3RU7AL's avatar

3RU7AL

A member since

3
4
9

Total posts: 14,582

Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
“I don’t know if you heard, but one who frees his slaves violates a positive precept, i.e. you shall make them serve you forever.” He continues saying that the manumission of slaves does not apply at the present moment, therefore, he desists. The first brother replies and tells him not to violate the positive precept of the Torah." [**]
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Bible Really Support Slavery?
-->
@ethang5
“I don’t know if you heard, but one who frees his slaves violates a positive precept, i.e. you shall make them serve you forever.” He continues saying that the manumission of slaves does not apply at the present moment, therefore, he desists. The first brother replies and tells him not to violate the positive precept of the Torah." [**]
Created:
0
Posted in:
Does the Bible Really Support Slavery?
-->
@ethang5
The word slave as used in the bible doesn't mean what you are trying to imply.
I'M PRETTY CERTAIN MODERN JEWISH SCHOLARS KNOW WHAT THE HEBREW WORDS MEAN.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
Like these various commandments?

Maharaurava (great-fearful): A person who indulges at the expense of other beings is afflicted with pain by fierce rurus called kravyadas, who eat his flesh.[3][4]

Kumbhipaka (cooked in a pot): A person who cooks beasts and birds alive is cooked alive in boiling oil by Yamadutas here, for as many years as there were hairs on the bodies of their animal victims.[3][4]

Kalasutra (thread of Time/Death): The Bhagavata Purana assigns this hell to a murderer of a brahmin,[3] while the Devi Bhagavata Purana allocates it for a person who disrespects his parents, elders, ancestors or brahmins.[4] This realm is made entirely of copper and extremely hot, heated by fire from below and the red hot sun from above. Here, the sinner burns from within by hunger and thirst and the smouldering heat outside, whether he sleeps, sits, stands or runs.[3][4]
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
But if all we have to worry about is what is asked of us, then we don't really need to worry about how it reflects anything else.
What is asked of us?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Man's own unwillingness to see the proof of Gods existence
So us being made in gods image is a lie. Either we are like gods or we are not 
Great point.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
presumably one will get you 1% into heaven and the other will get you 95% into heaven, so, a pretty big difference
I don't understand that. If I do 100 of what is expected of me, regardless of how I compute it in relationship to the transcendent morality, then I earn my 100%.
In that case, it's even more important to figure out how accurately "manslaw" mirrors "transcendent morality" since there doesn't appear to be any margin of error.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
They must have wreaked God's vengeance on whatever section of the Midianite peopple who were in the area in whcih they found themselves.
The lesson, as it were, ...we shouldn't slaughter anyone.
So are you anti-war?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
I would suggest that nothing is changed. If we only had part of the picture originally, then we get more info in the form of later commands in other cases.
How is the Midian situation a special case?

What are we supposed to learn from this story?

Also, the biblical Midian was in the northwest Arabian Peninsula, on the east shore of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red Sea.

Does this mean we should slaughter everyone in the northwest Arabian Peninsula, on the east shore of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red Sea?
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
Why would we try to determine any percentage of overlap (1 or 95 percent)? What good does that do?
Well, presumably one will get you 1% into heaven and the other will get you 95% into heaven, so, a pretty big difference.

And there are zillions of laws, many of them contradictory and even more of them ridiculously inconvenient.

It might be useful to be able to filter them down to ONLY the "transcendently moral" ones (so we can focus our efforts).
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
and explains by means of textual sources how the command to kill the women was part of God's original command which the soldiers chose to ignore.
Of course it was part of "YHWH's" original command.  That was never in dispute.

The question on the table is, "was the slaughter transcendently moral?" does "YHWH" change the rules for certain specific situations?
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
Man's being limited by law very often mirrors that larger morality but not always.
How can we determine how much (or how little) "manslaw" mirrors "transcendent morality"?

I mean if it's just a guess, it might be less than a 1% match.

AND, is it ok to slaughter prisoners of war?
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
I'm suggesting that we shouldn't confuse a transcendent morality for the law imposed on human kind.
What is "transcendent morality" iff "YHWH" can just change the rules on a whim?

Were the Midianite women and children who were slaughtered AFTER the battle was over some special exception to "transcendent morality" or was that slaughter a "general moral good" that we should emulate?
Created:
1
Posted in:
From the perspective of Romans and Hebrews at the time, was Jesus a cult leader?
-->
@FLRW
The first problem we encounter when trying to discover more about the Historical Jesus is the lack of early sources. The earliest sources only reference the clearly fictional Christ of Faith. These early sources, compiled decades after the alleged events, all stem from Christian authors eager to promote Christianity – which gives us reason to question them. The authors of the Gospels fail to name themselves, describe their qualifications, or show any criticism with their foundational sources – which they also fail to identify. Filled with mythical and non-historical information, and heavily edited over time, the Gospels certainly should not convince critics to trust even the more mundane claims made therein. Paul’s Epistles, written earlier than the Gospels, give us no reason to dogmatically declare Jesus must have existed. Avoiding Jesus’ earthly events and teachings, even when the latter could have bolstered his own claims, Paul only describes his “Heavenly Jesus.” Even when discussing what appear to be the resurrection and the last supper, his only stated sources are his direct revelations from the Lord, and his indirect revelations from the Old Testament. In fact, Paul actually rules out human sources (see Galatians 1:11-12).
NOT TO MENTION THIS.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@rosends
First and foremost, one has to accept the idea that the "sin" status of incest was only established when God gave laws against it.
Awesome.

Are you suggesting that morality changes when "YHWH" decides to change it?
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
-->
@Stephen
I've always wondered who qyn and ibil were married to.

The testimony of the ancient rabbis is that Cain and Abel married their sisters. This is also logically inferred from the Church’s doctrine on original sin. Original sin is passed on to all human beings from our first parents, Adam and Eve. As St. Paul says, “[S]in came into the world through one man” (Rom. 5:12; cf. Rom. 5:19-20 and Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 402-06). [**]
Created:
1
Posted in:
What are conservatives... for?
-->
@TheUnderdog
Not many people were calling for these people to be thrown in prison. 
ONLY BECAUSE "THE NEWS" BLAMED INDIVIDUAL HOME OWNERS FOR THE CRISIS.

PROSECUTORS HAD STRONG CASES AGAINST THOSE RESPONSIBLE AND THAT'S WHY THEY PAID $40 BILLION DOLLARS IN FINES. [**]

Recessions happen very frequently.  You can't jail someone for a recession that was out of their control.
FRAUD CAUSED THIS ONE.
Created:
0
Posted in:
I never INTENDED to hurt anyone.
-->
@ebuc
The human mind can handle cases in which truth and provability diverge.
THAT'S A BUG, NOT A FEATURE.
Created:
1
Posted in:
I never INTENDED to hurt anyone.
-->
@ebuc
Most humans can't perform accurate "artistic appraisal" it's a goddamned crap shoot.

DeepMind can at least compare your "original" artwork to "the masters" based on procrustean measures of composition, color, brush technique, etcetera (isn't that what humans do?).

Did you happen to see that someone bought a pixel art pop tart cat for $590,000.00 [**]

I'll bet you GPT3 can predict what people will be willing to pay for some item, any item, about 10,000% more accurately than 99.9999% of "human beings".

Let's see WATSON2 compete on "the price is right".
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does time exist?
-->
@zedvictor4
"Spacetime" is a theoretical corruption of two words, and represents something completely different from the basic understanding of Space and Time.
The logical consequence of taking these postulates together is the inseparable joining together of the four dimensions—hitherto assumed as independent—of space and time. Many counterintuitive consequences emerge. [**]

People have always taken space for granted. It is just emptiness, after all—a backdrop to everything else. Time, likewise, simply ticks on incessantly. But if physicists have learned anything from the long slog to unify their theories, it is that space and time form a system of such staggering complexity that it may defy our most ardent efforts to understand. [**]

EVERYTHING THAT TRAVELS THROUGH "SPACE" ALSO TRAVELS THROUGH "TIME".

EVERYTHING THAT TRAVELS THROUGH "TIME" ALSO TRAVELS THROUGH "SPACE".

THE TWO CONCEPTS ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO FUNDAMENTALLY SEPARATE.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
IF we disagree about the existence of objective morality (say you think it does exist and I say it doesn't) AND IF we both have (differing) opinions (which we have expressed during the conversation) THEN without a way to determine or demonstrate any objective moral standard we cannot say with any degree of certainty that opinions are contingent upon objective morality. 
Furthermore, (IFF) it is only possible to have opinions about "objectively extant real true facts" (THEN) our opinions themselves are proof-positive that morality is an "objectively extant real true fact"

this is sort of an ontological argument for platonic morality.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@Tarik
Just call it opinions about morals then. We agree those exist right?
Under nihilism morality doesn’t exist, therefore you can’t have an opinion on it because it doesn’t exist.
Just because I don't personally believe in santa claus, doesn't mean I don't understand the concept of santa claus and the idea that some people do believe in santa claus.

I can still discuss santa claus and express opinions about santa claus, regardless of my actual lack of faith in the authenticity of stories of flying caribou.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@Tarik
Moral opinions
There’s no such thing,
HOW DO I KNOW WHAT YOUR GOD WANTS ME TO DO?

PLEASE TELL ME, AND BE SPECIFIC, BECAUSE I'M SUPER AFRAID OF GOING TO HELL.
Created:
1
Posted in:
I never INTENDED to hurt anyone.
-->
@Double_R
Just because the program isn't INTENTIONALLY unfair, this immunity to INTENTIONALITY does not mean that the computer program IS ACTUALLY AND OBJECTIVELY FAIR.
That depends on how you are determining what is fair. The program calculates based on the premises imported into it, so late payment will cost you X amount of points no matter who has one. Whether X is fair is an entirely different question.

I fail to see how this relates.
Human decision making and action is NOT fundamentally distinguishable from the "purely neutral" computer program.
Created:
1
Posted in:
I never INTENDED to hurt anyone.
-->
@secularmerlin
Because there is a difference between someone who does a bad thing on purpose vs. someone who does a bad thing by accident.
Perhaps it would facilitate the conversation to state plainly exactly what that difference is, how we can FUNCTIONALLY tell the difference between the two states of affairs and what, if any, specific course of action this would seem to dictate.
Usually the "planner" either provides evidence (notes, diagrams, phone calls or other communication) or simply admits to concocting a plan.

My original hypothetical was formed around the idea of someone who either claims there was no plan (and was careful to not leave any evidence of a plan) or planned a crime they did NOT commit.

For example, it is illegal to threaten to "kill the president", apparently you will be investigated by the FBI if anyone makes such a threat (even if your "plan" has no specifics).

HOwEver, apparently someone can write script that gets optioned and financed into a major motion picture where the main character creates an elaborate and shockingly realistic plan to "kill the president".
Created:
1
Posted in:
I never INTENDED to hurt anyone.
-->
@Double_R
Impulse control is quantifiable and is a primary predictor of anti-social and aberrant behavior.
Yes, it is also a skill that can be learned.
It's more of a habit that can be reinforced.

Therefore the difference between someone who suffers from impulse control has a path to improvement.
And what exactly is that "path to improvement"?

Are they perhaps court ordered to be treated for dopamine addiction?

Someone who acts badly with malice and forethought has no path because they don’t want one.
Anyone with adequate risk aversion AND adequate impulse control will not be caught committing any crimes (but they may still be falsely convicted since there is no way to mitigate the risk of a false conviction).

Let's imagine they are not captured.

Person (A) may decide the risk of another heist is NOT worth the potential reward (especially with the inherent risks involved with laundering and spending the loot).

Person (B) may impulsively commit more crimes because apparently they can get away with it, since they got away with it so easily the first time.

Person (B) is clearly a greater threat to the peaceful function of a society.
Created:
1
Posted in:
I never INTENDED to hurt anyone.
-->
@Double_R
Let me ask you... do you believe there is a difference between a bad person and a person who did a bad thing? If so, what is that difference?
We judge individuals based on the totality of their actions with regards to their intent. Why does intent come into the equation? Because there is a difference between someone who does a bad thing on purpose vs. someone who does a bad thing by accident. Or, at least I used to think we could all agree on that...
Do you think that most people who do "bad" things also have "bad" intentions?

Are you familiar with the Legendary "Robin Hood"?
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
we are defacto agreeing for the purposes of this conversation
Yep.
Created:
0
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@Tarik
You haven’t provided any valid alternatives to the alternatives.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Universal Basic Income
-->
@secularmerlin
Created:
1
Posted in:
From the perspective of Romans and Hebrews at the time, was Jesus a cult leader?
-->
@RationalMadman
Jewish heretic.

Street magician.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
A little like asking how we can consider ourselves really hoopty froods without zaphod beeblebrox as an objective example. 
Well stated.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Man's own unwillingness to see the proof of Gods existence
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Even better yet, WHICH God is being defined because in the biblical era, MANY gods existed, whereas today, the main gods that are still around are Yahweh, Jesus, and Allah.
Excellent point.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Man's own unwillingness to see the proof of Gods existence
-->
@ronjs
Yes
Well then, you probably understand it's a simple matter of how someone chooses to define the word, "GOD".
Created:
1
Posted in:
If hate speech is banned
-->
@TheUnderdog
"RACE" = PROXY FOR SOCIAL STATUS
Created:
0
Posted in:
God’s Own Unwillingness to Show “proof” of His Existence.
-->
@Stephen
You haven't explained how Thomas was allowed to "tempt the lord"  against the strict command concerning tempting the lord? Deuteronomy 6:16 .  Matthew 4:7
Special pleading?

GOD moves in mysterious ways?
Created:
1
Posted in:
God’s Own Unwillingness to Show “proof” of His Existence.
-->
@Dr.Franklin
because the theology is wrong
The fundamental "get to heaven" bit is correct, but some of the other purely incidental stuff is "wrong"?

Who cares?

Why would anyone care about the purely incidental stuff?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@Tarik
IS THIS YOUR ARGUMENT?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@Tarik
But didn't you define "moral" as "behavior that will be rewarded" and "immoral" as "behavior that will be punished"?
In the afterlife.
Sure, of course.

HEAVEN AND HELL AND ALL THAT JAZZ.

THE ONE TRUE SECRET MORAL CODEX = A COMPREHENSIVE CATALOG OF ALL BEHAVIOR AND OR INTENTIONS THAT WILL BE REWARDED AND OR PUNISHED (IN HEAVEN AND OR HELL)

Created:
1
Posted in:
Does time exist?
-->
@fauxlaw
Time is a logical necessity.
When is finite more logical than eternity?
The concept of "eternity" is incoherent.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@Tarik
That implies the law is moral, which is a claim you’ve yet to prove.
Please correct me if I am mistaken,

But didn't you define "moral" as "behavior that will be rewarded" and "immoral" as "behavior that will be punished"?

THE ONE TRUE SECRET MORAL CODEX = A COMPREHENSIVE CATALOG OF ALL BEHAVIOR AND OR INTENTIONS THAT WILL BE REWARDED AND OR PUNISHED

Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
Perhaps I could set up a booth at a carnival with a sign,

"Your Philosophical self-portrait painted in logic for the low low price of 1000 responses"
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
I have a suspicion that Tarik might be suggesting PROCRUSTEAN MORALITY when they use the term "objective morality".
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
Also, compared to mop, pga, eth, tarik is leading the pack.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
Always the over achiever doing Tarik's homework. Now if he copies you how will I know he has learned the lesson or just being a parrot?
Teach someone to fish?
Created:
0
Posted in:
Of course morality is subjective.
-->
@Dr.Franklin
we all know what is right and wrong
Are you suggesting that everyone who disagrees with you throughout all of human history was merely being INSINCERE?
Created:
2
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@secularmerlin
DEITY = OMNISCIENT OMNIPOTENT OMNIPRESENT ETERNAL CREATOR OF ALL
MORAL = BEHAVIOR AND OR INTENTIONS THAT WILL BE REWARDED BY DEITY
IMMORAL = BEHAVIOR AND OR INTENTIONS THAT WILL BE PUNISHED BY DEITY
"EXISTS" = TREATED AS A FACT FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS PROPOSAL
"NIHILISM" = ANYONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE UNWAVERING FAITH IN DEITY

(IFF) DEITY "EXISTS" (AND) (IFF) DEITY IS "MORAL" (AND) (IFF) DEITY CERTAINLY PUNISHES IMMORAL AND REWARDS MORAL (THEN) "OBJECTIVE MORALITY" "EXISTS" 

(ELSE) "NIHILISM"

THEREFORE, YOU MUST DISCOVER AND OR OTHERWISE DETECT THE ONE TRUE SECRET MORAL CODEX IFF YOU FEAR UNSPECIFIED PUNISHMENT AND OR HOPE FOR UNSPECIFIED REWARD
Created:
1
Posted in:
Our most basic axioms
-->
@Tarik
It sounds to me like you are confirming "a non-GOD believer IS CAPABLE of moral action" is your claim.

Is this correct?
YES.

And in support of that claim, COUNTRIES WITH LOWER RATES OF RELIGIOSITY ALSO HAVE LOWER CRIME RATES.

The most religious societies include Nigeria, Uganda, the Philippines, Pakistan, Morocco, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Colombia, Senegal, Malawi, Indonesia, Brazil, Peru, Jordan, Algeria, Ghana, Venezuela, Mexico and Sierra Leone.

It is the highly secularized countries that tend to fare the best in terms of crime rates, prosperity, equality, freedom, democracy, women’s rights, human rights, educational attainment and life expectancy. (Although there are exceptions, such as Vietnam and China, which have famously poor human rights records.)

And those nations with the highest rates of religiosity tend to be the most problem-ridden in terms of high violent crime rates, high infant mortality rates, high poverty rates and high rates of corruption.

Take homicide. According to the United Nations’ 2011 Global Study on Homicide, of the 10 nations with the highest homicide rates, all are very religious, and many — such as Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil — are among the most theistic nations in the world. Of the nations with the lowest homicide rates, nearly all are very secular, with seven ranking among the least theistic nations, such as Sweden, Japan, Norway and the Netherlands. [**]
Created:
0
Posted in:
Does time exist?
-->
@zedvictor4
Time is the possibility, that allows events to have duration....As such it does not exist.
SPACETIME "exists" as more of a canvas and "exists" less like the paint on a canvas.
Created:
1
Posted in:
Does time exist?
-->
@fauxlaw
Of course it does. First, I have to align with the side on which time does not exist but by human imposition. Apologists for time will introduce such terms as "relativity," but that is, after all, just an attempt to justify the concept in the first place.

Why is "succession" time-based? Because we say so. What if "succession" is not time-based, but accomplishment-based? I accomplished a thing. Based on that accomplishment, I accomplish another thing. Based on that, I will accomplish still a third thing. But my commentary of past, present, future,  and even numbering the accomplishments is still rooted in the idea of a time-basis. I could, assuming a god-like perspective, use a similar description as given to Moses by God when Moses asked him who he should say to the Israelites was sending him, God replied, "I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." The simple fact of God's existence was sufficient for the proof of him. So, if asked when and how I did something, I could reply, "I accomplished this," and "I accomplished that," and the timing of accomplishments is merely secondary to the facts of accomplishment, and accomplishment is the appropriate measure, regardless of a truly non-extant feature of the universe.
Time is a logical necessity.

An AXIOM of AXIOMS.
Created:
1