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3RU7AL

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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
False. You can actually pretty easily infer if such evidence was false or true. 
How exactly do you "infer" this?
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Your entire thing about what you can learn from somebody's taxes... it does not equate sovereignty to privacy, it is a red herring.
Guess what happens when your tax records are audited?

ALL OF YOUR BANK AND CREDIT CARD RECORDS ARE LAID BARE.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Do you understand that VIDEO EVIDENCE CAN BE FAKED?

The "evidence" you describe in your initial example is NOT CONCLUSIVE PROOF.
Yes, they can be, but that does mean that they are. In fact, the majority are conclusive, in fact - this is assuming that the video is credible, and the footage would be security.  
It is impossible for you personally to prove the footage is authentic.

Your hypothetical cannot contain magic knowledge.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
No. I think ethical obligation is more important, I would not be so arrogant to assign something the most important.
How is a fundamental right to privacy in conflict with your ethical obligation?

Isn't it your ethical obligation to protect your own privacy and by extension the privacy of every individual sovereign human being?
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
IF there is conclusive footage of Dwayne stealing, as I supposed, THEN it is something which is PROVEN to be true. That is what a fact is.
Do you understand that VIDEO EVIDENCE CAN BE FAKED?

The "evidence" you describe in your initial example is NOT CONCLUSIVE PROOF.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
I would ask for a demonstration of this principle, if this is the case, there should be hard data for it. I also don't see how this defeats the ethical obligation of not supporting something which is immoral.
I have literally no idea what you're referring to.

Please be slightly more specific.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
...So? What does that matter? Let me shut this down, this is a red herring and has nothing to do with my objection. Privacy does not equate to sovereignty it CAN, but it is NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE, in fact, it is not usually the case. 
Please explain.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
You have made a claim, demonstrate it
Make a counter claim.

What do you think is "most important"?

It doesn't even have to be a very strong counter claim.

DO YOU PERHAPS BELIEVE THAT SECURITY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN PRIVACY?
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Financial records, specifically spending patterns over time and specific dollar amounts can reveal any number of potentially embarrassing personal details.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Neither of these addresses my points, my first point said, "TALK ABOUT IT" as in, you should spread the FACT that this person had done something against the law, regardless of if the action was right or wrong.  Explain what the "Liar's Dividend" is, and why it is relevant.
(1) simply viewing a video clip of something does not make it a FACT.

(2) The LIAR'S DIVIDEND is when someone spreads a story (often shocking or otherwise attention-grabbing) regardless of their intention at the time, IFF the story later turns out to be FALSE, the retraction NEVER gets the same attention as the initial LIE.  This leaves the majority of people who read the original story with the impression that it was TRUE and those people continue to spread that story and may even openly disbelieve the retraction.

The difference between the number of people who believed the initial story and the number of people who even saw the retraction is THE LIAR'S DIVIDEND.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Because I am not claiming privacy does not matter, I am unconvinced that it is the most important. 
Please present some semblance of an attempt at a counter argument.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Just because you have the financial reports of somebody's taxes, that does not mean you have control of their finances.
You might be shocked to know what someone can figure out about you simply by carefully examining your financial records. [FOR EXAMPLE]
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Regardless if people know of my secrets I am still free to choose what I want to do with those things.
Why don't we make everyone's vote public?

Just making everyone's votes public wouldn't change anyone's votes would it?
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
IF somebody does a crime, AND that crime is easily proven, THEN you should report it and talk about it
I agree.  You should very discreetly report it to the police and only to the police.

IF that thing is proven untrue, then take back that claim, and then you have a responsibility to discredit the previous notion, but that is IF AND ONLY IF, that claim has been proven untrue.
Are you perhaps familiar with the concept of THE LIAR'S DIVIDEND?
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
And are you claiming that EVERY aspect of china is GOOD? I wouldn't take you for a generalized.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
demonstrate the claim that "Pricay is the most important".
WITHOUT PRIVACY YOU HAVE NO AUTONOMY.

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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Do you not know what deduction is? How do you prove somebody had malice of forethought, its the same concept, you seem awfully unfamiliar with case law to be discussing with this much confidence
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO READ PEOPLE'S MINDS.

DOUBLY SO RETROACTIVELY.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
I'm suggesting that Dwayne Johnson could probably hire a raft of private investigators to dig up any unsavory information about you personally and or about your family and or about your friends.

You are very likely to end up in court, one way or another, if you attempt to punch above your weight-class.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
And more, privacy... isn't the most important thing... what would be more important is to warn people who are supporting that person that it is plausible that that person has done a bad thing... because you usually shouldn't support people who do bad things. I suppose you could make pragmatic arguments against it, but they wouldn't be consistent.
Specifically dissuading supporters is a very direct demonstration of "intent to bring down their reputation".

And more, privacy... IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

because you usually shouldn't support people who do bad things.
you're kidding me, right?

have you ever purchased a product that happened to be stamped, "made in china"?
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
I did.... you have to INTEND to bring down his reputation in order to be charged for Libel or Slander... do you not know how it works? 
How exactly does someone PROVE they did NOT intend to "bring down his reputation"?

actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
the person claiming the thing to be untrue has to demonstrate that it is untrue before the case even be tried.
Are you familiar with the concept of SLAPP Suits
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
The entire point of the example would be to point out that there is evidence of such a claim
EVIDENCE =/= PROOF
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
 In the court of law, the responsibility of the burden of proof falls onto the person bringing it to court.
Are you suggesting that Dwayne Johnson must PROVE THEIR OWN INNOCENCE before a judge will allow their libel case against you to go to trial?
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Morality - Is Atheism More Reasonable than Theism?
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@Amoranemix
Does that imply knowledge can be false or it does it mean that the false knowledge was not really knowledge ?
I've never understood the implicit utility of equating KNOWLEDGE with TRUTH.

KNOWLEDGE = DATA

TRUTH = FACTS
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The great atheist deception
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@FLRW
I'm not fully convinced that "spacetime and its parts are fundamental constituents of reality".

They are only APPARENTLY "fundamental constituents of reality". [**]
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Also, illegal actions such as libel or slander, require INTENT, if you are trying to argue against Donald Trump being criticized, don't because again - a preponderance of the evidence.
Please explain.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Libel - "a published false statement [not necessarily an accusation of crime] that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation."
Would it be illegal to say: "Dwayne Johnson is a thief," - - the answer is "YES".

(IFF) Dwayne Johnson was not already legally convicted of the crime you accused them of (THEN) you could very easily be dragged into court and forced to prove the legitimacy of the "evidence" (costing you thousands, if not millions of dollars in court fees regardless of whether or not you "win").

Slander - "The action or crime of making a false spoken statement [not necessarily an accusation of crime] damaging to a person's reputation."
Would it be illegal to say: "Dwayne Johnson is a thief," - - the answer is "YES".

(IFF) Dwayne Johnson was not already legally convicted of the crime you accused them of (THEN) you could very easily be dragged into court and forced to prove the legitimacy of the "evidence" (costing you thousands, if not millions of dollars in court fees regardless of whether or not you "win").

Now imagine trying to prove a claim like, "George W. Bush doesn't care about black people".

Do you personally believe you could prove this statement is true in a court of law?
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
I don't have to agree with the moral correctness of an action  tocapitulate with the demands of a mafia boss because I fear he will break my legs. I also do not have to capitulate. I am still an independent actor. Inserting a god into the role of the mafia boss and replacing the leg breaking with whatever you consider punishment does not in any way resolve these issues. Punishment is immaterial in determining my personal moral intuition REGARDLESS of what I was threatened with and also REGARDLESS of my capitulation under duress. 
Great point.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
How can "objective meaning" be conditional?
OBJECTIVE = UNCONDITIONAL
OBJECTIVE = ALWAYS THE SAME REGARDLESS OF THE SITUATION

SUBJECTIVE = CONDITIONAL
SUBJECTIVE = ALMOST NEVER THE SAME BECAUSE IT DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFIC SITUATION
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
Or the one that’s the last man standing,
No animal can survive in isolation.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
That’s what I’m asking you, you’re the one asking the nonspecific question.
Are you trying to hint at [POST#286] ?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
What do you mean?
Please be slightly more specific.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
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@Theweakeredge
Question: IF somebody like; let's use Dwayne Johnson, just as an example; allegedly stole from a store. The video was leaked to the internet somehow and we know pretty reliably that Dwayne stole, would it be illegal to say: "Dwayne Johnson is a thief,"?
HAVE YOU PERSONALLY AUTHENTICATED THE OBVIOUSLY FAKE VIDEO?

You should always report alleged crimes to the police and only to the police.

You should never make public accusations.

And anonymous crime reports are no longer accepted, so be prepared to fill out some forms and face the person you're accusing, because they're required by law to know your name and home address.
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
Your public reputation is your most valuable asset.

So there should be laws that keep people from saying mean things about each other in public.

Especially famous people.

Nobody should be able to use a photograph of you or talk about you ("use your name or your corporation's name as click-bait") WITHOUT YOUR EXPRESS CONSENT.

Celebrities and other public figures are constantly being accused of "not caring" about things like "the environment" and or "justice" and the like.

Celebrities and other public figures are constantly being accused of totally false "crimes" that are just made up by people who are obviously jealous of them, I mean if you were super rich and famous would you ever commit any crimes? 

Of course not!!


These kinds of claims are LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.

Caring about the "right" or "wrong" things is not a crime yet.

And since it is an indisputable fact that people don't know the inner thoughts (actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea) of the people they hate, they should not be allowed to speak publicly on the matter without facing steep fines and penalties.

I mean, how can we ever have truly "free-speech" if these idiots are allowed to just say whatever the heck they want??
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REPORTING AN ALLEGED CRIME IS LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL
Your public reputation is your most valuable asset.

So there should be laws that keep people from saying mean things about each other in public.

Especially famous people.

Nobody should be able to use a photograph of you or talk about you ("use your name or your corporation's name as click-bait") WITHOUT YOUR EXPRESS CONSENT.

Celebrities and other public figures are constantly being accused of "not caring" about things like "the environment" and or "justice" and the like.

These kinds of claims are LIBELOUS SLANDER AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.

Caring about the "right" or "wrong" things is not a crime yet.

And since it is an indisputable fact that people don't know the inner thoughts (actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea) of the people they hate, they should not be allowed to speak publicly on the matter without facing steep fines and penalties.
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The great atheist deception
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@zedvictor4
"EGO" .....Is your expectancy, that everyone else should know what you are going on about.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
the fittest social animals are those that work and cooperate with others the best.
Great point.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
Punishment is immaterial 
Especially unverifiable punishment.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
Lastly it’s easy to say the person you’ll be under circumstances that you already know but most likely if the hypothetical scenario were true it would be very difficult to maintain your code of conduct because people tend to be products of their environment and if your environment is wilding out then most likely sooner or later you will too because it’s survival of the fittest, kill or be killed and it’s a lot more difficult to care for people that want your head as opposed to people who reciprocate your feelings for them.
Well stated.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
According to the hypothetical situation where things that are objectively harmful to all humans like theft, murder and dishonesty are also objectively morally correct I am perfectly happy to be an objectively morally incorrect even if that does make me a monster. I just can't choose to not care about humans. That is not under my control. 
If people follow you for REWARD then you have mercenaries.

If people follow you for fear of PUNISHMENT then you have slaves.

If people follow you because they want to EMULATE you then you have zealots.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
I think if you examine your (subjective personal opinions about) morality you will disagree with any god(s) whose moral pronouncements differ too drastically from your personal moral intuition.
You validate god($).

Did you choose to follow your god($)?

Why did you choose to follow your god($)?

Is it perhaps because "it just felt right"?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
meaningfulness is objective.
I said this ONLY IF we’re rewarded or punished in some capacity, if we’re not then there is no meaning. But if you still want the demonstration if the former were true here it is.

It MEANS if you live this way you’ll be punished and if you live another you’ll be rewarded therefore you should live by the latter.
How can "objective meaning" be conditional?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Reece101
Feel free to present your own personally preferred definition of NIHILISM at your leisure.
I just want to know why you’re set on redefining the word.
I'm STEEL-MANNING @Tarik.
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@Tarik
Normally, both participants are expected to present arguments that support their claims.
What claim did make that I didn’t support?
Unsupported claim: meaningfulness is objective.
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@secularmerlin
Even if there is some god(s) only I can determine what I personally find meaningful. Even if some higher power has an opinion of the subject I am under no obligation to adopt their standards and in fact will be quite unable to if they disagree with my personal opinion about what has meaning and what that meaning is.
Great point.

So, imagine you die and you find yourself in NARAKA.

And you ask whoever's in charge, "why am I here"?

And they explain that thousands of years ago, YAMA codified some perfectly objective LAWS for humans to obey.

And now you are being judged by those perfectly objective LAWS.

It's all very clear and accessible to everyone with an internet connection.

Kumbhipaka (cooked in a pot): A person who cooks beasts and birds alive is cooked alive in boiling oil by Yamadutas here, for as many years as there were hairs and or feathers on the bodies of their animal victims. [**]

YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Reece101
(IFF) NIHILISM = SUBJECTIVE AXIOLOGY (AND)
(IFF) GOD = OMNIPOTENT OMNISCIENT OMNIPRESENT CREATOR (AND)
(IFF) GOD ALONE DETERMINES OBJECTIVE AXIOLOGY (AND)
(IFF) GOD DOES NOT MAKE OBJECTIVE AXIOLOGY OBVIOUS TO HUMANS (AND)
(IFF) HUMANS SINCERELY DISAGREE ABOUT AXIOLOGY (THEN) ALL HUMANS ARE DE FACTO NIHILISTS
Why use the word nihilism? You’re having to almost redefine it to mean its opposite. 
Feel free to present your own personally preferred definition of NIHILISM at your leisure.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
only I can determine what I personally find meaningful.
Then you’re gonna have to prove that meaning is personal, otherwise you leave me no choice but to reject your argument.
Normally, both participants are expected to present arguments that support their claims.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Reece101
I presented a rigorously defined conditional statement.
In which it exists inside a vacuum. 
(IFF) NIHILISM = SUBJECTIVE AXIOLOGY (AND)
(IFF) GOD = OMNIPOTENT OMNISCIENT OMNIPRESENT CREATOR (AND)
(IFF) GOD ALONE DETERMINES OBJECTIVE AXIOLOGY (AND)
(IFF) GOD DOES NOT MAKE OBJECTIVE AXIOLOGY OBVIOUS TO HUMANS (AND)
(IFF) HUMANS SINCERELY DISAGREE ABOUT AXIOLOGY (THEN) ALL HUMANS ARE DE FACTO NIHILISTS
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Our most basic axioms
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@Reece101
Please be slightly more specific.
You created a false dilemma.
I presented a rigorously defined conditional statement.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
personally find meaningful
Meaning isn’t personal.
Ok.

I think I've detected our core conflict.
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