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3RU7AL

A member since

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Total posts: 14,582

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Should we defund the police?
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@Conway
Of course many will argue that violence has a relationship with drugs.
Violence has a relationship with very specifically BLACK MARKETS.
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Posted in:
Should we defund the police?
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@Bringerofrain
I agree with all of that, except for perhaps the insinuation that police are overly biased and that the bias they have is a real issue. 
A model police officer is exactly like a model soldier, they are functionally a PUPPET of the chain of command.

The person who follows orders to the best of their ability is NEVER RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS.

An individual is only responsible for their individual actions if they "go off script" or "act in bad faith" or "start thinking for themselves" (in other words, "break the chain of command").

BREAKING THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE CRIME.
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Should we defund the police?
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@fauxlaw
But the analogy fails because police officers are not blind to their policies
A model police officer is exactly like a model soldier, they are functionally a PUPPET of the chain of command.

The person who follows orders to the best of their ability is NEVER RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS.

An individual is only responsible for their individual actions if they "go off script" or "act in bad faith" or "start thinking for themselves" (in other words, "break the chain of command").

BREAKING THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE CRIME.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
I have trouble understanding exactly how our positions differ.
Great point.

It's sort of a hostile version of establishing common ground.

PRAXIS is functionally indistinguishable.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
Your missing a key detail here I BELIEVE there’s evidence
Unless you are arguing that there is evidence and prepared to present it this is a meaningless distinction. 
After a few truly epic conversations with @Athias, I realized @Athias had actually made a truly profound point.

Specifically, "belief" does not require justification.

People quite often believe things they don't understand intellectually.

BELIEF = AXIOM

Even in formal logic, it is acknowledged that AXIOMS do not require any explanation (justification) themselves.

AXIOMS are the starting point of a logical system.

They are the statements which are presumed true without proof, from which all of a logical system is built.

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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
You are maintaining a double standard and that is intellectually dishonest. 
Not necessarily. [**]
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).

Person (a) says, that's not really how this works. You have to show me your table.
This part puts me in stitches.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
How do you justify your beliefs without proof (AKA reward/punishment)?
You'll enjoy this.

It was written by Christians and it explains your argument with logical elegance.

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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
This is the Table Metaphor for a Rational Conversation. (TMFRC)
Phenomenal.
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WTF Just Happened
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@RationalMadman
Also, please make your personally preferred definition of "spam" explicit.
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WTF Just Happened
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@RationalMadman
I've seen a lot of topics posted here that are simply a link (so, not spam).

I'm very eagerly awaiting a fierce debate related to any one of these high quality and thought provoking videos.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Janet Reno didn’t send a SWAT team to Redmond in the middle of the night. But the bottom line is the same: She used the power of government to steal what the people at Microsoft created.
(IFF) mobster corporations want the GOVERNMENT to protect them from EVIL WORKERS UNIONS (THEN) they need to pay for that protection
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
The antitrust laws are fatally flawed.
Do you understand that the OWNERS of Standard Oil and AT&T actually became vastly MORE WEALTHY after their monopolies were broken up?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
it’s time to repeal the antitrust laws and let firms compete in a free marketplace.
BRING BACK STANDARD OIL.

BRING BACK OUR MOBSTER GOD KINGS.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@bmdrocks21
If the GOP would become a populist conservative workers party
Ok, so basically abandon their identity and become a new NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY.

I'd be shocked if anyone calling themselves a "republican" could even utter the words, "POWER TO THE PEOPLE".
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
No, because if it leads to reward and/or avoids punishment then that’s objective proof that it’s worthwhile making it a fact.
Are you trying to say, (IFF) heaven and hell is real (THEN) i care about human wellbeing (?)

Or perhaps,

(IFF) i believe heaven and hell is real (THEN) i care about human wellbeing (?)
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
In the competitive market process, monopolies may sometimes emerge. They usually don’t last long, but if they do it’s not necessarily bad. By monopoly I mean a single seller of a product in a market. In a free market monopolies arise for two reasons: (a) a business drives competitors from the market by being more efficient or providing a better product, or (b) an entrepreneur is the first to offer a new product. In each case, if the monopoly persists it means that provider is more efficient or more innovative than its rivals. When government protects businesses from competition or subsidizes costs, efficiency and innovation suffer. But that, of course, is not the free market. [**]
Before the telegraph was invented, logistical barriers made large scale monopolies practically impossible.

However, small scale, regional monopolies were commonplace.

Anti-competitive practices, enforced by guilds and cartels maintained functional monopolies raising artificial barriers to competition.

Modern companies have exactly the same instincts as they've had from the beginning and technology has greatly extended their spheres of potential influence.

Government simply plays the role of mercenary in their pitched-battle to eliminate small and mid-sized businesses.

Microsoft is a good example of this.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
If your theory that free markets create monopolies and that centrally planned economies eliminate them and foster competition we can look to history to see if that is true. 
That's not my hypothesis.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
So what you are saying is that you are a sociopath?
Even a sociopath understands in practical terms that they cannot survive in isolation.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
Yes, they literally paid politicians to bring in the national guard to prevent unionization at one point, and would have had a lot of competition if not for government intervention. You should read up on their history
Oh yeah.

They certainly strong-armed the government AFTER they already gained an 80% market share.

Vanderbilt, Carnagie, and Rockeafeller built their monopolies in the literal "wild west".
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
Not really, because in the information age, monopolies require government intervention to become and maintain a monopoly.
Have you ever heard of Standard Oil?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
That is too bad, since most people haven't been sold on the idea that they don't need an oligarchy to tell them how to be happy.
Are you kidding?

Everybody knows OLIGARCHY = HAPPINESS
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WTF Just Happened
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Adam Smith said intentions are both predictable and inconsequential.
Too bad Adam Smith never met Edward Bernays.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
I would judge success on a metric such as by measuring happiness levels of the population as a whole. 
This is actually a good idea.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
Monopolies are nearly impossible in a capitalistic society.
I'm sure you meant to say, "Monopolies are INEVITABLE in a capitalistic society".
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
By their results. Currently they are not improving the world. The world is proving but it is in spite of them not because of them
CONSEQUENTIALISM is indistinguishable from witchcraft.

(IFF) you judge someone's intentions by their results (THEN) you won't know if you've made a mistake until it's already too late.
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8values results DART 2021
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@bmdrocks21
Wouldn't those business have monopolies in those 100km areas then? Just like a "company town". 
Yes.

Every city would have their own independent telephone company.

A very small scale monopoly.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Washington D.C. is the larger and more immediate threat to me personally.
And exactly what are you BUYING that is going to fix that "problem"?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Yes because in the grand scheme of things, I don't care about global warming or the pollution of the Pacific Ocean more than I care about my immediate environment.
Forget about "globalwarning" please.

CHINA is a major threat to FREE-SPEECH on planet earth.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
It's not much of an "election" when people don't even know what they're voting for.
Do you shop with your eyes closed?
Do you buy products made in CHINA?

Are you intentionally voting for COMMUNISM?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Every corporate "king" was elected by consumers for producing things monumentally beneficial to society, not by divine right.
It's not much of an "election" when people don't even know what they're voting for.

If I borrow money from my rich friends and I use that money to "sponsor legislation" that basically puts my competition out of business, and then I lock up the markets so I basically have a captive audience, are those customers really "voting" for me?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
If my corporate mob kings were interested in improving society in some way, I'd be the first to offer up my worship.
How would you generally and objectively quantify their purported "interest in improving society in some way"?

Or do you just take their word for it?
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Should we defund the police?
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@Theweakeredge
Yeah... I very much doubt that the market will reveal what is best for the people. 
Well, shitty pay and the constant threat of a violent death will almost exclusively attract a certain caliber of individual.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
If it isn't inherently benevolent than is grey parrot justified in thinking we should be cautious about how much power we give to government? 
Why don't you love your CORPORATE MOBSTER GOD KINGS?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@RationalMadman
Also the opposite of themselves, since unrelenting freedom always becomes survival of the fittest which then becomes tyranny via brute force rule.
Perhaps anarchy already exists and "THE GOVERNMENT" is merely the highest manifestation of organized crime.
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Should we defund the police?
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, and its very bad, thats my point.
Perhaps we should set base pay for patrol officers to $100,000.00 per year in order to allow market-style competition between the landslide of applicants to naturally and inevitably increase cadet quality and competence.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@RationalMadman
Then we have the Ancaps/Libartarians, who was almost as popular as position 2 and on official surveys often out-populate the nationalists because most nationalists tend to be 'in the closet' about their true agenda. The first problem is that Libertarians often deny they are Ancaps, since Ancaps are much more pragmatic and ruthlessly honest about their agenda, while Libertarians sugarcoat the 'dog eat dog' anti-harmony ethos they are trying to foster behind 'freedom for all' mantra. Libertarians tend to be very naive about what happens when you remove restrictions on the rich and/or normal to prey on the poor and/or minorities. Unrelenting Freedom is their top priority.
So, basically THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF BOTH PARTIES.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@RationalMadman
This 'attack first, defend later' media war-front is much more seen in the 'Western world' whereas Eastern cultures operate either via censorship or defensive media, celebrating achievements, speaking well of the intentions of politicians etc.
Well stated.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Double_R
"Conservatives" are PRO-family values, PRO-small business, PRO-efficient government, and paradoxically PRO-gargantuan military.

In stark contrast,

"Liberals" are PRO-family values, PRO-small business, PRO-efficient government, and paradoxically PRO-gargantuan military.
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Posted in:
WTF Just Happened
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Posted in:
Should we defund the police?
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@Theweakeredge
Um no. its a case of a system being unreasonable and training people systemically incorrectly.
An enormous amount of police training is simply "use your best judgement" and the obligatory "try not to screw it up".
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Should we defund the police?
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@Theweakeredge
The fact of the matter is that police officers are bad at deciding when this is and isn't the case. The court and police system allows this to be the case anyways.
This is a perfect example of the utter and unmitigated failure of CONSEQUENTIALISM.
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Should we defund the police?
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@fauxlaw
The system cannot be blamed for individuals' actions, period.
THE PERFECT SCAPE-GOAT.

What you're describing is like a blind intersection.

Automobiles predictably collide in this blind intersection with orchestral regularity.

But the intersection is never redesigned or modified.

Because THE INDIVIDUAL DRIVERS ARE OBVIOUSLY TO BLAME.
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Should we defund the police?
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@Theweakeredge
My understanding of the proposal is to split the funding for the police into at least two groups.

One group would handle traditional CRIME.

Police dispatches are typically about 14% directly related to an actual CRIME, and so, it is proposed that 14% of the current police budget should be allocated to this function.

The remaining 86% of police dispatches are for NON-CRIMINAL calls, and so, it is proposed that 86% of the current police budget should be allocated to peace officers with strong negotiation skills training.
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The Mods
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@FLRW
As a private pilot, when I am making an instrument approach in zero visibility, my decision making is 100% logic and no emotion is involved at all. 
Well, you're probably sitting there because you like receiving money because receiving money makes you FEEL good.

And you're probably doing your best to avoid a botched landing because you predict a botched landing will make you FEEL not-good.
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The Mods
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@Theweakeredge
Nothing that I can think of. The "mind" is just the effects of a brain, electrical impulses and all that. I don't believe in any non-material thing, because material things are the only things that can exist neccessarily. 
Ok, we're very likely on the same page here.

Two brains,

and,

Three brains,

and,

The AMYGDALA HIJACK,
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The Mods
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@Theweakeredge
I could see the argument there, but I wouldn't accept a grandstand there - I'd need to see more proof for specifically emotion.
Do you personally subscribe to any general neuro-anatomical and or metaphysical consciousness theories that I should be aware of?
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8values results DART 2021
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@bmdrocks21
Tradition + Authority + Free-Markets
You like what you see? 👀 
I'm also a traditionalist. - - I believe in the pre-feudal era traditions of local, self-rule (NO KINGS).

I also believe in authority. - - I believe that INDIVIDUAL SOVEREIGNTY is the cornerstone of MORALITY.

I also believe in free markets. - - I believe that no business should expand beyond a 100 kilometer physical radius in order to mitigate monopolization.
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Posted in:
The Mods
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@Theweakeredge
instinct, which has been developed over an evolutionary millennium is what primarily drives our subconscious mind.
You are 100% correct.

hOWevER, THE MECHANISM THAT YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS USES TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR CONSCIOUS MIND IS, wait for it,

E-MOTION.
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