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@bmdrocks21
You like what you see?
I appreciate the clarity.
I'm an Anarchist.
Strangely that isn't reflected in my 8 dimensional score.
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@secularmerlin
When you focus on the conclusion then you aren't actually addressing the arguments at all.
Well stated.
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@Theweakeredge
No.. the study said that we have subconscious processes which decide what we do before we do, which is true, and that we have biases in certain instances, some negative and other positive.
And we then make post-hoc rationalizations (that are motivated by E-MOTION).
We tell ourselves a comforting story that makes us feel like we're in control (specifically our alert conscious mind) in order to keep ourselves calm.
None of this says anything about emotion,
You seek things that make you FEEL GOOD.
You avoid things that make you FEEL BAD.
E-MOTION IS YOUR PRIMARY MOTIVE.
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@Bringerofrain
We aren't using logic on an unconscious level are we? That is a conscious process. The one study cited supports this, because it mentions whe people receive damage to the emotional part of their brain, they become incapable of decision making.
Welcome to thought-club.
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@Theweakeredge
well yeah, my point is that human actions aren't exclusively motivated by emotion, or at the least that would be oversimplifying it.
Would you agree that what we commonly refer to as "intelligent conscious human decision making and planning" is 100% motivated by E-MOTION?
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, emotions are nothing more than chemicals with properties which affect your body. So yes, it actually is logical.
I think I agree with you, but just to be perfectly clear,
When we started this conversation I was using "logic" in the colloquial sense, meaning "conscious (human) planning (intellectual reasoning) to achieve a specific goal".
And now, we're talking about "logic" in a more technical (not specifically human intellect related) sense, like, when a volcano erupts or a star suddenly goes supernova.
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@secularmerlin
This means that LIVING humans caring about [some proximate subset of] each other rather than disregarding other humans [wholesale] and their wellbeing is a logical necessity more than a goal.
It's almost as if simply being alive is evidence that you've taken some actions to maintain your own life (at a minimum) and maintaining your own life requires some level of cooperation with other humans.
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@Theweakeredge
I agree you don't choose your wants, I do have a soft determinism in me, but those wants can be logical in nature.
Are you perhaps suggesting that it is logical for your "survival instincts" to manipulate your activity with E-MOTION?
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@secularmerlin
Tttmttfwtinkm was once responsible for making lighting. Now we have another explanation.
SCIENCE ANSWERS "HOW?"
RELIGION (MYTHOLOGY) ANSWERS "WHY?"
The two questions never actually cross-paths.
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@whiteflame
Agreed on both fronts. However, imperfections in the tests aside, I do think there's some value to taking them, if only to get a vague picture that lacks nuance.
Although I still think I learned more from the political compass than I did from 8 dimensions.
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@Theweakeredge
Achievements versus how achievements are accomplishedEnds versus Means.
More specifically, skilled conquerors often make extremely poor bureaucrats.
That's why most revolutionaries murder their own lieutenants as soon as the old regime falls.
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@Double_R
Blaming the wrong people is probably worse than blaming nobody, wouldn't you agree?Agreed. I fail to understand how this is relevant.
PRAXIS.
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@RationalMadman
Eventually right-wing 'gangs in charge' fall apart due to rivalries and backstabbings.
Achieving dominance can make you feel like the dog who actually caught the car you'd had been chasing all these years.
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@whiteflame
Agreed on both fronts. However, imperfections in the tests aside, I do think there's some value to taking them, if only to get a vague picture that lacks nuance.
100% AGREE.
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@Theweakeredge
of course it can be motivated by emotions, I see no reason why it needs to be motivated by emotions.
The practical manifestation of "survival instinct" is exclusively through our E-MOTIONS.
First, and always first, you (EITHER) want something (OR) want to avoid something.
First you WANT and then you figure out HOW to achieve.
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@Theweakeredge
Well, here are two I definitely agreeOur nation's values should be spread as much as possible. - - RESPECT THE SOVEREIGNTY OF EVERY OTHER NATION ON PLANET EARTH.It is very important to maintain law and order. - - hOWevER, UNJUST LAWS SHOULD NEVER BE ENFORCED.I agree with more, but those are just some examples
I'm always glad when we can agree.
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@Theweakeredge
and I agree with some of them.
Would you be willing to share some examples of our common ground?
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@RationalMadman
You have a black vs white fallacy quite often too, especially with issues regarding privacy.
Please be slightly more specific.
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@Theweakeredge
Yay.... I don't think I've ever seen such biased critique, and I agree with some of them.
My general critique is that the questions are not only ambiguous, but strong disagreement with a statement does not NECESSARILY mean the respondent strongly agrees with the implied OPPOSITE of that statement.
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@whiteflame
each side has limited consideration of the arguments from the other side, and tends to apply similar logic to a broad spate of issues, even when doing so becomes less and less pragmatic.
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@whiteflame
I guess that all depends on what you look at as a more conservative opinion. I guess we could go through the list of questions given here as examples. Off the top of my head from this particular quiz, though, I do see a lot of benefit to private enterprise pursuing research that don't happen in the public sector. I think there are some instances where civil liberties should be curtailed to improve our security, though in some cases I believe we've gone too far in that direction. I'm usually quite supportive of pursuing new technology, but I think there should always be discussions regarding how it's used before rolling it out (and sometimes not roll it out, when the situation calls for it). I am actually pretty generally supportive of gun rights, though that's largely for pragmatic reasons regarding how people tend to respond to the issue of having their guns taken away. While I do think the immigration system has moved way too far in this direction, I do feel that it should remain somewhat restrictive, and don't support efforts to open borders substantially.
In other words, a one-dimensional, even eight different one-dimensional monopoles do not accurately reflect your position.
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@Theweakeredge
As for the claim, the whole humans are only motivated by emotion thing, as it was your central claim I don't get why that's hard for you to understand.
Thank you for clearing that up.
Are you familiar with the concept commonly referred to as, "survival instinct"?
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@Theweakeredge
Perhaps the enticement to do the logic was initially by emotion
I think you're on the right track,
and then died down, perhaps it wasn't there at all.
Can you provide a specific example of such a hypothetical e-motionless human action or activity or goal?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
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@Theweakeredge
You can do something entirely motivated by logic
Please demonstrate an e-motionless human action or activity or goal.
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@Theweakeredge
You have made a claim, I would like you to demonstrate it.
pLEASE BE sLIGHTLY mORE sPECIFIC.
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@Theweakeredge
You see thats what we call a strawman, did you not read my original post, the key to mitigating bias is to realize you have one! That is literally the first step. Then you actively decide as if you did not have that bias, which, is quantifiable - we call it logic.
Bias is not a quantifiable, one dimensional scale with a gigantic "MORE" painted on one end and "LESS" on the other end.
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@Theweakeredge
BIAS is just like an accent. Nobody thinks they have one. And they think other people who have their same accent also don't have an accent.
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@Theweakeredge
What? That seems a tad too conspiratory for me, whenever somebody says objective in regards to being it, it is understood that they mean to mitigate biases or to make a decision in spite of it, it is simply easier and more succinct to say "objective", and because most people aren't this pedantic, they understand what the mods mean.
The misuse of this word demonstrates a foundational misunderstanding of science itself.
The goal of a "neutral 3rd party" is to adopt the shared biases of BOTH interested parties.
Bias is not a quantifiable, one dimensional scale with a gigantic "MORE" painted on one end and "LESS" on the other end.
EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE IS BIASED.
SOME ARE SIMILARLY BIASED AND OTHERS ARE DISSIMILARLY BIASED.
A TRULY "NEUTRAL 3RD PARTY" WOULD NEVER GET INVOLVED IN 1ST AND 2ND PARTY DISPUTES.
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@fauxlaw
it clearly misses what some may consider minor points, which are still valid argument points.
The last time I tried to vote I asked each participant to please let me know what they considered their 3 main arguments.
One participant responded, the other did not.
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@secularmerlin
Nearly as easily as one can fabricate an answer that one cannot be certain of.
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@secularmerlin
No one involved is a nihilist.
Although I wouldn't generally call myself a nihilist (mostly because a nihilist would never communicate with anyone because of the pointlessness of the very idea) I do accept the label in the context of this conversation as a sort of place-holder for some sort of extreme skepticism.
Skepticism is generally advantageous and extreme skepticism is extremely advantageous.
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@secularmerlin
This may mean that we don't get any satisfactory answer. I understand that can be confusing and uncomfortable. How it makes us feel doesn't change the facts though.
It is easy to ask a question that cannot be answered.
In the same way it is easy to fabricate a riddle that cannot be solved.
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@secularmerlin
Even if why is important it is unattainable.
An unknown and or unrevealed and or secret and or endlessly complicated and or incoherent and or unknowable REASON WHY
is functionally indistinguishable from NO REASON WHY.
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@secularmerlin
Let's say I don't know what compels us that doesn't mean I have to accept that some unfalsifiable proposition is the cause and I am absolutely justified in saying that an observable phenomenon like biology is more likely the cause than some unfalsifiable phenomena like morals/punishment/reward/meaning.
Not all who wander are lost.
Not all students are convinced by the first "answer" they find.
It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.
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@secularmerlin
IF my experience is real
Isn't the concept of "REAL" defined by your experience?
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@secularmerlin
I suggested a possible definition that we could potentially agree upon for subjective morality
Perhaps, "best guess morality" would be more acceptable?
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@FLRW
Nothing is both true and false.
An OPINION is neither true nor false.
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@secularmerlin
I want to be very clear. You are not obligated to explain anything to me or to justify your beliefs but I am truly mystified that your axioms, such as you have chosen to share them with me, have any power to guide your decision making process or answer what is morally correct or incorrect even if anything actually is morally correct in the way you are describing.
Well stated.
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@Tarik
Correction, for the sake of discussion I’m not claiming either (no matter how hard you try to force me into that corner) just acknowledging that only one is true.
I appreciate your focus.
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@Tarik
I’m arguing that either objective morality or nihilism is correct question is which one is it?
(IFF) "OBJECTIVE MORALITY" (THEN) is the practical, real-world, functional conclusion "always do what you think is right"?
(IFF) "NIHILISM" (THEN) is the practical, real-world, functional conclusion "always do what you think is right"?
It appears the two proposals are functionally indistinguishable.
It appears the two proposals are functionally indistinguishable.
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@secularmerlin
I am not advocating for anything I can not prove exists I am just being told that I am using the wrong words.
This seems accurate.
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@Double_R
I thought it was more than obvious I was selecting your option "(C)".It wasn't a serious response, and you previously suggested that teaching our kids about the history of racism would serve to promote racism. Seems like a logical inference to me.
Blaming the wrong people is probably worse than blaming nobody, wouldn't you agree?
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@secularmerlin
IF morality/punishment/reward/meaning exist THEN ???
You must be willing to accept any and all consequences of your actions (be willing to suffer for what you believe is right).
IF morality/punishment/reward/meaning don't exist THEN ???
You must discover for yourself what actions are appropriate.
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