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3RU7AL

A member since

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Total posts: 14,582

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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
“it’s fair to question why do we care if the universe is so uncaring, after all aren’t we at our core extensions of the universe?”
We care about our own individual well-being because we are born with survival instinct.

We care about our family and friends because we are incapable of surviving alone.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
Does this suggest you don't know if your life has any meaning?
No, it MEANS I don’t know if I will experience punishment or reward.
How do you know what to do?

And, are you suggesting that your life is just as meaningful if you receive eternal torture (instead of eternal happiness)?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
What leads you to believe you will experience eternal happiness?
I don’t know what I’ll experience.
Does this suggest you don't know if your life has any meaning?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
What do punishment and reward even have to do with meaning?
It MEANS if you live this way you’ll be punished and if you live another you’ll be rewarded therefore you should live by the latter.
Are you suggesting that a wild animal should avoid pain (punishment) and pursue pleasure (reward), and this will give its life (moral) meaningfulness?
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The great deception of claiming some great deception
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@secularmerlin
Thinking about it a little more, I don't believe I've ever met any individual person who believed the exact same things at two different times.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
What leads you to believe you will enjoy eternal happiness?
The answer is in the question it’s pretty self explanatory.
What leads you to believe you will experience eternal happiness?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
What leads you to believe you will enjoy eternal happiness?

Who and or what told you this?

How can I adopt your confidence?
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The great deception of claiming some great deception
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@secularmerlin
Perhaps this is as good a place as any to start that conversation so if you aren't sure about someone's point if view involved, by all means starting with mine, please ask them.
I try to let people self-identify.

For example, I've never met two self-described Christians who believe exactly the same things.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
That’s not a promise.
Do you have an eternal happiness contract?
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
I’m fine with anything as long as heroin is left out.
Ok, how does the promise of eternal happiness give your life meaning?
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Growing Older I've Lost Identity To A Political Party
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@Vader
Bottom Right Libertarians believe that they shouldn't tell others what to do, but also shouldn't be paying taxes for things they won't use.
The right to refuse service to any customer for any reason.

The right to monopolize markets.

A purely fee based economy where all roads are toll roads.
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Growing Older I've Lost Identity To A Political Party
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@Vader
The two party system itself is failing at it's core.
100% THIS.
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Growing Older I've Lost Identity To A Political Party
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@Vader
corporations are the people who help understand the consumer more than the government.
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Growing Older I've Lost Identity To A Political Party
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@Danielle
You made a claim, and yet the second I asked you for one shred of evidence... like literally one single name or one single corporation to back up that wide sweeping generalization you made... you couldn't do it lol. 
Amazon's playbook for crushing startups [LINK]
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Growing Older I've Lost Identity To A Political Party
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@Vader
To put it simply, I trust corporations more than I trust government.
Corporations would be significantly less evil without government assistance.
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Abortion and human rights
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@fauxlaw
Our personal responsibility demands we recognize the rights of others with equal regard as to our own.
I'm glad we can agree on this.
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Abortion and human rights
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@ebuc
I'm not convinced that sheet-metal wind-chimes are going to help us dispose of nuclear waste.
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N*g*er
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@Double_R
The value you place on something is irrelevant to the violation of having it taken from you.
If someone steals a blade of grass from their neighbor's yard, the value their neighbor places on that blade of grass is profoundly relevant.
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N*g*er
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@Double_R
I don’t think it should be banned from dictionaries, that is in part how we educate people about it.
Why would you want to "educate people about it"?

Doesn't that just teach people how to be racists?
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Abortion and human rights
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@secularmerlin
Cut down on repeat offenders.
Nice.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
Good point. I am also aware of a "reality" where I am awkwardly perched on roller skates while trying ineffectively to perform the duties associated with my dayjob for example. I cannot decisively prove that it isnot a real situation but it is not a "reality" which "exists" reliably or linearly or that gives me any actionable data. I'll let you know if that changes. 
Am I a butterfly dreaming of what it might be like to live as a human?

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Abortion and human rights
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@secularmerlin
Kinda like this,

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Abortion and human rights
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@ebuc
3} those who believe nukes are the answer, even tho nukes to not take any greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere,
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
(IFF) GOOD = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) GOOD = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEN) HEROIN = GOOD
Heroin may equal happiness but happiness doesn’t equal heroin just like apples equals fruits but fruits doesn’t equal apples.
HEROIN = HEAVEN
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
(IFF) GOOD = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) GOOD = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEN) HEROIN = GOOD
Heroin may equal happiness but happiness doesn’t equal heroin just like apples equals fruits but fruits doesn’t equal apples.
Please modify the equation to better suit your preference.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Reece101
Ego dilecto meo et dilectus meus
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Our most basic axioms
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@Reece101
The universe is singular; I am the universe.
MONISM.
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Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
You literally said emotions is the sole reason behind your decisions, what did you mean to accomplish by telling me that? That being impulsive is reasonable? Are you suggesting that I should be impulsive in that same regard?
EVERYTHING YOU DO IS CAUSED BY E-MOTION.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
I can however be certain that this is the only reality of which I am aware.
Don't you have "dreams"?
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
Yes "I" am a logical necessity for me not however for you. 
PHANERON.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
I  believe that arguments stand or fall on their own and I am reluctant to share details on line. My identity is unimportant to assessing my most basic axiom or any of the arguments that follow from it.
Claims of credentials and experience count for nothing.
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Our most basic axioms
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@secularmerlin
more or less at face value
Yep.

Also, regarding the apparent unfalsifiability, (iff) "i" didn't "exist" (then) "i" could not think "i" "exist"

Therefore, "i" am a logical necessity.
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Abortion and human rights
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@secularmerlin
IF the right to life trumps the right to bodily autonomy THEN failure to donate a kidney is immoral. 
If you have two kidneys you're automatically a MONSTER.
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Abortion and human rights
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@secularmerlin
I do not treat my dog as a contentious actor for example even though it seems to show signs of happiness and unhappiness, memory retention, even property rights (her toys are hers and my shoes are mine).
Great point.
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Abortion and human rights
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@ebuc
The woman steers all matters regarding the fetus, unless she ask for others input.
END. OF. MOTHERFUCKING. STORY.
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Abortion and human rights
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@Theweakeredge
IF that being is aware that they exist, THEN they have sentience. Having partial sentience might be something like having a notion that you exist. 
Perhaps you could provide some real-life examples?
Do any animals qualify?
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The great atheist deception
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@zedvictor4
Nonetheless, despite the unlimited possibility of the universal sequence, there is still an unanswered magical, GODLESS beginning to consider.
Really, even iff GOD is for-real-realzies, humans are incidental worms.

I'm not sure how anyone can even imagine that the MAGGNIFORENCE OF GAWD somehow magically makes human lives "meaningful".

It obviously emphasizes exactly how meaningless we are (in contrast).
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The great atheist deception
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@Tarik
(IFF) BOOK = GOOD (AND) HEAVEN = GOOD (AND) BOOK = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEREFORE) HEAVEN = HEROIN
I was referring to this.
(IFF) GOOD = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) GOOD = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEN) HEROIN = GOOD
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Abortion and human rights
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@Theweakeredge
IF that being is aware that they exist, THEN they have sentience. Having partial sentience might be something like having a notion that you exist. 
Perhaps you could provide some real-life examples?
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Who here supports political compass as the best online political alignment test?
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@Athias
Suggesting a "lesser" of two evils implicates quantity.
Great point.
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Abortion and human rights
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@FLRW
Can't we all agree this is a poorly designed world?  Shouldn't God loose his God license?
PERFECT GOD = PERFECT WORLD
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Abortion and human rights
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@secularmerlin
"self-awareness without doubt" 
This is exactly what I am most interested in although there is a discussion to be had about "partial sentience" and "the moral value" of things with the "capacity to suffer". How do you know you have reached the point of certainty and if it is a gray area do you err on the side of person or potato?
And does the mother suffer more in childbirth than the blastocyst suffers in deportation?
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Abortion and human rights
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@Theweakeredge
Furthermore, to completely stop would be to take away a large human well-being and derive them of protein and food, so we have to be careful how we do it.
I'm pretty sure access to bacon is more of a luxury than a necessity.
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Abortion and human rights
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@Benjamin
not helping a child is not the same as actively harming it.
Not helping a dying person stranded in a snowstorm is not the same as actively harming it.

Deporting an immigrant to a war-zone is not the same as actively harming it.
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Abortion and human rights
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@Theweakeredge
The amount of suffering an animal can suffer should equate to their moral being, furthermore their ability to comprehend it, aka personhood also determines it.
How do you quantify this?

Should we stop killing pigs for food?
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The great atheist deception
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@Theweakeredge
Also. if you value your own self, then you have to necessarily value others - because if you want to be valued, then you have to value others - it's a pretty simple concept I think.
I agree.

You want to survive and you can't do it alone.
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The great atheist deception
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@Tarik
But I'm sure that someone must value you, and hopefully some one values me too
Yeah sure but how do you prove to someone that doesn’t that should be the case.
Great question.
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The great atheist deception
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@zedvictor4
If there is a GOD, then it's purpose would be it's purpose.
Why does GOD exist?

What is the ultimate goal?

Why does it need humans to worship it?
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The great atheist deception
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@Tarik
Fine, if our purpose is to simply exist then why do you have respect and devotion for others?
Because  cooperation increases your chances of survival.
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The great atheist deception
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@Tarik
And what don't I have an answer for?
Nihilism, I’m sure you don’t consider yourself a nihilist so under the assumption that there is no objective morality what makes your position most reasonable?
(IFF) nihilism = subjective morality (AND) (IFF) nihilism = unreasonable (THEN) morality is objective
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