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3RU7AL

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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
And everybody knows NIHILISM killed a bunch of people and makes babies cry.
How do you prove that shouldn’t happen?
Are you asking me to "prove a negative"?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
IF we have no way of demonstrating it or assessing it other than through our own subjective viewpoint of the universe
You can’t demonstrate something that’s subjective, that’s why the latter position is nihilism.
Apparently you also can't demonstrate something that's OBJECTIVE (specifically "objective morality").

Your two options "nihilism" and "objective morality" are functionally indistinguishable (both equally undemonstrated).
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
Nope.....I would call it, assumed morality.
Sounds like nihilism to me.
Would you call it UNVERIFIABLE MORALITY?

Or perhaps, FAITH-BASED MORALITY?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Which one of these TRUMP nominees for Secretary of Labor has a record of actually promoting PRO LABOR policy?
So a pro-labor secretary would be one that hasn't sold a single thing in his life or created a job for anyone? Sounds logical.
Please at least attempt to answer the question before brandishing your next vague RED-HERRING.
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@Greyparrot
ALL BETS ARE OFF.
Lol only in a crony world where people are prevented from competing,
What's your proposed solution to CRONYISM?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
The main objection to Unions is that they pay workers too much and THEREFORE cost the management their extra fat juicy PROFITS.
No, it isn't lol. If you listen to workers actually fucked over by Unions then you know that the one size fits all solution of a Union is bullshit and unfair in a world of diverse individuals.
The main objection to Unions (FROM CORPORATE LOBBYISTS) is that they pay workers too much and THEREFORE cost the executives their extra fat juicy PROFITS.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@bmdrocks21
Quick quiz,

Andy Puzder
Alex Acosta
Patrick Pizzella
Eugene Scalia

Which one of these TRUMP nominees for Secretary of Labor has a record of actually promoting PRO LABOR policy?

Answer key here, [LINK]
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What are conservatives... for?
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@bmdrocks21
All major labor unions backed Joe Biden,
BECAUSE THERE IS NO BETTER OPTION ON THE TABLE AT THE MOMENT.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE NEVER BEEN PRO-LABOR.
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@Bringerofrain
Ok, I agree, not all Unions are created equal.

However, if the Unions were unshackled then they would be able to raise wages.

The main objection to Unions is that they pay workers too much and THEREFORE cost the management their extra fat juicy PROFITS.

If you've got a Union that can't keep wages in line with the market for something like an entry level retail job, then that Union has been all but crushed by Management.

Places like Walmart are notorious for doing a great job of keeping prices low and paying employees a decent wage UNTIL they run all their competition out of town, at which point ALL BETS ARE OFF.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
most workers have outsourced their personal responsibility to save for their future.
Please be slightly more specific.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
I'd prefer not to be fired on a fucking whim.
Then either invest in job security by producing more than you are worth or take all the risks of employment upon yourself.
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@Greyparrot
It's way more common than you would like to accept. Unions subsidize these broken people.
RICH =/= SMART
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Workers make bad choices and take risky jobs all the time. Who would you like to be in charge of your risk-reward analysis?
What's your general theory on the proper function of government?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Is that what you are nostalgic for?
I'm nostalgic for a time in the future when we all collectively and individually forget the word "CONSUMER" and instead replace it with the proper term "WORKER".

That's the shell game they've pulled.

Oh, they say, it's good for "CONSUMERS" they say, it'll lower prices they say.

MEANWHILE ALL THE "WORKERS" ARE GETTING ROYALLY SCREWED.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
Maybe you can be happy locked up in your house while you are content with the "benefits" you earn.
I'd prefer not to be fired on a fucking whim.

I'd prefer not to work in an obviously toxic and or otherwise deadly workspace.

And FUCK BIDEN.

And FUCK LOCKDOWNS.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
The number one reason people get fired is from problems stemming from a deeply held belief that they are way more productive than they actually are. These are the people that end up being subsidized by productive workers in a union instead of being justifiably fired.
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@Greyparrot
If it's your employer's responsibility to look after your long-term welfare, why even care about things like job security or programs to advance in your career then since it's not your responsibility? Another reason why benefits are a scam against the worker.
Are you nostalgic for 1911?

Or perhaps you're nostalgic for 1214?
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@Greyparrot
The number one reason people get fired is from problems stemming from a deeply held belief that they are way more productive than they actually are. These are the people that end up being subsidized by productive workers in a union instead of being justifiably fired.
Ok, are you suggesting that all (or most of) the NON-UNION workers who were wholesale replaced with FOREIGN OUTSOURCED WORKERS were all LAZY ASSHOLES?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Greyparrot
"employee benefits package"
If you had a choice between actual money or benefits you may or may not need....what would you choose?

The fact employers can sell these benefits as an alternative compensation for your labor is proof that unions are bad at bargaining.
EVERY CORPORATION ON PLANET EARTH IS MORE THAN HAPPY TO PAY A SOMEWHAT HIGHER BASE SALARY IF IT GIVES THEM THE FLEXIBILITY TO FIRE ANYONE AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON (OR NO-REASON AT ALL).

Most people are far more focused on short term $$$ and forget about their personal disaster recovery plan until it's way too late.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@bmdrocks21
I think that protectionism reduces the need for labor unions. We had both from early to mid 1900s.

I’m fine with weaker unions if we have tariffs and quotas on imports, personally
STRONG labor unions always lobby in FAVOR of protectionism.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
Do you know what the "employee benefits package" looked like before LABOR UNIONS? - [LINK]
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@Bringerofrain
I worked in a grocery store and they paid me minimum wage because of the ufcw.
Did you join the union?
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@Theweakeredge
IFF) you imagine that "hollywood" has any agenda OTHER than "make as much $$$ as possible" (THEN) you're shockingly naive.
That is perhaps one of the most accurate and meta takes of Hollywood I've seen for a while.

Sure, there might be movie producers who actually want to be progressive, but the movie industry itself is really only letting that trend go through because it sells well in developed countries.  (cough, except for China)
Sure they might make a "progressive" movie now and then, but they're not really the big $$$ MONEY MAKERS.

For example, [LINK]
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What are conservatives... for?
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@bmdrocks21
I'm not entirely sure that social conservatism isn't viable politically,
Please explain.

but I know that the fiscal libertarianism definitely isn't viable.
You could have a properly functioning free market if you unshackled LABOR UNIONS.

Hispanics, the largest minority voting block, are quite religious and socially conservative overall. If the GOP would become a populist conservative workers party, I think they would keep all of the White vote they need while also gaining large portions of  the Hispanic vote.
YOU CAN'T BE PRO-RELIGIOUS AND PRO INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM (unless you completely divorce religion from policy).

THE GOP HAS NEVER BEEN PRO-LABOR.

We operate more or less on a pendulum. The widespread degeneracy we are seeing is very likely to have a strong reaction as people can no longer stomach what our culture has become.
Please explain exactly what you mean by "widespread degeneracy".

Are you in favor of making divorce illegal?

Are you in favor of making alcohol illegal?

Are you in favor of making tattoo parlors illegal?

While Hollywood and the media do everything they can to make conservatism seem "uncool",
(IFF) you imagine that "hollywood" has any agenda OTHER than "make as much $$$ as possible" (THEN) you're shockingly naive.

you have to realize that the GOP has never been the young person's party. It is the party of families, evident as most married people with kids vote for them.
But not because they actually agree with the actual GOP platform or individual politicians (who have become unidimensional cartoons). 

The poor families (under 1 million $$$ annual income) are mostly SINGLE ISSUE voters who choose their PARTY based on goofy moral distortions like "anti-abortion".

But I certainly agree that the GOP has cast aside most of its socially conservative principles in what Patrick Buchanan more or less describes as a neocon insurgency. Neocons are free traders, social liberals, and war hawks  that must be cast out of the party before it can once again become competitive nationally.
I agree.

FRACTIONALIZE THE GOP.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
I seriously want to know because monopolies are bad and I want to pick an ideology that would eliminate the Amazon's of the world
Consider becoming a PRO-LABOR-UNION HIPSTER.
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@Bringerofrain
"Sorry amazon Don't cancel my prime membership"
FUCK AMAZON.
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@Greyparrot
Great example.
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@Bringerofrain
What point are you trying to make? 
Please be slightly more specific.
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@bmdrocks21
But outsourcing is primarily for cheaper labor and unions want high wages,
Do you personally believe we can have BOTH protectionism AND labor unions?
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@Bringerofrain
Perhaps in the future we'll develop forensics capable of determining the trajectory of the bullet, and then the same "credible threat of enforcement" would make a "no shooting into the air" ordinance fully redundant (ALTHOUGH IT MIGHT STILL BE A NOISE VIOLATION).
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@Bringerofrain
No more "driving while intoxicated" infractions?
Correct

Although I certainly understand enforcing preventative laws where it is hard to track down the perpetrator. Such as banning shooting guns in the air on July 4th, just because a bullet that travels several blocks and lands on a girls head, would make it near impossible to actually track down who fired the bullet. 
Fantastic example with the shooting guns in the air.

Perhaps in the future we'll develop forensics capable of determining the trajectory of the bullet, and then the same "credible threat of enforcement" would make a "no shooting into the air" ordinance fully redundant.

I find most laws that are intended to prevent harm are unethical, and on par with the actions taken by government I'm minority report.
MINORITY REPORT.
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@Bringerofrain
My goal is not to approach common ground but to teach and learn from you . 
We can't really begin building a bridge until we have a solid place to set the cornerstone.
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@bmdrocks21
NOBODY DOES THIS BETTER THAN WORKERS UNIONS.
No, they catalyze outsourcing of those jobs. Protectionism makes it much more costly to outsource, so companies keep or create the high-paying jobs here
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

WORKERS UNIONS WOULD HAVE STAMPED OUT "OUTSOURCING" YEARS AGO IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (AT THE BIDDING OF THEIR OWNERS) HADN'T PINNED BOTH THEIR ARMS BEHIND THEIR BACK.
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@Bringerofrain
I guess in theory you could claim they aren't evil despite destroying competition like drug cartels would do by getting the government to be their slaves as opposed to slaves of the people like intended.
We might be approaching a patch of common-ground.
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@Bringerofrain
AND, more significantly, are you in favor of ABOLISHING THE USE OF FINES AS PENALTIES?
Yes, corporations have sent expired medicine overseas for example. Everyone in the chain of command that allowed that to happen should be criminally responsible for every death that resulted from that.  Some fines are just preemptive against potential harms. They should be eliminated and replaced with prison as a real deterrent.
100% THIS.

But as you know I am a consequentialist so if their behavior causes harm, they go to prison, but if the unethical practices lead to more overall good for society, I wouldn't punish them. 
So, are you suggesting that only crimes that produce an ACTUAL REAL-LIFE VICTIM should be enforced?

No more "driving while intoxicated" infractions?
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What are conservatives... for?
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@bmdrocks21
protect high-paying jobs that don’t require a college degree is the way to go.
NOBODY DOES THIS BETTER THAN WORKERS UNIONS.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
My argument (table)
IF there exists any morality/punishment/reward/meaning (leg one) and IF we have no way of demonstrating it or assessing it other than through our own subjective viewpoint of the universe (leg two) THEN we are forced to assess morality/punishment/reward/meaning through our own subjective viewpoint of the universe (leg three)

IF and ONLY IF the premesis are true THEN the conclusion is a logical necessity. 

IF you see any structural issues with my premises THEN please explain exactly what the structural flaw is. 
Truly a work of art.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).
I don’t know what you’re referencing to with this,
Probably when you (indirectly) suggested the only alternative to your table is NIHILISM.

And everybody knows NIHILISM killed a bunch of people and makes babies cry.
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
Did you know that the courts determined that corporations are people? This was done so companies could buy or intimidate politicians through lobbying.
Are you in favor of ABOLISHING CORPORATIONS?

AND, more significantly, are you in favor of ABOLISHING THE USE OF FINES AS PENALTIES?

(IFF) a corporation violates a law (THEN) real, actual EXECUTIVES (not just their disposable underlings) must be physically placed in an actual prison cell (and not "house arrest").
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What are conservatives... for?
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@Bringerofrain
regional utility monopolies
REGIONAL MONOPOLIES ARE NOT NECESSARILY EVIL.
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@Greyparrot
I'm sure you meant to say, "Monopolies are INEVITABLE in a capitalistic society".
I'm sure you meant to say "Monopolies are INEVITABLE in a crony society".
Do you happen to believe that INHERITANCE should be abolished?
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@Bringerofrain
If you told the MOBSTERS of the 1920s that UNREGULATED BLACK MARKETS meant a few small businesses would control everything, they would laugh at you and point to the wild west nature of the UNREGULATED BLACK markets.

Are you perhaps familiar with the historical figure known as AL CAPONE?
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@Bringerofrain
So does regulation create monopolies like history has shown or does the free market create evil monopolies? 
YOUR LOGICAL FALLACY IS - FALSE DICHOTOMY.
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@sadolite
The federal govt should provide for the defense of the nation and building roads and bridges all the rest should go to the states.
100% THIS.
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Why is murder actually wrong.
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@secularmerlin
Murder us actually wrong definitionally. Murder Cosby definition the unlawful killing of a person ON PURPOSE. (Doing it by accident is called manslaughter)

Purposefully killing a person is not always murder and the state reserves the right to define murder. 
100% THIS.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
ATTENTION IS THE ONLY CURRENCY.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
Never presume malice when (bias blindspot) is sufficient.
Good point. Recommended course of action in those instances?
Usually I just keep trying different approaches until my interlocutor abandons the conversation.

And this is excellent because if someone replies to you more than three times, you've really made an impression.

Heck, I count my blessings if I get a single terse or sarcastic response.

When I imagine being on "the other side" of the table, I feel especially lucky when I find a conversation dance partner who exhausts me.

Human minds are well adapted to processing and remembering STORIES.

So, (non-abstract) metaphors, fables, myths, and PERSONAL ANECDOTES are disproportionately effective ways of breaking down intellectual resistance.

Images (that are not specifically text but may include simple text) and sound and COLOR are processed differently than formal blocks of text and can significantly amplify your effectiveness.

If you can make your message humorous, that will increase its chances of survival and propagation by an order of magnitude.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
You are maintaining a double standard and that is intellectually dishonest. 
Not necessarily. [**]
Please elaborate 
Never presume malice when (bias blindspot) is sufficient.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
Specifically, "belief" does not require justification.
No but when your interlocutor insists that yours do without offering any of their own...
100% AGREE.
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Should we defund the police?
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@Conway
Hopefully by now I've also suggested that analyzing the problem of police bias by attempting to ascertain that one race is superior/inferior to another can fail to account for the geographic and socioeconomic distribution of the people within those populations, being divided arbitrarily to a racial construct. 
POLICE ARE FUNCTIONALLY SECURITY GUARDS FOR THE RICH.

THE ONLY "BIAS" IS THINKING THAT CERTAIN SKIN-TONES INDICATE POVERTY.
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