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@Reece101
Do you want to reply to the substance of my argument or not?
Please be slightly more specific.
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@fauxlaw
I refer you to my response to Reece101. The weight of the evidence opposing your redicule ought to tell you that your opinion may not be commonly held.
Yeah, I'm going to say there is an extremely obvious lack of incentive to vote.
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@Tarik
ONLY you can decide what is meaningful to you and ONLY I can decide what is meaningful to me.Prove it.
What you personally find meaningful is a matter of OPINION.
What I personally find meaningful is a matter of OPINION.
I can prove that you find some things personally meaningful that I personally find meaningless.
I can prove that I find some things personally meaningful that you personally find meaningless.
It only takes one example to falsify the claim, "we both agree 100% on the meaningfulness of all things" (please either agree or disagree with this claim).
You find your belief in a god meaningful.
I find my belief in a god meaningless.
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@Tarik
Are you suggesting that even if I have no idea if a specific action will be rewarded or punished, it is still meaningful?Meaning isn’t predicated on one’s ignorance.Is that a "YES"?I don’t know but it probably depends on the action.
What if I live my entire life just trying my very best to be a good person but I never believe in ghosts or angels or heaven?
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@Tarik
Are you suggesting that even if I have no idea if a specific action will be rewarded or punished, it is still meaningful?Meaning isn’t predicated on one’s ignorance.
Is that a "YES"?
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@fauxlaw
My angst is with the rest of you who do not bother to vote.
3 votes.
3 removals.
Requested clarity on voting rules.
Voting rules are ridiculously vague.
Conclusion: VOTING IS A POINTLESS WASTE OF TIME.
Solution: SELF-MODERATED DEBATES.
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@Tarik
Please tell me what is meaningful.You quoted the answer already.
Are you suggesting that even if I have no idea if a specific action will be rewarded or punished, it is still meaningful?
Are you suggesting it's meaningful even if nobody knows what that meaning is (good or bad)?
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@Theweakeredge
well yes, but it could also be the case that I force you to show me your phone,
How is your demand for my personal property (and or information) not a violation of my sovereignty?
as I said, they can be linked, but they aren't necessarily.
Can you violate one without violating the other?
Also... no that isn't really a bodily autonomy violation. If I just see you naked, a breach of your privacy not your autonomy,
Doesn't my bodily autonomy extend to protect information about my body?
you would have to insert things as you have for it to be so, and that wasn't the original analogy.
You seem to have a frighteningly narrow view of "bodily autonomy".
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@Soluminsanis
"I would never ask anyone, be he ever so high or so low, to act against his conscience."
- Sir Thomas More
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@Soluminsanis
Passion and tenacity.
I was particularly impressed with the church leaders who refused to swear an oath of allegiance to Henry the VIII, even in the face of grotesque torture.
Roman Catholics who refused to take the Oath of Supremacy were indicted for treason on charges of praemunire. For example, Sir Thomas More opposed the King's separation from the Roman Catholic Church in the English Reformation and refused to accept him as Supreme Head of the Church of England, a title which had been given by parliament through the Act of Supremacy of 1534. He was imprisoned in 1534 for his refusal to take the oath, because the act discredited Papal Authority, and his refusal to accept the annulment of Henry’s marriage to Catherine of Aragon. In 1535, he was tried for treason, convicted on perjured testimony, and beheaded.[3][4] [**]
There was an excellent scene in the television show "The Tudors" where a monk was being dragged into the king's torture chamber was given one last chance to sign the oath and he laughed out loud and said, "You cannot threaten a true believer who knows to their core that no matter how much pain and mutilation you inflict on this earthly body it will only enhance the glory that awaits me in heaven".
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@fauxlaw
Some are worthy of trust and will not deceive you.
How do I detect the ones who are "worthy of trust and will not deceive"?
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@secularmerlin
theism and nihilism are not the only possible positions (atheist Buddhists for example) nor are they mutually exclusive (a deists for example might believe in a god but not in intrinsic meaning and value) so this is in all ways a false dichotomy.
Great point.
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@Theweakeredge
Yay... false equivalences.
Please be slightly more specific.
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@Theweakeredge
Um... not necessarily true - I could see you naked and that would not entail any forfeit of your anatomical rights. I am not saying that the right to privacy isn't important, I'm saying it isn't necessarily linked to bodily autonomy.
Did you force me to take my clothes off in front of you?
That would seem to be a gross violation of BOTH my personal (bodily) privacy and my personal (bodily) sovereignty.
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@Reece101
Nihilism exists in contrast with the concept of god(s).Maybe try to think outside the box.
Please explain how the concept of god(s) in any way contradict "nihilism".
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@Theweakeredge
On a surface level maybe.
If I have no bodily privacy (medical privacy) then I have no bodily sovereignty (bodily autonomy).
Nobody needs to know my genetic information.
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@secularmerlin
"I'm not trying to say there is a god but how do you find meaning without one"
It's called "affirming the consequent" or "motivated reasoning" or "poisoning the well".
(IFF) NIHILISM = NOT-THEISM (AND)
(IFF) NIHILISM = UNACCEPTABLE AND MUST BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS (THEN) THEISM = TRUE
THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE (TINA).
Unfortunately, even if we accept this without any scrutiny whatsoever, we're still completely lost.
WHAT DOES YOUR GOD WANT ME TO DO?
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@Tarik
I don't find punishment or reward meaningfull at all.It’s not up to you to decide what is and isn’t meaningful.
Please tell me what is meaningful.
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@Reece101
There is no "great conspiracy" the world is exactly as you think it is.
There are no "secret truth" everything is exactly as you think it is.
Don't bother asking anyone for "answers".
Don't waste your time cataloging "patterns".
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@Tarik
I think I’m a flying eagle therefore I am a flying eagle.
Nigeria's national team image has undergone much evolution throughout its history. Prior to independence, they were called the Red Devils due to their red topped kits.[16] The name was changed to the Green Eagles after independence in reference to the Nigerian state flag as well as the eagle which adorns the country's coat of arms. There had been deliberations for a while heading to the 1988 Africa Cup of Nations, where they were still called the Green Eagles, but at a reception after the tournament, the team's name was officially changed to the "Super Eagles".[17][18] Today, only the senior men's national team uses the nickname. The women's national team is called the "Super Falcons", and Nigeria's underage male teams are nicknamed the "Flying Eagles" & the "Golden Eaglets". [**]
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@Theweakeredge
Furthermore, a right to bodily autonomy is very different from the right to privacy.
The two would seem to be integrally linked.
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@zedvictor4
What actually is belief?
A collection of subjectively actionable data.
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@zedvictor4
Something from absolute nothing, is the toughie that exceeds all explanation.
It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.
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@Dr.Franklin
and how does this connect to your point?
You asked me how much effort Balaam demonstrated.
I answered your question.
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@fauxlaw
No predictions involved other than several men of history I trust implicitly
I lack implicit trust in men.
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@Stephen
“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
This seems like a perfectly reasonable request for evidence.
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@Tarik
I have to live in this universe whether meaning and morality as you define them exist or not right?Not if you off yourself and get punished for it in the afterlife.
HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING,
If I murder innocent people, I will burn forever in an eternal fire pit.
However, the innocent people I kill will go straight to heaven and experience eternal bliss.
So, it's almost like I'm handing out free all expense paid trips to the best possible holiday destination in the universe.
And even though I will undoubtedly suffer a horrifying fate myself, I think it'd be worth it to bring eternal happiness to so many.
Shouldn't I sacrifice my own eternal happiness to bring eternal happiness to as many people as I possibly can?
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@Tarik
considering size is limitless
Well, there is sort of a hard upper limit.
For example, if you made a horse big enough, it would collapse under its own weight and become "the planet formerly known as a horse".
If you kept making it bigger, eventually it would collapse into "the black-hole formerly known as planet horse".
And then it would very slowly evaporate as the cosmos approached zero kelvin.
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@secularmerlin
Actually it's super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Remember money? Yeah, that thing you like?
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@Tarik
It’s fundamentally impossible to find meaning in something that’s inherently meaningless and that’s a fact.
Some scientists spend most of their lives sampling and cataloging elephant dung.
This gives their lives meaning.
I can't think of anything more meaningless (to me) than elephant dung.
SOME PEOPLE VALUE THINGS THAT YOU DON'T VALUE.
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@Tarik
You don’t need to know the “form” to know your being rewarded or punished, and how one goes about following the rules to receive each isn’t my argument, it’s just what YOU’RE concerned with.
Reward is meaningless if the target behavior is UNDEFINED.
Punishment is meaningless if the target misbehavior is UNDEFINED.
You can tell me all day and all night that your GOD will punish the wicked and reward the angelic.
But this information is MEANINGLESS to me if you can't tell me specifically WHAT THE HECK I'M SUPPOSED TO DO ABOUT IT.
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@Dr.Franklin
Balak, the king of Moab, is frightened by reports of the approaching Israelites and decides to hire Balaam to pronounce a curse upon Israel so that he will be able to defeat them in war. Ancient Near Eastern kings often expected prophets and diviners to pronounce such maledictions upon their foes before battle, and Balaam was apparently known as a famous seer or prophet. God (here called “Elohim”) appears several times to Balaam in a dream and forbids him to curse Israel. Eventually, however, the deity grants Balaam permission to accept Balak’s assignment. What follows is the well-known scene of a talking donkey and a messenger from Yahweh blocking Balaam on his way to proclaim the curse. Finally, Balaam arrives at his destination, yet he ends up arousing the indignation of the Moabite king by repeatedly pronouncing upon Israel several lengthy, beautifully formulated poetic blessings.
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@Dr.Franklin
if you put in no effort to know Jesus, why should he reach out to you?
How much effort did Balaam demonstrate?
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@Stephen
Why isn’t Jesus willing to show the disbelievers today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be treated any different from Thomas –a disciple - and Paul a disbelieving persecutor and murderer of early Christians?
Great question.
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@fauxlaw
Some "true believers" may call themselves such, but, if they don't follow the path outlined, are they, really? Faith is much more than merely saying "Jesus! I believe!" One's actions, not their words, demonstrate, their faith, or lack of it even when claimed.
So, would you say that "true-true believers" will always divine the same answer?
And the only way to detect the real "true-true believer" is to wait for confirmation of their predictions?
Are real "true-true believers" almost never mistaken?
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@secularmerlin
Can you prove that Odin doesn't exist and that you must be more violent in order to be rewarded?
Pascal's Mugging.
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@fauxlaw
Therefore, what action is needed on your part?
It would seem to warrant some defensive strategy.
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@fauxlaw
1. Ask in faith2. Be sincere3. Have real intent to know.4. If your query is a sincere desire to know, the truth will be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.5. By that power, the truth of all things may be known.
What conflict resolution mechanism do you rely on if two or more "true believers" use this method and divine conflicting information?
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@Tarik
I believe they’ll be punished someway somehow if they’re not sorry.
Does this mean we don't need any law enforcement because everyone is guaranteed to "get what they deserve"?
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@Greyparrot
They would also be a lot less evil if they were not allowed to purchase the ability to write the regulations that destroy competition and make hedge fund investors rich through their well paid Washington DC lobbies.
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@secularmerlin
Please take your own advice here, if you’re not going to demonstrate your definition of ethics then you can’t make an argument for it.I have a personally preferred standard. It is human wellbeing.
How many humans are needed in order to sustain and grow a steady population in a habitable area? Assume resources are adequate and the environment is favorable.
The closer a population gets to the minimum, the more cross-breeding would be required. With a high population, couples can produce several offspring. With a low population, it would be advisable for each woman to have a pregnancy only once with any given man, and for subsequent pregnancies to be with men as distantly related from the previous partners as possible, to boost genetic diversity. [**]
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@Double_R
I’m talking about judging the level of theft with what one individual has to say about it. If I break into someone’s house and steal a million dollars, I am not considered any less dangerous or heinous because the guy who’s house it was turned out to have a billion dollars stashed away somewhere and didn’t care.
The example remains exemplary.
It doesn't matter how much the thief values the goods taken.
The infraction is measured purely by the value the owner places on the goods taken.
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@Double_R
I don’t think you’re going to suggest we stop teaching our history of racism too.
If you teach some people they were oppressed by other people, doesn't that promote resentment (racism)?
For example,
If you teach people that, historically, rich land-owners extracted value from their land-ownership by exploiting captive labor, wouldn't that promote resentment of people (and institutions) who have inherited that extracted value via familial (and institutional) happenstance?
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@secularmerlin
Great. A+ idea. Now how do you determine what is ethical?
DECALOGUE + unspecified "other sources".
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@Intelligence_06
If God doesn't want to show that he exists, then we wouldn't want to believe in God. If God actually wants people to believe in him, he should be assertive about it, not whatever this is happening.
Good point.
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@secularmerlin
IF some god(s) exist and IF said god(s) care if I believe they exist THEN the most expedient path to that out come would be a direct personal dialogue.
I'm still waiting for my talking donkey and holy hit-man.
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@fauxlaw
but that belief, alone, compels no one to action.
What if I believe you will attempt to kill me in my sleep?
Wouldn't that seem to "compel me to action"?
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@Tarik
How do you know what to do?I don’t know
Then it seems, you and I are in the same boat.
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@secularmerlin
whether or not someone is looking does not have any effect on the ethical content of your actions.
Plato: Ethics - The Ring of Gyges
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