3RU7AL's avatar

3RU7AL

A member since

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Total posts: 14,582

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What I realized
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@Tarik
those words there comprised of are objective
WORDS are NOT OBJECTS.
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Free Speech
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@Theweakeredge
The hypocrisy that often comes up from doing military acts on other nations is that "it only counts if someone does it to us" or "it was justified, what they did wasn't" or other things like that. 
This perspective bias often infects our interpersonal moral intuition as well.

Are you familiar with "the fundamental attribution error"?
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PETITION
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@ethang5
Because the majority do not want to share restrooms with the opposite gender.
What are you afraid of?
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Abortion and human rights
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@fauxlaw
I will further add that even the pro-choice argument of viability [able to function post-womb] is being accomplished at earlier and earlier points in gestation, completely obliterating the idea of not just late, but mid-term abortion. The record is a successful premature birth at nineteen weeks.
Scientists in the Netherlands say they are within 10 years of developing an artificial womb that could save the lives of premature babies.
Premature birth, before 37 weeks, is globally the biggest cause of death among newborns. [LINK]


Ectogenesis is the wave of the future.
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What I realized
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@Tarik
Isn’t the word object a word?
yES.
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Abortion Has Now Been Eradicated
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@Greyparrot
Guess it's time for the aliens to come in and eradicate us with a superflu.
11.20.18
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Abortion and human rights
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@Barney
yet going by a human DNA standard,
Mice and men share about 97.5 per cent of their working DNA, just one per cent less than chimps and humans. [LINK]

Does this mean that mice have 97.5% human rights?
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Abortion and human rights
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@Reece101
which infringes on bodily autonomy of the mother,
Not to mention medical privacy.
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Abortion and human rights
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@Benjamin
Humans have a right to die a natural death - therefore humans have no right to kill each other, including through abortion
Do you really believe all humans have a right to die a natural death?

Does this extend to all mammals?
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What I realized
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@Theweakeredge
That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can argue all you like about it being non-distinguishable, but it is still there. It wouldn't matter if humanity was never here, the universe objectively existed. You are incorrect here.
Human words and or concepts and or descriptions and or claims are not OBJECTS.

Human words and or concepts and or descriptions and or claims cannot exist without a human mind.

Your precious undiscovered and or unobserved and or unobservable OBJECTS may or may not "exist" (depending on how you wish to define the word, "existence").

For example,


AND.

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What I realized
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@Tarik
Do FACTS have words?
I don’t understand that question, so are you going to defend your claim or not?
Claim: FACTS are comprised of WORDS.

Claim: WORDS are NOT OBJECTS.
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What I realized
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@Tarik
no one is disputing that definitions have words,
Oh, good.

Do FACTS have words?
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What I realized
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@Tarik
Please support this definition of fact because every source you cited said nothing of the sort.
Please find a definition that is not COMPRISED OF WORDS.
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What I realized
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@Theweakeredge
now, without minds, there would be nothing to acknowledge or perceive them, but it is not the same thing.
It's basically the same thing.

Imperceptible (undetectable, unverifiable) is functionally indistinguishable from "non-existent".
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What I realized
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, you can, that is light, that is the earth, etc, etc, you totally can.
Of course.

Yes.

You can TALK about the descriptions (OF OBJECTS).

But your descriptions are not OBJECTIVE.
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Protestors were INVITED into the Capital Building - - 57 seconds of uncut video,
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@HistoryBuff
Former Capitol Police Chief: Officer who worked during Wednesday riot dies by suicide
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What I realized
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@Theweakeredge
there are things that are not dependent on the mind for existence
Sure.

I'm not disputing this hypothesis.

I'm merely trying to point out that we cannot TALK about such "things".
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What I realized
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@Theweakeredge
Just to make a distinction, I typically agree with what you're going on about;
Ok, perhaps you might paraphrase what you think I'm saying.

however, if you are to assume that our senses are reliable then there are things which exist regardless of us as individuals,
Yes.  Logically-necessary "things".

and things that do not -
Yes.  Logically-incoherent "things".

hence the difference between constructs and objects,
Concepts (STATEMENTS AND OR CLAIMS AND OR DESCRIPTIONS) are not OBJECTS.

but if you were to not have that assumption then your position would be correct.
Please explain this statement.

As the previously stated assumption is needed for logical conversation, it is the one I make.
Which "stated assumption" (AXIOM) are you subscribing to?
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PETITION
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@ethang5
Conservatives understand it just fine, we just aren't going to make policy upending the majority for a rare aberration.
If it's so rare, why not let the rarities use the washroom of their preference?

I mean, the homos use the same facilities that you do already.

Aren't you afraid they might grope you?
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WTF Just Happened
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What I realized
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@Tarik
So in other words everything is not what it seems
Well, more specifically, the OBJECT is not the DESCRIPTION.

and if you truly believed this then you would realize that a reality exists independently from your mind,
An OBJECT may "exist" but it is impossible to TALK ABOUT IT.

kinda like the definition of objectivity 🤔.
The definition of "objectivity" is NOT itself an OBJECT.

And no I’m not saying that at all
Why not?

you came out of left field with that narrative all on your own.
I've been saying the exact same thing fifty six different ways from the start of this conversation.
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@Sum1hugme
NOUMENON.
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@Sum1hugme
I would not say logically necessary equals existence.
Well, there are logically-necessary "things" that are NOT empirically demonstrable.
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@Theweakeredge
Any chair which was maximally great would not need to rely on matter or space to exist.

Any chair which was maximally great would not be constrained by the materials which you have listed. 

It holds the greatest qualities of a chair, therefore any chair which would be greater, say - a chair which exists without matter - must be the chair that we are describing.
Well stated.
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@Soluminsanis
If a being is contingent,  it came into being and can go out of being.  If it is necessary it did not come into being and cannot go out of being.  This is self evidently greater
Is a person who lives a long life necessarily "greater" than someone who lives a short life?
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@Sum1hugme
I could replace the word god with marduk, since a marduk that exists is greater than one that does not right? But that doesn't make him exist.
We must make our definition of "EXISTS" explicit.

I propose, "EMPIRICALLY DEMONSTRABLE AND OR LOGICALLY-NECESSARY" = "EXISTS".
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PETITION
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@zedvictor4
 though developmental aberrations sometimes occur.
Why is this so difficult for "conservatives" to understand?
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PETITION
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@ethang5
But for the most part, public facilities in Western nations were male-only until the Victorian era, which meant women had to improvise. If they had to be out and about longer than they could hold their bladders, women in the Victorian era would urinate over a gutter (long Victorian skirts allowed for some privacy). Some would even carry a small personal device called a urinette that they could use discretely under their skirts and then pour out, Cavanagh said. Strangely, these urinettes were sometimes shaped like the male genitals.

This lack of female facilities reflected a notable attitude about women: that they should stay home. This "urinary leash" remains a problem in some developing nations, said Harvey Molotch, a sociologist at New York University and co-editor of "Toilet: The Public Restroom and the Politics of Sharing" (New York University Press, 2010). Women in India today, for example, often have to avoid eating or drinking too much if they have to be out in public, because there is no place for them to go, Molotch told Live Science.

Thus, the first gender-segregated restrooms were a major step forward for women. Massachusetts passed a law in 1887 requiring workplaces that employed women to have restrooms for them, according to an article in the Rutgers University Law Review. By the 1920s, such laws were the norm. [LINK]
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Parler, the conservative version of twitter, should have been banned by big tech
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@HistoryBuff
There is an important distinction between the two.
But NOT a LEGAL DISTINCTION.

Any speech that could be considered "illegal" is going to be "illegal" whether you say it to one person or one million.

AND.

Government officials want tech companies to put backdoors in encrypted communications apps — and may turn to Congress to make it happen. [LINK]
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I Wanted To Have A Slave When I Was Younger
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@ethang5
Even permanent servitude was voluntary.
Please review The 235th mitzvah.

There is no need for you to try and interpret "the ancient Hebrew text".
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What would you do if God commands you to murder.
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@Tradesecret
What needs to be taken into account is that in small government states, families become much more accountable to their own families and they do this because they are much more involved with their own communities and generally know what is going on.
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What would you do if God commands you to murder.
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@Tradesecret
Obviously in a system where abortion is legal and free and medical staff are available - the numbers of abortions will be better regulated and known.
The number is only "known" if medical privacy is violated.
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@fauxlaw
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Parler, the conservative version of twitter, should have been banned by big tech
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@HistoryBuff
Horrible people use telephones to communicate horrible things.

Should their phone service be rescinded?
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What I realized
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@Tarik
What are you disputing here? Objectivity? Facts? Or both?
OBJECTIVE =/= FACT

OBJECTIVE = OBJECT

FACT = A STATEMENT AND OR CLAIM AND OR DESCRIPTION (COMPRISED OF WORDS)
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What I realized
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@Tarik
...Well the objectively correct words should be used.
WORDS ARE UNDEFINED VARIABLES.
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What I realized
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@Tarik
Would you care if we called it an inter-subjective FACT?
No, but I would care if we you reject it as an objective fact.
It sounds like you are suggesting that "the thing in and of itself" qualifies as an "objective fact".

And under a certain unfalsifiable hypothesis (naive realism), that makes sense.

The key "problem" you seem to be overlooking here is that we can never represent "the thing in and of itself" with words.

Our words are always only going to be a crude representation of the "things" they describe.

In the same way that a map can never include every detail of an actual city.
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What I realized
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@Tarik
Why do you care whether or not we call "the shape of the earth" an "objective fact"?
Because I believe things should be represented as they are.
It is impossible to "represent things as they are".

That's why we have words.

Words are not objects.

We use words to represent objects.
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What would you do if God commands you to murder.
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@Tradesecret
How is your minimal government going to know if someone has an abortion?
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What I realized
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@Tarik
You're saying that the "literal object" does not rely on detection or description.

You're saying that the "literal object itself" does not rely on detection (by a human mind) or description (by a human mind).
What do you mean by “literal object”?
An actual, specific rock.

In direct contrast with the abstract concept of "an actual, specific rock".
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What I realized
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@Tarik
I don’t care the only reason I brought up the shape of the earth is because it’s an example of an objective fact, also caring about objective facts has no bearing on its objectivity FYI.
Would you care if we called it an inter-subjective FACT?

Why do you care whether or not we call "the shape of the earth" an "objective fact"?
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I Wanted To Have A Slave When I Was Younger
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@ethang5
The 235th mitzvah is that we are commanded regarding the treatment of Canaanite servants:1 that we should have them serve us forever, going free only in [a case where the master struck them and caused them to lose] a tooth or [use of] an eye. The same applies to any exposed organ which does not grow back, as explained in the Oral Tradition.2
The source of this commandment are G‑d's statement3 (exalted be He), "You shall have them serve you forever" and,4 "If a person strikes [his male or female servant in the eye...the tooth...he shall set the servant free...in compensation for his eye...in compensation for his tooth]."

In the words of the Talmudic tractate Gittin5: "Anyone who frees his servant transgresses a positive commandment, as it is written, 'You shall have them serve you forever.' " The words of the Written Torah itself show that he must be freed upon loss of a tooth or an eye.

The details of this mitzvah are completely explained in tractates Kiddushin6 and Gittin. [LINK] 
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PETITION
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@fauxlaw
every public washroom?
not my call, is it?
How do you propose enforcing your strictly binary code?

An unenforceable code is indistinguishable from no code.
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I Wanted To Have A Slave When I Was Younger
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@ethang5
The Hebrews have an extensive and detailed legal history on the matter,

Reuben lives in Sippori and owns a “Canaanite” maidservant—He bought her according to the law of land. After a time, she expresses to her master that she wants to become a Jewess. Due to difficulties with this, he sends her away as a gift to his brother Shimeon that lives in Tiberias. He sends her with a note, stipulating that he take care of the details to free her as a Jewess. Upon receiving the letter, Shimeon replies, “I don’t know if you heard, but one who frees his slaves violates a positive precept, i.e. you shall make them serve you forever.” He continues saying that the manumission of slaves does not apply at the present moment, therefore, he desists. The first brother replies and tells him not to violate the positive precept of the Torah. Since Shimeon knows the Scriptures, he decides to return the slave to Reuben, however, gives her to Levi as a gift. How was he allowed to do so if he did not have full ownership of the slave to be able to give her to Levi? Rabbi David Meldola explains that Shimeon never gained full ownership of the slave because he did not accept the original stipulation to free her, therefore, Reuben remains the owner and can do with her as he pleases. [Peri Etz Ḥaim, Vol. 5, 227-231]

Canaanite slavery refers to those non-Hebrew slaves, which were held captive as prisoners of war. To draw a legal comparison, Biblical Canaanite slavery can be equated to servitus in ius gentium [slavery according to the Law of nations] in Roman law.

The other type of slavery—Hebrew slavery—as the name itself implies, was an arrangement in which an impoverished Israelite would work for another Israelite for a period of 6 years, then would go free with accumulated wealth at the beginning of the 7th year [Indentured servitude]. [LINK]
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I Wanted To Have A Slave When I Was Younger
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@ethang5
Those verses use the word "slave" in the ancient Hebrew context.
The protection against permanent enslavement also did not apply to foreigners (Lev. 25:44-46). Men taken in war were considered plunder and became the perpetual property of their owners. Women and girls captured in war, who were apparently the vast majority of captives (Num. 31:9-1132-35Deut 20:11-14), faced the same situation as female slaves of Hebrew origin (Deut. 21:10-14), including permanent enslavement. Slaves could also be purchased from surrounding nations (Eccl. 2:7), and nothing protected them against perpetual slavery. The other protections afforded Hebrew slaves did apply to foreigners, but this must have been small comfort to those who faced a lifetime of forced labor. [LINK]
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PETITION
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@fauxlaw
I have shown, by a proper read of the OED, that gender and sex are the same thing. I'll take authority over counter culture any day. The OED trumps APADP every day
You also said you don't care.
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PETITION
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@fauxlaw
How can you tell, without violating a person's bodily privacy, whether or not they are a "girl" or a "boy" or some (non-binary) mix of the two?
Maryland v. King [2013] SCOTUS decision determined that a buccal swab [saliva test] is not invasion of privacy, [does not violate the 4A and 14A] and a buccal swab will tell you exactly that.
Do you plan on setting up mandatory buccal swabbing stations at the entrance to every public washroom?
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@Soluminsanis
A necessary being however,  is a being whose existence is not explained by a prior or outside reality, but one whose existence is explained in its own nature. It exists because it is existence. Not because it was actualized by a prior cause.
In other words, NOUMEON.
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@drafterman
I can't grant any premise until you define what it means for a mode of existence to be "greater" or "superior" than another.
Pure genius.
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Modal ontological argument: open for discussion and defense
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@Soluminsanis
then His existence must be in the mode of necessity not contingency,
Wait a minute.

At what point in your argument do you explain why "maximally great being" is a "he"??
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