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@Mall
They're on the run, running scared. When you easily refute someone, you don't run from them.
the only way to win a debate
is to CONVINCE your opponent
if your interlocutor believes you are harassing them
they are unlikely to be CONVINCED
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@MAV99
will can never be free from desireI never disagreed with this.
ipso facto, no such thing as a "free-will"
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@MAV99
can an object exist without form ?
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@baggins
My disbelief is based on the fact that I have not encountered a sound argument that supports the idea that there is a god who interacts with us.
this seems perfectly reasonable
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@baggins
because Sidewalker claimed on numerous occasions that theism is scientific. An absolute nonsensical statement that is rejected even by the best religious apologists and philosophers
bingo
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@Sidewalker
You stand the various religions side by side so you can draw lines horizontally between them and find great differences, but these are the surface level differences, cultural differences of form rather than content, solely exoteric differences.I draw them vertically along a graded scale of ascending religious discernment in esoteric recognition that every religion has, underlying their various and conflicting literal meanings, a transcendent dimension, which is essential, primordial and universal.Ontologically speaking, my faith is in a transcendent Unity, commonly referred to as God (but not always); and using a vertically graded worldview it can be said that “above” the religions converge, and “below” they differ. I think it can also be said that epistemologically speaking, and on the same vertical scale that I referred to as ascending religious discernment, that cognitively, religious discernment unites above the line also.Each religion approaches the transcendent reality from different cultural directions or frames of reference, but they do essentially converge on this understanding of the epistemology of knowledge.
ok, so you're a SYNCRETIST
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@baggins
I disagree, you do need justification for all of the things you mentioned. There are reasons I am not Christian and muslim and taoist etc. Atheism requires justification too. Its not just well I dont believe just because. You need reasons for your non belief or you are the same as theist who don’t have reasons for their belief.There are reasons all those religions are not compelling.
i never "decided" to become a NON-MUSLIM
there is no "reason" i never "decided" to become a NON-MUSLIM
i have always been a NON-MUSLIM
i am simply UNconvinced
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@Sidewalker
this is a very important point
THEISTS often DEMAND that an ATHEIST "justify their disbelief"
THEISTS often DEMAND the ATHEIST "explain why" they disbelieve
and the ATHEIST is puzzled by this demand
because they do not "disbelieve" for any reason
they are simply, NOT-A-THEIST
imagine it as a synonym for the term christians often use to describe NON-CHRISTIANS
imagine asking someone to explain why they are a NON-CHRISTIAN
i'm sure they'd likely say something like "i never decided to become a christian" or "i don't know why anyone would become a christian" or "i remain unconvinced"
think for a minute
at what point did you decide to become a NON-MUSLIM ?
at what point did you decide to become a NON-BUDDHIST ?
please explain your reasons for becoming a NON-TAOIST
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@Sidewalker
Your religion is Scientism
i am not and have never been a follower of your ridiculous strawman "scientism"
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@Sidewalker
because, you know, it's a word, it's only people that make claims.
THEISM makes a claim
THEISM claims that a magnificent creator made pretty much everything and then wrote a book about it
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@ADreamOfLiberty
"You can tell what ideologies are different based on who tried to get rid of who" is fundamentally flawed.
fascism is incompatible with socialism
not only did they constantly complain about it
they also did not implement it
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@MAV99
I never disagreed with this. I am saying it free to do one or the other.
will can never be free from desire
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@MAV99
And what is the definition of will? According to you?
intentional goal seeking in service of desire
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@MAV99
It is obviously what determines what the thing is. Which leads us to reason it is also the principle of its existance.
are you suggesting FORM = SOUL ?
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@MAV99
The fact is that you can choose. Even what is not your preferred option.
you're conflating "the best option you can imagine"
with
"the best real option available to you in the moment"
your will cannot take action or willfully withhold action without motive
without violating the definition of "will"
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@MAV99
I am not quite sure what you are asking here. What do you mean?
i don't have any material
what form is this ?
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In my experience, "cultural liberalism" not only embraces "elitism"; it DEPENDS on it.
your source describes
Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty.
i'm not sure what your definition of "elitism" is,
but from what i understand, it's functionally indistinguishable from OLIGARCHY
which means the rich always win and the poor always loose
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@MAV99
No. you can still choose otherwise.
you can only choose your preferred option
your will cannot take action or willfully withhold action without motive
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@Greyparrot
Energy is a form.Dark matter is formless.
dark matter is nearly but not completely undetectable
the form that we are able to detect is rather like a large blob, based on its gravitational signature
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@MAV99
If you mean that we cannot think of them as seperate we obviously can.
what is the form of non-material ?
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@prefix
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@prefix
the rule of elites
seems to be in direct conflict
with "cultural liberalism"
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@prefix
a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in which individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the nation.
ask not what your country can do for you
ask what you can do for your country
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@MAV99
Even with all the available information the will still can choose something else.
you can only choose your preferred option
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@MAV99
They are not seperable in Reality. The mind can seperate them to use reason to know them further.
there is no such thing as form without matter
there is no such thing as matter without form
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@Sidewalker
Third, what you are talking about is metaphysics, specifically ontology (Google it), the study of existence, and anyone with even a cursory understanding of philosophy (maybe Google philosophy too) knows that there is no such thing as an ontological proof. That's why, when I challenge you guys to prove your own metaphysical presuppositions, rather than respond, you guys cry like a little bitch.
the word "ATHEISM" makes no metaphysical claim
i claim i am NOT-A-THEIST
your only POSSIBLE counter-claim is that you personally believe somehow that i am a THEIST
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@Sidewalker
First, you are the one making the BOP claim, so the Burden of Proof is on you, you must prove the above assertion. (The Pavlovian response is nuh uh, the BOP is on you)
what specific claim do you imagine i am making ?
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Republicans are so right to be concerned about the rights of the accused, just like they have always been over the decades.
ROFL
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@prefix
What is the true definition of "fascism"?
Fascist Italy had very little to do with Socialism, which is why Mussolini did his best to get rid of socialist opponents.
Just like Nazi Germany Fascist Italy had privately owned businesses that worked closely with the state.
Both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy privatized certain state functions and industries as part of their economic policies.
while not the ONLY aspect of fascism
privatization and promoting corporate power is certainly a hallmark of fascism (merging state and corporate power)
for example, when the fbi tells facebook which accounts to censor
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@MAV99
And no. I can choose against what I know is the best option.
if you are motivated to prove the dominance of your will
you CAN make a choice that (apparently) "contradicts" your standard motive hierarchy
but ONLY if you value the demonstration of dominance MORE than you fear the consequence of that demonstration
you are still choosing the best option for yourself based on the information available at hand
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@MAV99
No. The form itself is not composed of matter. The thing is composed of matter and form.
all matter has form
even liquid
matter and form are inseparable concepts
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@Sidewalker
Then you agree with me that the Burden of Proof game is bullshit?
the burden of proof is always on the party making the positive claim
it is not a "game" - - it's simply how conversations work
if i'm trying to convince you of something - - - i need to support my claim to meet YOUR standard of evidence
if you're trying to convince me of something - - - you need to support your claim to meet MY standard of evidence
this should be obvious
now, on this particular topic - - the atheist makes no positive claim - - they are merely UNconvinced - - which is exactly like every other conversation - - one party is UNconvinced and the other party TRIES TO CONVINCE THEM - - it's not rocket-surgery
the THEIST is making a positive claim - - "do this and that and or believe this and that or there will be shocking consequences" - - it actually sounds a lot like a threat
naturally, the UNconvinced are going to ask, "how do you know this" and when the answer boils down to "FAITH" - - it seems obvious they would remain UNconvinced
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@MarkWebberFan2
Your words are EXACTLY the same words preached by muslim clerics.
i don't know if you've happened to pick up a bible lately
but "the children of YHWH" do quite a bit of slaughtering women and children by divine command
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@MarkWebberFan2
They are humans, albeit with intent to kill every israeli kafir harbi. Perhaps they have a feverish belief to prove to everyone that their prophet was a perfect manifestation of mercy, even if they had a good record of gunning down random israeli citizens. The intent to reduce civilian casualties should not downplay the clear, obvious threat that islam poses to the west. For example, all of Hamas battalions are revered as heroes in the muslim world, even if the battalion consists of only rapists and pedophiles (though, only if they prey on kafir harbi children; they'd still get punished and disowned if they start molesting muslim kids though).
i'm pretty sure we already covered "HAMAS = TEH EVILZZ"
i'm also pretty sure if we find someone guilty of mass murder for any one of the hundreds of school shootings
we should slaughter their entire family
certainly their mother should be killed first
then their father of course
then any brothers and sisters they might have
and of course we should also slaughter their neighbors
because they "should have known better" than to live next to an evil person
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@baggins
You need to really really disprove leprechauns, maybe by inventing some kind of inter-dimensional machine and we go check in every possible dimension, take videos, come back here and show it to them. Im sure that won’t suffice too since leprechauns might have unknown powers and can just decide to hide somewhere else if they want to, kinda hard to argue against something that can do literally whatever it wants.
bingo
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@Sidewalker
If you can't prove that God exists to me, then you aren't allowed to be a Theist.
nobody is suggesting you can't be a THEIST
we're merely suggesting that you have no sound reason for your FAITH
and as far as i understand
that's exactly why THEISTS use the word FAITH in the first place
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@baggins
What about deism. That could be helpful. A little bit of special pleading but…. Anyway… A god that just created everything, gave it a kick start and now its hands off the project. Hmm, it could give the needy people an explanation for whats the first cause etc but theres some problems with that too. How do we really know about that god and why should we really care? Does deism answers anything or just complicates things more? Couldn’t the universe be eternal? Can’t the universe exist out of necessity? We can just say the same things about the universe itself as for a deistic god. Why does it exist? Well because it has to. So adding one more thing in the picture and not answering anything .. doesn’t sound like a better hypothesis to me. If we dont have any good arguments for or against God what do we do?
DEISM is functionally indistinguishable from ATHEISM
if we don't have any sound arguments for or against bigfoot what do we do ?
NOUMENON = UNKNOWABLE DEISTIC CREATOR = MAGNUM MYSTERIUM
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@Sidewalker
define exactly which stamp collecting you don't believe in?
very specifically, THEISTIC stamp collecting
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@baggins
And now that I’m a theist I’ll add “Isaac Newton believed in god, you think he was unreasonable?” and “a lot of tribes were spiritual, you think spiritually doesn’t exist?”. Oh and the best ones “Can you prove objective reality exists and baseball is scientific?”. All that philosophy stuff you know..
a veritable smorgasbord of red herrings
to derail the central contention
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@MAV99
So... not the best option, but what you see as the best option.
EXACTLY
you must always choose the best option BASED ON THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE AT HAND
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@MAV99
I said it is free to choose regardless of desires. It can choose none of the desires.
you can only choose "none" if "none" is the MOST DESIRED in that moment
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@MAV99
the "form itself" is wholly comprised of material
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@Sidewalker
and now that I'm an atheist, I'd add "the burden of proof is on you" to convince me to start collecting stamps in order to gain eternal bliss and avoid eternal torture
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@Sidewalker
"No argument" is weak, you didn't even talk about Unicorns and the Easter Bunny, c'mon, let's see some real philosophy LOL.
"no argument" is exactly what you would say if i asked you to explain why you don't collect stamps
the same applies for people who don't collect gods
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@Sidewalker
if you don't feel compelled to explain why you are "not-a-stamp-collector"
then you already understand why it is nonsensical to goad someone into explaining why they call themself an ATHEIST (simply, NOT-A-THEIST)
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@Best.Korea
Rock is atheist, as rock doesnt believe in God. Yet no one can say that rock made a claim of any kind.
well stated
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@MAV99
The will is free to choose even an option that is not the best. I know doctors who habitually smoke. I think they know it is not the best option, yet they still choose...
best in that moment of decision
your desire to enjoy a smoke
supersedes your fear of consequences
and is therefore
the best option in that moment
selecting from competing desires
does not mean you are "free from desires"
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@MAV99
If it "must always" do the best option, then it is not choosing.
bingo
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@Sidewalker
And no contrived interaction problem.
apparently we're in agreement
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