, created a system that covered-up racist violenceNo, that is not the distinction I am making. My argument is that all the actions of all those levels of law enforcement are Not acting as an institution; they are acting against the institutional requirements, which are the system. They are not creating anything but chaos, because the system is already defined; they all collectively ignore it. That is individual racism, even when exhibited by a large group. Individual racism can be calculated and executed, just as working within the system is.
Well stated.
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@Double_R
Logical fallacies occur before the conclusion. Racism starts after the conclusion. There is no overlap, which is why I have been pointing out that they’re irrelevant to each other.
BROAD-BRUSH is prerequisite to "RACISM"
Remove the BROAD-BRUSH and there can be no "RACISM"
BROAD-BRUSH is integral to the existence and manifestation of "RACISM"
BROAD-BRUSH is inseparable from "RACISM"
One might even say, the BROAD-BRUSH is the mother of "RACISM"
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@Fruit_Inspector
whether or not it was "intended" to "discriminate" "against" "the black community" or not, IN PRACTICE it very clearly had that effect.Should we also assume that when a law benefits one racial group over others that, whether the benefit was intentional or not, the law is racist? Or at least functionally indistinguishable from systemic racism?
There is no reason to use the word "racist" which strongly implies some level of "intention" (QUALIA).
The aim here is to identify systemic failures and FIX THEM.
Can we agree that there are systemic failures that need to be fixed ?
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@zedvictor4
Humans are both decipherable and programmable.We are led to believe that all outcomes are genetically encoded, and therefore decipherableAnd we output data and behave, in a way that we were inadvertently conditioned to be.....We are genetically programmed and data conditioned.
Edward Bernays.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
people also lost trust in science when people like fauci came out and said that BLM protests could not spread covid19.
Fauci says "crowding together" does increase risk of spread.
Fauci refuses to say "protests should be limited".
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@oromagi
That would be a 12% trust situation
And there's the rub.
"the science" is not a source of news.
Not to mention that the overwhelming number of articles published in "scientific journals" are utter hogwash.
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@Fruit_Inspector
The problem I see is that you are associating crack with the black identity - with blackness. This ideology then perpetuates racial stereotypes that black people are crack addicts, even if unintentionally.
i believe "the point" here is that there is no LOGIC behind the disparity in sentencing between different forms of the same substance.
whether or not it was "intended" to "discriminate" "against" "the black community" or not, IN PRACTICE it very clearly had that effect.
So, FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE from "systemic racism".
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@Fruit_Inspector
Just so I'm clear, are you trying to assert that heroin is no more morally or physically destructive than refined sugar?
REFINED SUGAR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MORE DEATHS THAN HEROIN.
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@Fruit_Inspector
by allowing and enforcing the enslavement of certain humans
The law does not currently restrict the sale of products manufactured with forced labor.
Allowing the sale of products manufactured with forced labor is de facto support of forced labor practices.
There are still slaves in the world and we still profit from slavery, they're just not right in front of us.
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@ludofl3x
At a young age, I was introduced to a fable describing a frog being slowly boiled alive. The basic premise is a frog is dropped into a pot of boiling water, and it jumps out because of the sudden change in temperature. However, when the frog is placed in room temperature water, and the water is slowly brought to boil, Mr. Frog does not perceive the danger and is cooked to death. I was fascinated by this story.
This story has stuck with me. It’s the perfect metaphor to describe our inability or resistance to respond to threats that arise gradually. [**]
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@Double_R
States imposed curfews
Some mainstream commentators pin the genesis of curfews to Watts in 1965 or Detroit in 1967 — both rebellions squarely based in black-led calls for an end to police terrorism and discrimination in housing and employment. The story of the imposition of curfews as a response to black people’s demands for freedom has a much longer history, one that is central to the birth of the nation itself. [**]
Jews are placed under night curfew and are prohibited from being out in the streets from 9:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. during the summer and between 8:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. during the winter. [**]
At a young age, I was introduced to a fable describing a frog being slowly boiled alive. The basic premise is a frog is dropped into a pot of boiling water, and it jumps out because of the sudden change in temperature. However, when the frog is placed in room temperature water, and the water is slowly brought to boil, Mr. Frog does not perceive the danger and is cooked to death. I was fascinated by this story.
This story has stuck with me. It’s the perfect metaphor to describe our inability or resistance to respond to threats that arise gradually. [**]
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@EtrnlVw
ARE HUMANS UNDECIPHERABLE ENIGMAS OR PROGRAMMABLE BLACK BOXES?Both
Please explain.
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@Wylted
people also lost trust in science when people like fauci came out and said that BLM protests could not spread covid19.
Fauci says "crowding together" does increase risk of spread.
Fauci refuses to say "protests should be limited".
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@oromagi
64% of Americans say they trust science a Great deal/Quite a lot.18% trust Big Business16% trust TV news12% trust Congress
sO, when members of Congress are shown on TV news, which is owned by Big Business, and they claim to know "the science" which part of this house-of-cards are we supposed to "trust" ??
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@fauxlaw
Dr Fauci: "I am Science."Seems about as governmentally superior, i.e., controlling, as anything I've ever heard from a government representative. I'm only surprised he has not yet thought of wearing a mask like a diaper.
FAUCI on 60 Minutes March 2020 - "People should not be walking around with masks"
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@Greyparrot
Any time the government can make the case that you are too stupid to take care of yourself, democracy is irrelevant.
100% THIS.
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@Fruit_Inspector
You're right. I was responding to see how far you'd take the point down the rabbit hole. It looks like we reached that point. You're free to believe that I am holding an emotion-based opinion that has no reason to support it. So I will just state again, I don't feel like trying to convince you that shooting heroin is bad. That is the reason (not an emotion) behind why I hold the opinion that it is not worth debating the morality of heroin use.
(IFF) heroin is no more "morally" and or physically destructive than alcohol, gambling, or refined sugar (THEN) they should all (EITHER) be made legal (OR) they should all be made illegal (and or similarly restricted)
And to bring this back to the subject of "racism",
The ENFORCEMENT of drug laws is now, and has always been, disproportionate.
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@Double_R
Cite a law. Cite a policy. That's all. The caveat is that they must be current.Imagine I hold a 400 meter race and award the victor $10k. All White people get a 100 meter head start.Question: Once that gun goes off, aren’t the rules for everyone at that point, equal?
Well stated.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Are you saying that every opinion is based on at least one reason?
Or an E-MOTION.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Also, as I pointed out earlier, NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO RESPOND.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Now you're trying to debate whether my statement about heroin use is a reason-based opinion or a baseless opinion
There is no such thing as a "baseless opinion".
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@ludofl3x
"wear this mask forever and now I have personally gained [exactly what?]?" / "so I can control your entire life"? I just don't get the connection, can you illustrate it in some way?
IT'S A DE FACTO LOYALTY OATH.
The First Amendment states that Congress can make no law hindering the right of the people to peaceably assemble.
ALSO,
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@ebuc
It seems to me, that, the correct/proper control of the people may lead humanity onto a better trajectory than the one we are on now
VOTE EBUC FOR PRESIDENT OF PLANET EARTH
Tell us, fearless leader, how would you, in your unparalleled wisdom, how would you fix this mess?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Put more simply, I don't feel like trying to convince you that shooting heroin is bad.
That's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about whether or not you have REASONS to believe "that shooting heroin is bad".
I have no doubt you have an OPINION "that shooting heroin is bad".
And there's absolutely nothing "wrong" with holding an OPINION.
hOWEvER, it seems a little strange to pretend your OPINION is based on REASONS.
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@Fruit_Inspector
So if I were to just state my reasons plainly, how are you going to respond? Are you going to just say, "Oh, those are interesting reasons. Have a great day," and be done?Or are you going to try to rebut those reasons with your own arguments?
It depends on how "reasonable" they truly are.
Hell, I might even agree with you.
The problem here is that there is no way to know unless you present them.
Also, even if someone replies to one of your comments, you are never under any OBLIGATION to respond.
This is a PURELY VOLUNTARY exchange.
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DELUSION = SUCCESS
TED TALK - https://youtu.be/zeAEFEXvcBg
EXPLAINS WHY INCOMPETENT MEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE AT THE TOP OF HIERARCHICAL ORGANIZATIONS
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@Fruit_Inspector
I just don't feel like taking the time to debate why we shouldn't let people shoot heroin. That also heavily distracts from the topic of systemic racism, which is why I engaged in the first place.
Nobody is asking you to "debate".
Just state your reasons.
If you already have reasons, this should be easy.
If you have to think of some reasons, you should keep stalling.
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@Double_R
This conversation started because you equate racism (a negative emotional reaction to ones conclusion about another’s race) to a logical fallacy (an error in arriving at a conclusion from a given set of premises). You have yet to explain how these entirely separate things… are the same.
It seems, and I'm actually asking you, it seems like you believe that a "logical fallacy" is only, and can only be a "logical fallacy" in some sort of formal setting, like in a debate, or as a specifically formatted claim, like a syllogism.
Is this what you're suggesting ?
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@Athias
accumulated and cultivated data bound by logic, which is merely housed in the brain
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@Wylted
do you think a person should get their sense of self-worth from within themselves or from what other people think of themPeople get a sense of self worth from how much they feel they are useful to society. That can be tempting to get your self worth from others because of it. This isn't a theory. One of the fathers of modern psychology discovered this through experimentation. (Not Freud or jung but the other one that nobody remembers who came from the same peer group). Just be useful to somebody bro.
I'm quite certain humans are intrinsically valuable.
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@Sum1hugme
ARE HUMANS UNDECIPHERABLE ENIGMAS OR PROGRAMMABLE BLACK BOXES?Neither.
Please elaborate.
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@Athias
I find it difficult to disagree with you.
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@ebuc
Is any wonder humanity is doomed with at least 74 million of these free radicals running around loose /free in USA?
FREEDOM = EVIL
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@Fruit_Inspector
YES I HAVE REASONS TO BELIEVE THAT THE RECREATIONAL USE OF "DRUGS" LIKE HEROIN SHOULD BE ILLEGAL. BUT I REALLY DON'T FEEL LIKE GOING DOWN THAT RABBIT HOLE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO COME TO ANY MEANINGFUL RESOLUTION TO THIS ISSUE.
Why not simply state your REASONS ?
Claiming you have REASONS and refusing to reveal those REASONS is functionally indistinguishable from having NO REASONS.
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@zedvictor4
Well, your definition is variable, extending to potential associates and strangers whereby trustworthiness and "good guys" is very much speculative.And of course, expected levels of assistance are also going to be variable.
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE "REAL WORLD" IS NOT BINARY ?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Do you believe it should be a crime to use heroin?I guess not.Well that certainly adds another layer of complexity to the issue. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.
DO YOU HAVE ANY REASONS TO BELIEVE "DRUGS" SHOULD BE ILLEGAL ?
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@oromagi
Do you believe it should be a crime to use heroin?I guess not. The relapse rate for heroin is about 90% so its clear the rehabilitative effect is weak and the punitive effective is negligible. I suppose most heroin addicts end up commiting non-drug-related offenses sooner or later but fine, let them go down that way. Criminalizing drugs generally does not seem to have had the suppressive effect intended and the unintended consequences like making drug lords into powerful and well-armed organizations clearly outweighs any benefits we've seen.
Well stated.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Do you believe it should be a crime to use heroin?
HOW AN ISLAND IN THE ANTIPODES BECAME THE WORLD'S LEADING SUPPLIER OF LICIT OPIOIDS
Pharmaceutical companies exploited a regulatory loophole that allowed for a decades-long boom in licit opioid production fueled by Tasmanian-grown poppies. Here's what the island can tell us—and why supply matters for solving the third wave of the overdose crisis. [**]
Fentanyl was first made by Paul Janssen in 1960 and approved for medical use in the United States in 1968. In 2015, 1,600 kilograms (3,500 lb) were used in healthcare globally. As of 2017, fentanyl was the most widely used synthetic opioid in medicine. [**]
(IFF) fentanyl is legal (THEN) all substances that are less dangerous than fentanyl should also be legal
(IFF) alcohol is legal (THEN) all substances that are less dangerous than alcohol should also be legal
it’s hard to imagine that not long ago one could purchase the drug from a Sears catalogue.
Heroin was the first to fall from pharmaceutical darling to a demonized, black-market street drug. Long used as a cure for aches and pains, it wasn’t until Chinese immigrants came to the United States to work on the railroads and mines that opium-based products such as heroin were perceived as dangerous. American settlers were not happy with the Chinese arrivals, who brought with them a cultural tradition of smoking opium for relaxation in the evenings. The settlers accused the Chinese of “taking our jobs,” and economic resentment morphed into rumors of Chinese men luring white women into opium dens and getting them addicted. Rumors turned to fear, which turned to hysteria, [**]
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@Dr.Franklin
I still remember the first time someone explained to me the difference between "the scientific method" and "scientism". [LINK]
An astronomer, a physicist and a mathematician are on a train in Scotland. The astronomer looks out of the window, sees a black sheep standing in a field, and remarks, "How odd. All the sheep in Scotland are black!" "No, no, no!" says the physicist. "Only some Scottish sheep are black." The mathematician rolls his eyes at his companions' muddled thinking and says, "In Scotland, there is at least one sheep, at least one side of which appears to be black from here some of the time." [**]
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@oromagi
do you believe that some people tend to adopt "the scientific method" to deal with challenges they encounter ??
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@oromagi
but I don't think history lets us pretend that which drugs get criminalized and which don't never had a distinctly racial bias.
Well stated.
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@oromagi
Do you believe "the scientific method" can be fairly characterized as a "problem solving strategy" ?
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@oromagi
ARE HUMANS UNDECIPHERABLE ENIGMAS OR PROGRAMMABLE BLACK BOXES?no
Please present your proposed third option.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Wait, why is criminalization of drug use racist?
"We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.” [LINK]
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@oromagi
So then you fault fauxlaw's definition of SYSTEMIC RACISM for failing to account for the conduct of racist institutions as welll as the failures of government systems built to hold such institutions accountable?
(IFF) the "institution" itself is 100% "neutral", (AND) (IFF) the "institution" does nothing to safeguard against enforcement BIAS (AND) (IFF) the "institution" generates statistically significant and persistent disparity in outcomes based purely on "racism" that cannot be explained by some other quantifiable factors (THEN) the "institution" is functionally-indistinguishable from a "racist" "institution" (de facto systemic-racism)
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@Double_R
And yet no one who points to someone claiming them to be a racist is talking about logic, so this is all completely irrelevant to racism. What is your point?
HAVE YOU EVER MET SOMEONE, ANYONE WHO OPENLY ADMITS THEY ARE "UNREASONABLE" ?
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@Double_R
And yet no one who points to someone claiming them to be a racist is talking about logic, so this is all completely irrelevant to racism. What is your point?
This seems like somewhat of an OVERSTATEMENT.
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