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@oromagi
so long as the definition of SYSTEMIC RACISM only accounts for the TEXT
A system that does nothing to mitigate potential (and demonstrable) bias by the individuals responsible for enforcing the law could be considered a system that at best, IGNORES the bias that contaminates its operation and at worst, PROTECTS the bias that contaminates its operation.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Do laws regarding illicit drug use only apply to black people? Or is everyone equally forbidden from using certain drugs?
THEY SHOULD APPLY EQUALLY TO ALL PEOPLE, BUT APPARENTLY THERE IS SOME EXTREMELY PERSISTENT DISTORTION IN ENFORCEMENT.
PERHAPS WE CAN AGREE THAT THERE IS NOT EXPLICIT "RACISM" IN THE LETTER OF THE LAW (although the criminalization of recreational drug use is "racist" in and of itself) BUT ALL THAT ASIDE, THERE IS CLEARLY "RACISM" IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW.
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@Fruit_Inspector
And do laws regarding illicit drug use only apply to black people? Or is everyone equally forbidden from using certain drugs?
Since blacks are 40% of drug violation arrests but only 13% of admitted drug users, there is an apparent disparity of 27 percentage points.
BUT BEYOND THAT, YOU SEEM TO BE GLOSSING OVER THIS,
"We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.” [LINK]
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@Fruit_Inspector
That link did not cite a current law or policy that is discriminatory in it's nature.
The DEA itself was created in order to aggressively incarcerate minorities and hippies.
This has not changed.
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@fauxlaw
So, address the real systemic issue: Prosecution of wrong doers. The system is not the problem. How the system is utilized is the problem.
THERE IT IS.
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ARE HUMANS UNDECIPHERABLE ENIGMAS OR PROGRAMMABLE BLACK BOXES?
do you believe that people tend to adopt general strategies to deal with challenges they encounter ??
do you believe these strategies are identifiable ??
(1) do you think a person should get their sense of self-worth from within themselves or from what other people think of them?
(2) do you prefer to be spontaneous and go out and travel and do things "IRL" or do you prefer to think about doing things and lose yourself in movies and television shows and books ?
(3) do you think people should generally trust their gut or do you think people should generally think things through ??
(4) do you think people should follow a strict core code of laws or principles no matter what, or do you think that people should follow different rules in different situations ??
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@fauxlaw
If you claim that systemic racism is based on such laws and policies, why don 't any of you cite them? Your claim, alone, by your own definitions, fail to impress.
A system that does nothing to mitigate potential (and demonstrable) bias by the individuals responsible for enforcing the law could be considered a system that at best, IGNORES the bias that contaminates its operation and at worst, PROTECTS the bias that contaminates its operation.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I agree with you that systemic racism cannot definitionally exist without any laws or policies that can be identified as discriminatory.
Consider the following, [LINK]
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@fauxlaw
C: In legal practice, systemic racism no longer exists.
Why do minorities receive longer sentences for the same crimes ? [LINK]
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@fauxlaw
One might argue, in use of terms de jure and de facto, that systemic racism in the U.S. is neither de jure, nor de facto.De jure systemic racism implies that whether or not racism exists in reality, there is legal recognition of it.De facto systemic racism implies that legally and procedurally, there is real systemic racism.Neither condition holds.
ALSO, [LINK]
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@oromagi
What definition of SYSTEMIC RACISM are you employing?
Phenomenal question.
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@Reece101
Stating “racism is a nonsense, malicious term” isn’t an argument.
IT'S A DEBATE RESOLUTION.
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@ebuc
i appreciate your eternal and immutable metaphysical framework, however, in this case, you seem to be missing the point.
specifically that we have GRANTED THE PREMISE (for the sake of argument, GOD = PERFECT).
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@MarkWebberFan
ed samaritans. If my mother died of Covid-19, I am more likely to treat covid-19 patients without pay, because anything related to covid reminds me of my deceased mother.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN MORE EASILY EMPATHIZE WITH THOSE WHO HAVE SIMILAR EXPERIENCES (or at least that you perceive as similar).
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@MarkWebberFan
I think this sounds a lot lazier than building a monument.
The point here is that doing "something" (like building a monument) to make the thieves grandchildren "feel-better" is probably NOT what the wronged party would prefer (they most likely want their land back + leasing fees equivalent to the time it was illegally occupied).
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@Reece101
It’s okay to be racist.
it is not currently illegal to hold an opinion.
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@Mesmer
AD HOMINEM ATTACKLol so this isn't Ad Hom because I didn't claim that because he's that stupid, his post is wrong. I claimed that because his post was so wrong (we're talking denial of things right in front of him), he's stupid. It's astounding how stupid he has been, actually. I'm almost certain he's not trolling. It deserves an award.
this is really begging the question of WHY you would bother to mention this "information".
it seems obvious that your only possible motive would be to pre-emptively DISCREDIT any FUTURE arguments (specifically from the person in question).
any comment on the SPEAKER and not specifically on their WORDS is an AD HOMINEM ATTACK.
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@Mesmer
Also, it would help avoid creating policy based on falsehoods.
Please be slightly more specific.
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@Double_R
A person’s attitude or feelings about someone can be based on a logical fallacy, that does not make said attitudes or feelings… a fallacy.
IT DOES, HOWEVER, MAKE THAT PERSON'S ATTITUDE OR FEELINGS AN EXAMPLE OF A LOGICAL FALLACY.
just like the fundamental-attribution-error (which is an implicit logical fallacy).
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@Double_R
Two problems though. One is that reasonable does not = right. We all at some point in our lives have been treated a certain way because of something that had nothing to do with us. So even in the case where a given stereotype is mostly accurate, if you believe we should all be treated as individuals and held to account based on our actions/decisions then it’s easy to see why the potential reasonableness of a discriminatory attitude must take a back seat. And it might not always be easy, but anyone who cares at all about being a good person should work to try and rid themselves of these attitudes.The other is that many of these cases are not actual lived experiences, it’s the result of cherry picking that goes on when people share stories of things that happened to them or things they saw on Instagram. No one shares the story of the guy who helped them with their groceries, so if this is where you’re getting your information from of course it’s just going to reinforce whatever stereotype you already accept. Most people are good, it’s just easy for us to accept those negative stereotypes because we often don’t spend enough of our time in the spaces of those we tend to discriminate against.
YOU'RE LITERALLY DESCRIBING AND THEN RE-DESCRIBING THE BROAD-BRUSH FALLACY.
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@Mesmer
because it is possible to reject someone's culture
CULT(URE) IS NOT UNIFORM
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@Double_R
Racism is not a fallacy. You're confusing the presumption of what someone's race or ethnicity is with how one feels about it. Racism is the latter.
WHY DOES SOMEONE DISLIKE SOMEONE BECAUSE OF THEIR SKIN COLOR ?
THE ONLY REASON TO DO SO IS BECAUSE OF THE BROAD-BRUSH.
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@Mesmer
It's spectacular that you've found a way to be this stupid. You may be the first person in the history of humanity to have negative I.Q.
AD HOMINEM ATTACK
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@Reece101
Stating “racism is a nonsense, malicious term” isn’t an argument.
It's a conversation starter.
It is impossible to tell where a person was born simply by looking at them.
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@zedvictor4
Depends upon how you define the "group".
The people you consider "friends" and or "family" and or "potential friends" and or people you personally consider to be "the good guys".
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@Mesmer
My proposed conclusion is that we accept racial genetic differences for what they are: real.
Why ?
Why do you think this is "important" ?
If you're not proposing any particular policy, why should anyone care ?
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@zedvictor4
True altruists are very very thin on the ground.
Do you believe people are more likely to take action to assist people they perceive to be in their own "in-group" ??
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@Theweakeredge
Ragnar discussion, he literally specified.
I addressed all salient points.
If you believe I missed something, please be slightly more specific.
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@MarkWebberFan
It also generates more help than empathy.
Example of sympathy,
My grandparents stole from your grandparents, I feel bad about that, but I'm not really sure what to do about it, maybe we'll build a monument to your grandparents and change some of the laws that let my grandparents steal from your grandparents.
Example of empathy,
My grandparents stole from your grandparents, I will return to you what my grandparents stole from your grandparents (because that's what I would want if I was in your shoes).
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@MarkWebberFan
I saw your (3RU7AL) vids. I still think empathy requires more energy than sympathy.
Depending on your personality.
For some people, empathy is reflexive.
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@Mesmer
The whole point of this thread is to remind people that racial differences are scientifically plausible.
The core disagreement is, whether or not we should hinge any particular POLICY on "skin-tone".
What is your proposed conclusion if your contention is accepted ??
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@Reece101
Racism is a nonsense, malicious termYou better not call yourself a conservative with this sort of snowflakery.Such victim olympics nonsense. Wear racism on your arm.
A critique of "racism" ≠ "racism"
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@Mesmer
BUT LET'S GRANT YOUR PREMISE. ARE YOU SUGGESTING WE SHOULD PRIMARILY SELECT JEWISH ASIANS FOR POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY ?No.
(IFF) jewish asians are unquestionably "more intelligent" than everyone else (THEN) what the heck do you propose we do with this "information" ???
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@Double_R
Since it's impossible to see someone's birthplace or their parent's birthplace, "racism" (as you've defined it) is impossible.Racism is a mentality. There is nothing about it that requires the person holding discriminatory views to be factually correct.
"Racism" pretends to be able to detect "general trustworthiness" and "intelligence" based purely on skin-tone.
This is clearly a BROAD-BRUSH FALLACY.
My question to you is, how is this BROAD-BRUSH FALLACY any more "evil" than any other BROAD-BRUSH FALLACY ??
For example, Pol Pot had people slaughtered for the crime of reading books.
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@Wylted
It's actually pretty racist to deny housing or employment due to skin color.
Only if you strictly define racism as "skin-tone" (divorced from other implied undetectable "genetic" characteristics).
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@Athias
Do these CAUSES also have CAUSES ?Yes.
(IFF) CAUSES also have CAUSES (AND) CAUSES of CAUSES also have CAUSES (AND) PERFECT GOD IS THE FIRST CAUSE (THEN) the causal-chain must be PERFECT
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@Vader
In my belief, god himself his perfect. That's my belief because of my religion.
How can a PERFECT GOD create anything less-than-PERFECT ??
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@Barney
What skin color you're born with, isn't a choice. Religion, political party, etc., are choices.
This doesn't track.
Jews are born Jewish.
Hindus are born into a CASTE based on their skin-tone.
Geography (and skin-tone) is highly correlated with religious and political belief.
The magnitude of difference should be self evident.
There's the "problem".
It's NOT "self-evident".
Hate breeds Hate, irregardless of the proximate excuse.
Your example conflates "belief" and "murder".
I'm trying to focus on "belief" specifically.
Everyone ALREADY agrees on "murder = bad".
I hope we can agree that arresting people for personal opinions (thought-police) is immoral.
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@Theweakeredge
You're doing that thing again where you ignore all refutation of your points - read - it'll do wonders for ya'
Please be slightly more specific.
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@Barney
If you actually think there's no difference between disliking someone for them wanting to de-criminalize rape (at least if it results in pregnancy), and just being born one skin tone instead of another, I don't know what to say to you.
If you actually can't explain the REASON why you think that disliking someone for a personal opinion they happen have is better (or worse) than disliking someone for their physical and or mental characteristics then you are by definition an UNREASONABLE person.
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@zedvictor4
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@zedvictor4
For sure.Sympathy is a direct and motivating response to a stimulus.Whereas empathy is perhaps a more intuitive response.
What’s the difference between empathy and sympathy? Basically, emotion. Empathy means experiencing someone else’s feelings. It comes from the German Einfühlung, or ‘feeling into.’ It requires an emotional component of really feeling what the other person is feeling. Sympathy, on the other hand, means understanding someone else’s suffering. It’s more cognitive in nature and keeps a certain distance. [**]
E-MOTION is much more likely to compel one to ACT.
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@Barney
In 2012 he went public with his belief that it scientifically (he seriously claimed science on this) doesn't count as rape if you get her pregnant.
Did they sponsor legislation to this effect, or was this more of a "personal opinion" ?
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@Barney
As an example, no sane person would hate Todd Akin for the conditions of his birth. That as a politician he wanted to decriminalize any rape resulting in pregnancy... His sincerely held beliefs make him repentant.
Please explain.
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@MarkWebberFan
If a sense of community gives some sort of justification for a long-held belief that you should stone adulterers, then perhaps you have failed as a human being.
How do you square this statement with the following,
I think treating enemies kindly is naive
Isn't an "enemy" simply a "rule breaker" at its core?
I mean, if you encountered a group of people who were technically strangers to you, but followed nearly all of your same beliefs and laws, would they be "friends" or "enemies"?
It seems obvious that strangers we disagree with are automatically going to be labeled as "enemies".
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@MarkWebberFan
If peer pressure is a problem for them, then the fault is on them.
SOCIETY = PEER PRESSURE
ANTI-PEER PRESSURE = ANTI-SOCIAL
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@MarkWebberFan
Isn't killing or imprisoning or denying someone a job because of their religion and or political belief just as "evil" as "racism" ?They're not the same thing. Belief is an association of different ideas. You connect ideas like an umbrella. If you believe in religious dustbins like Saudi Arabia, there's a high chance that you believe that anything outside of its life values is barbaric. I think treating enemies kindly is naive; the west often makes this simple mistake of trying to act ethically with rather suspicious and morally questionable individuals.
HUMANS are HUMANS and want what HUMANS want.
We all have the exact same goals.
We use DIFFERENT strategies to achieve those goals.
HISTORICALLY, NATIONALITY and RELIGION are the exact same thing.
JEWS are born JEWISH.
SHINTO = JAPANESE
A HINDU is literally born into a CASTE based on your SKIN-TONE.
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@MarkWebberFan
I want to know why good samaritans like Z exist, if indeed selfishness is coded in our genes.
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@Barney
If the police arrested someone for advocating communism, that would be absurdly stupid,
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@Barney
Whereas if they arrested someone for murdering other people,
You're proposing they be punished for their violation of law, NOT "their sincerely held belief".
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