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@Theweakeredge
At the very least, everybody cares about themselves, and if you care about yourself, then you ought to care about others. Its that simple.
Some individuals stop caring for themselves and without interference from others, they die.
All living people who have a conscious (or subconscious) will to live also implicitly care about a minimum number of other living people who have a conscious (or subconscious) will to live.
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@Theweakeredge
is the tendency for people to over-emphasize dispositional, or personality-based explanations for behaviors observed in others while under-emphasizing situational explanations.That is using unsound logic, were or were you not reading my posts?
I agree that using the fundamental attribution error is unsound logic.
HOWEVER, the fundamental attribution error is a fact of the human condition.
We know our individual selves better and we are generally more forgiving of our individual selves.
We know our friends and family better than strangers and we are generally more forgiving of our friends and family.
We know strangers less and are generally less forgiving of strangers.
IN OTHER WORDS, WE JUDGE THE INTENTIONS OF STRANGERS MUCH MORE HARSHLY THAN WE JUDGE OUR OWN INTENTIONS AND WE JUDGE THE INTENTIONS OF OUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.
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@Theweakeredge
No... they aren't.My intentions behind a specific action - something which already happened, and one thought - in contrast, what I'm thinking, is ongoing and changing. You can observe my behavior in the past, before and after the action, you cannot do the same about what I am thinking as I do it. Please stop with these false equivalences.
YOUR CONSCIOUS INTENTION = THOUGHT
THOUGHT = WHAT YOU'RE THINKING
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@Tarik
We care because we are DNA.That’s simply not true, not everybody cares.
Some individuals have "more" "caring/cooperation" instinct and some individuals have "less".
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@Theweakeredge
Mm, our DNA contains evolutionary mutations for surviving, such as cooperation
I agree.
Some individuals have "more" "caring/cooperation" instinct and some individuals have "less".
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@Theweakeredge
You see having a goal to go with a moral premise is an axiom. It is one you accept, I accept, everybody accepts, literally every single moral premise has a "hidden" goal or intention behind it. This is because whenever you make a moral statement you are appealing to some intention or theory of right and wrong, which you can only have if something is the "best" and something is the "worst" that something which is "best" is your goal.
Well stated.
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@Tarik
Asking if "the goal itself" is "good" or "bad" is a category error.
Instead of asking if some action or inaction is "good", it would be more logical to ask, "what is your goal"?
And if your answer is "I don't have a goal" then you simply don't know your own goal (it may be subconscious) or you may be purposefully obscuring your goal (intentions).
ACTION = GOAL
(IFF) YOU TAKE ACTION (THEN) YOU HAVE A GOAL
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@Tarik
No sir, now that’s not how this works, don’t think your slick and can twist the narrative to suit you. Your claiming that right and wrong exists through goals and I’m saying prove it, that’s not the same as telling you to prove something doesn’t exist.
IT'S TAUTOLOGICAL.
(IFF) YOU HAVE AN EXPLICIT OR IMPLICIT GOAL THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE (THEN) ANY ACTION OR INACTION TAKEN TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL = GOOD (AND) ANY ACTION OR INACTION TAKEN TO DELAY OR PRECLUDE THE ACHIEVEMENT OF THAT EXPLICIT OR IMPLICIT GOAL = BAD
Asking if "the goal itself" is "good" or "bad" is a category error.
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@Tarik
Just like how it’s a separate narrative from saying it’s right to create [and or MODIFY] the game of chess.
The game we commonly call "chess" has been played in some very strange variations historically.
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@Theweakeredge
You are making deliberately obstuse claims, did or did you not read my post above, you know, IF you have complete information, and are using sound logic, using anecdotal examples is not proper
THE FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTION ERROR.
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@Theweakeredge
Umm... what I think? Or my intentions for a specific action? Those are two very different things
THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING.
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@Tarik
THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF "SUBJECTIVE MEANING".But the question as to why we care at all still remains.
We care because we are DNA.
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@Theweakeredge
Are you talking about sterotypes? Or first impressions, those are made with incomplete information, and often with unsound logic. You are claiming that it is impossible to do or not at all probable, with a preponderance of information and sound logic it is perfectly possible.
Perhaps you're lucky enough to have a very close friend or family member who can read your intentions like a book.
How accurately do you think a Prosecutor will read your intentions?
How accurately do you think someone who has never met you and doesn't give a shit about you will read your intentions?
How accurately do you think someone who is professionally incentivized to boost their conviction rate as high as possible, how accurately are they going to read YOUR intentions?
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@Double_R
Do you believe that people normally act out their intentions?
I believe most people intend to act out their intentions.
I believe most people intent to make themselves happy and comfortable and also intend to avoid discomfort and embarrassment.
In your personal opinion, what percentage of the human population has managed to manifest their conscious intention to be happy and comfortable?
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@Theweakeredge
Are you talking about sterotypes? Or first impressions, those are made with incomplete information, and often with unsound logic. You are claiming that it is impossible to do or not at all probable, with a preponderance of information and sound logic it is perfectly possible.
But let me ask you,
When other people tell YOU what YOU are thinking, HOW ACCURATE ARE THEY GENERALLY?
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@Double_R
Do you believe 2+2=4 to be a subjective statement?
IT'S A TAUTOLOGY.
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@Theweakeredge
So your counter argument is.... sometimes it is possible that your deduction of their intentions can be wrong? That is.... not a good counter argument to say the least. That is true of anything, as RR said. Please sustain something substantial.
You might think that you can accurately predict someone else's intentions most of the time (it's called the fundamental attribution error).
But let me ask you,
When other people tell YOU what YOU are thinking, HOW ACCURATE ARE THEY GENERALLY?
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@Double_R
Are you trolling? This video is a literal parody of your argument.
This is a perfect example.
You believe it is ridiculous and I believe it is profound.
Just because someone sleeps with you doesn't mean they like you.
Most people are projecting on you and think you remind them of someone else or they think you're something you're not.
It's almost never "really" about "you".
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@ebuc
For example, everyone seems to think they know exactly why I ask the questions that I tend to ask, and most of those "reasons" involve them projecting some level of "insincerity" onto my conscious intentions.
Which can be an amazing strategy, because any protest I might offer magically becomes further "evidence" that can be used to confirm their original suspicion.
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@TheUnderdog
Conservatives care about personal responsibility
BLAME THE LOWEST PERSON IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
and small government,
IN PRINCIPLE ONLY, NEVER IN PRACTICE.
and worldwide freedom(in that order).
AT THE POINT OF A GUN.
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@Double_R
Evidence of action is demonstrable.Evidence of intention is functionally indistinguishable from witchcraftNonsense, and I sincerely doubt you apply this thinking towards any normal function of your every day life. Imagine your girlfriend tells you she plans to have lunch with her ex boyfriend. She gets ready with a full face of makeup, lingerie, expressive perfume, and leaves the house with condoms in her purse after making a reservation at a motel. Will you really equate deducing her intentions with witchcraft?
I've known enough people to realize that you cannot predict what someone consciously intends to do.
Many people use sexual attractiveness and the false promise of intimacy as leverage for any number of potential goals.
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@Tarik
It is apparently SUBJECTIVE because each person VALUES other individuals near them differently than any person VALUES other individuals near them.But why do we value as a whole is the question you’re not answering.
WE VALUE OURSELVES.
AND WE VALUE THE SURVIVAL OF OUR PERSONAL GENETIC CODE.
EVERYTHING ELSE WE THINK WE WANT (emotionally meaningful) SPROUTS FROM OUR SURVIVAL INSTINCT.
COOPERATION WITH OTHER HUMANS THAT DON'T LOOK EXACTLY LIKE US IS A SURVIVAL STRATEGY.
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@Tarik
The term "subjective meaning" is simply a DESCRIPTION of the DEMONSTRABLE FACT.But demonstrable facts aren’t subjective.
FACTS ARE EMOTIONALLY MEANINGLESS.
ONLY OPINIONS ARE EMOTIONALLY MEANINGFUL.
YOU CRY WHEN SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT DIES.
I DO NOT CRY WHEN SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT DIES.
THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF "SUBJECTIVE MEANING".
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@ethang5
When Joseph was kidnapped and sold into slavery, why was he sold in another country?
BECAUSE NATIVE ISRAELITES WERE TREATED DIFFERENTLY THAN FOREIGN SLAVES.
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@ethang5
If a slave wanted to become a servant of Jehovah, could he be refused?
The Torah does not call the Israelites a religion. In fact, the Bible contains no word for religion. Israel is a nation obligated to do what God commands. There is no procedure mentioned in Scripture for joining the Israelites. The concept of conversion, so important to Judaism today, is not mentioned. If it existed, the Torah would have said so. [**]
The Hebrew word used today for religion, dat, means “law” in the Bible, not religion. [**]
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@ethang5
If a Hebrew forced someone to be a slave, would that be against the Bible law at the time?
"17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - NUMBERS 31:17-18
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@ethang5
Could a Hebrew purchase as a slave someone who had been kidnapped into slavery?
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." - LEVITICUS 25:44
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@ethang5
Was slavery (the American type) condemned in the Bible for anyone, selling or buying?
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." - LEVITICUS 25:44
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@K_Michael
If someone wanted to be a slave; only receiving basic amenities in return for total service, then I say all power to them,
That's not a slave.
What you're describing is a ZEALOT.
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@Bringerofrain
This is wired but I used to fantasize about having slaves that were like 12 inches tall. I always wanted little people slaves.
robot (n.)
1923, from English translation of 1920 play "R.U.R." ("Rossum's Universal Robots"), by Karel Capek (1890-1938), from Czech robotnik "forced worker," from robota "forced labor, compulsory service, drudgery," from robotiti "to work, drudge," from an Old Czech source akin to Old Church Slavonic rabota "servitude," from rabu "slave," from Old Slavic *orbu-, from PIE *orbh- "pass from one status to another" (see orphan). The Slavic word thus is a cousin to German Arbeit "work" (Old High German arabeit). According to Rawson the word was popularized by Karel Capek's play, "but was coined by his brother Josef (the two often collaborated), who used it initially in a short story." [**]
1923, from English translation of 1920 play "R.U.R." ("Rossum's Universal Robots"), by Karel Capek (1890-1938), from Czech robotnik "forced worker," from robota "forced labor, compulsory service, drudgery," from robotiti "to work, drudge," from an Old Czech source akin to Old Church Slavonic rabota "servitude," from rabu "slave," from Old Slavic *orbu-, from PIE *orbh- "pass from one status to another" (see orphan). The Slavic word thus is a cousin to German Arbeit "work" (Old High German arabeit). According to Rawson the word was popularized by Karel Capek's play, "but was coined by his brother Josef (the two often collaborated), who used it initially in a short story." [**]
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@Double_R
Evidence of action is demonstrable.
Evidence of intention is functionally indistinguishable from witchcraft.
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@Greyparrot
Wicker V Filburn allows the government to create indentured servants with the full force of the Army behind them by forcing individual people to produce what the government says you must produce and buy what the government says you must buy. The end of the American Dream.
NOT TO MENTION "EMERGENCY" ECONOMIC POWERS.
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@Tarik
I am genuinely and sincerely impressed with your tenacity.
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@Tarik
IF objective meaning cannot be demonstrated BUT humans caring for and about one another can THEN it would seem that humans caring for and about each other IS NOT contingent on objective meaning.Okay but it’s not contingent on subjective meaning either, and you’ve yet to demonstrate what that even is.
This bridge looks promising.
Humans caring for and about each other is a DEMONSTRABLE FACT that is not "contingent" on anything.
The term "subjective meaning" is simply a DESCRIPTION of the DEMONSTRABLE FACT.
It is apparently SUBJECTIVE because each person VALUES other individuals near them differently than any person VALUES other individuals near them.
For example, I value my personal friends and family members MORE than you value MY personal friends and family members.
And YOU value YOUR personal friends and family members MORE than I value YOUR personal friends and family members.
One way to describe this generally INDISPUTABLE FACT is "subjective meaning" (OR) "subjective value" (OR) "subjective morality".
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@Tarik
Are you suggesting that it can't be true because it can't be demonstrated?Ultimately yes
Ok, so why does one table ("subjective morality") demand rejection because of a lack of demonstration,
And simultaneously the other table ("objective morality") demand acceptance because of a lack of demonstration?
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@secularmerlin
IF objective meaning cannot be demonstrated BUT humans caring for and about one another can THEN it would seem that humans caring for and about each other IS NOT contingent on [DEMONSTRATION OR EVIDENCE OF] objective meaning.
maybe?
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@Greyparrot
"if you cannot say no, then you do not have a right"
I'm afraid that rights are mostly granted by mob democracy. A man's right to life and liberty can be taken away by any group larger, better armed and/or better organized than his. The mechanism is and always has been concerned citizens fighting against the status quo for the betterment of the status quo.
In effect, this is somewhat true. Though, I wouldn't necessarily characterize them as "rights" in this context given that, as you pointed out, they can be taken away. "Legal privileges" would be more apropos. With that said, my arguments will always be in service to the "ideals" or rights. If we conform or concede the ideal in order to be, as I often see in response, "more practical," then there is no point to rights.
It's simply contracting with mobsters for temporary periods of survival.
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Then why do you keep asking for proof of "subjective morality" (which you define as synonymous with "nihilism")?Did I? Do you have a quote?
IF we have no way of demonstrating it or assessing it other than through our own subjective viewpoint of the universeYou can’t demonstrate something that’s subjective, that’s why the latter position is nihilism.
Are you suggesting that it can't be true because it can't be demonstrated?
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@Greyparrot
YES. IF THE GRAIN NEVER CROSSES STATE LINES IT IS OBVIOUSLY THE EXCLUSIVE JURISDICTION OF THE STATE IN WHICH IT WAS GROWN. [**]
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@Greyparrot
it was specifically aimed at preventing the states from enacting impediments to the free flow of “commerce” such as tariffs, quotas and taxes.
I AGREE.
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@Greyparrot
Which one of TRUMP'S labor nominees do you consider PRO-LABOR?Any one of them that have created a job is pro-labor.
Is this the extent of your support for your claim that LABOR UNIONS should support TRUMP instead of BIDEN?
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@Tarik
Are you asking me to "prove a negative"?Pardon me, how do you prove that should be avoided?
People will die and babies will cry but how much and or how little and or for how long and or at what rate has nothing to do with whether or not somebody believes in heaven and or hell (which is your definition of "objective morality" which is your definition of "the opposite" of "nihilism").
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@Tarik
They are functionally and definitionally indistinguishable.Even if that is true we were talking about zedvictor4’s perspective not mine and he doesn’t have faith BTW.
I'm quite certain @zedvictor4 has FAITH in human survival instinct (which is the foundation of human cooperation incentives which is also known as "morality").
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@Greyparrot
Please at least attempt to answer the question before brandishing your next vague RED-HERRING.Ok well then explain why whenever and where ever competition is allowed to exist that the Unionized industries consistently go bankrupt without government subsidies. It's precisely because the Union has both no incentive mechanism for attracting workers that produce more than the communist collectively bargained wage and also no mechanism for penalizing workers that do not produce at the level of the collective wage.Adam Smith said an economy without incentives is an economy of fiat.
This is all very interesting and I'd love to dive into this pile of bald assertions and pickled RED-HERRINGS, but none of this answers the question.
Which one of TRUMP'S labor nominees do you consider PRO-LABOR?
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@Greyparrot
Doesn't organized crime thrive in unregulated markets?It does thrive when there is nothing to regulate the government once the Constitutional regulations are shredded.
What "Constitutional regulations" are you in favor of?
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@Greyparrot
What's your proposed solution to CRONYISM?Reduce organized crime by reducing the government's ability to interfere with economics as the founding fathers intended.
Doesn't organized crime thrive in unregulated markets?
Isn't that the very definition of A BLACK MARKET?
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@Tarik
You don’t have to demonstrate nihilism because it’s a negative position.
Then why do you keep asking for proof of "subjective morality" (which you define as synonymous with "nihilism")?
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@Tarik
Would you call it UNVERIFIABLE MORALITY?Or perhaps, FAITH-BASED MORALITY?Those are two opposite things.
They are functionally and definitionally indistinguishable.
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