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@PGA2.0
Again, a megalomaniacal lunitic is not the biblical God.
Why did "YHWH" order the slaughter of prisoners (women and children)?
Numbers 31:15-18
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
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@FLRW
The morality of an action can be judged in accordance with Kant's distinction of treating a person as an end not as a mere means.
How do you "treat a person as an end"?
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@Stephen
` Because he was bored stupid ' would have been a better reply.
Well stated.
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@FLRW
The "existence" of "YHWH" is immaterial.
What matters is whether or not "the holy scripture" is a practical guide to my daily life.
At this point I am unable to decipher any practical "wisdom" from this particular book.
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@SirAnonymous
"Misotheism is the "hatred of God" or "hatred of the gods" (from the Greek adjective misotheos" - WikipediaThank you. That would be a better description of such a person.
It seems unlikely that such a person would self-identify as a "misotheist".
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@SkepticalOne
Also, as related to this thread, atheism/theism are not moral philosophies
Good point.
However, I would suggest that starting with a "blank slate" is "more rational" than "adopting an existing dogma" when approaching the subject of "morality" (and while "theism" itself does not suggest a specific dogma, ANY theistic belief would be linked to dogma).
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@Tradesecret
In The Christian position the individual remains individual. Christians never become GOD or part of God.
Sure, ok, but if that's what you really think then perhaps you should stop saying UNIFICATION WITH GOD.
And maybe say something like, SLIGHTLY CLOSER TO GOD.
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@Tradesecret
You see you might think that neither atheism or skepticism necessitates nihilism. But it certainly does not prevent it - and it certainly encourages the thinking - of "there is no wrong - there is no right - and so far as I don't get caught - who cares? It does not provide a basis for looking after a world. OR for the future. When it says it does - it has to borrow from other worldviews because atheism is DEVOID of beliefs. Isn't? You keep saying "Atheism is a non-system of non-beliefs". But what you never go on to address is the implications of it. But if you have no- beliefs - you have nothing. An eclectic mix of every other worldviews' beliefs and doctrines is a fraudulent way of living life.
Here's the BOOGEYMAN.
NIHILISM.
And yet, there are no NIHILISTS.
Any human wiped clean of all BELIEF would be non-functional.
Any human wiped clean of all MOTIVE would be paralyzed.
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@Tradesecret
Is it wrong to demand or request fealty? When would it be right and when would it be wrong? Are there times when such a thing is warranted?
Loyalty and respect must be EARNED.
It cannot be DEMANDED.
The other dodgy thing about this comment is - imagine if we applied to this to our own world - and yes I think it is ok to do that. When the government says - do not kill or do not rape or do not have sex with children under the age of consent - if the government says - hey when you break these laws - the implication is - the punishment will - be life in prison or the death penalty or a great big fine - are we able to make the statement - the state demands loyalty to its laws based upon pain of the punishment?"
This is an excellent observation and highlights a key distinction between your DOGMATIC (authoritarian) thinking and the alternative.
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@Tradesecret
What none of you ever really get is the flip side of the picture you paint. If the presumption that God is good holds true, then God will be seen to be good by those who love him and evil by those who don't.
Why did "YHWH" create hell?
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@Lemming
I forgot to skip to the good part,
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@Lemming
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@Lemming
Humans are programmed by, and consume the external world, and individual cannot 'be without it.Indeed there is no outside world, there is only the world, of which an individual human is a piece of.Semantics on my part, maybe though.If one's PERSONAL MORAL CODE is used as a yardstick for external decisions, then it is not divorced from the external.And one's personal moral code is made 'of the external, I say again.
It's not that complicated.
How would you act if you were king?
How would you act if you were like superman (impervious to human punishment)?
How would you act with no established rules or authority?
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@secularmerlin
@K_Michael
Pollution, food shortages/distribution problems, unemployment, poverty.Couldn't a decrease in population make it a lot easier to solve these problems?For instance, the amount of farmland it takes to maintain livestock is much larger than the area it would take to feed the human race directly. However, this would put millions of people out of a job where there is already too many unemployed. If we had less people, then we could feed the population without putting people out of jobs.
In all likelihood, when the crude oil and coal runs dry, the planet might be able to support 2 billion souls. Some estimates are closer to 600 million. Solar and wind power take more energy to produce than they provide over their production cycle. Thorium reactors could solve the electricity shortage but we'd need to start building them immediately and everywhere because it could take more than 20 years. If we wait until the planet overheats or the crude oil and coal run dry, it will be too late. The wealthy will retreat to their walled gardens and the rest of us will cut each other's throats.
and,
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@Dr.Franklin
its basic bible stuff, not debate worthy
Are you suggesting that "YHWH"s motives are unquestionable or unknowable?
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@fauxlaw
One cannot blend moral and legal.
There is no distinction in Levitical Law between "moral" and "civil" laws.
Modern laws are based on common-law which was basically community standards that were generally agreed to be moral.
Even the idea of a jury is to keep judgments from straying to far afield from evolving community standards.
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@SirAnonymous
If they think Yahweh is real, would they still qualify as atheists?
I believe many organizations are real (even perhaps "good" and "true"), and yet I do not subscribe to them.
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@SirAnonymous
Ok. They would definitely be an unusual subset of atheists, since most atheists don't believe in the existence of God.
Many Atheists I've encountered describe it as more of a non-opinion on the existence of any particular Theistic framework.
Atheism is a worldview in exactly the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.
Atheism is a worldview in exactly the same way that NOT swimming is a sport.
Atheism is a worldview in exactly the same way that NOT working is an occupation.
Atheism is a worldview in exactly the same way that NOT vandalizing public property is an artistic expression.
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@SirAnonymous
If they think Yahweh is real, would they still qualify as atheists?
Most certainly YES.
You can only be considered a THEIST if you follow (subscribe to/adhere to) a specific THEISTIC tradition.
Iff you DON'T subscribe, you are NOT-a-THEIST (ATHEIST).
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@Lemming
Classic.
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@MarkWebberFan
Looking over the examples in the thread, I think this discussion raises a new question: What about couch potatoes?Whenever I think of ethical dilemmas, the hypothetical individuals in my examples are usually good and decent individuals. I've always wondered if couch potatoes are worthy substitutes. Couch potatoes are the perfect opposite of good individuals. They are idle in cases of moral problems. For example, they would rather watch t.v. than volunteer at a local charity. Would you say that couch potatoes are unethical?
You can only ever be "morally responsible" for your (intentional) ACTIONS.
This is my ultimate solution to any "trolley problem".
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@Lemming
That is a common condition. If it were not for self interest overcoming our sense of empathy would we even need ethics?We might still disagree on how to best help other people I suppose, or what constitutes a virtuous life, thus still requiring ethics, even in a less 'self interested human race.
Do you think all the "good intentions" would short-circuit any and all "moral culpability" (requirement for punitive "punishment")?
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@Lemming
Perhaps you're way out in the middle of nowhere, driving along a road and you see a stop sign.Would you stop?Perhaps you're way out in the middle of nowhere, driving along a road and you see a campsite, and a large bag of money.Would you take the money?I'd 'probably stop.Not sure though.Large bad of money.I'm afraid I might, if I thought I could get away with it.The ramifications of the questions and answers, eludes me though.
The question is WHY?
What is YOUR PERSONAL MORAL CODE?
Divorced from any EXTERNAL rules?
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ATHEIST =/= CREEDAtheists deny God in one of a few ways. They either see no evidence for God, or they reject the evidence that is offered, or they don't care enough to seek God because they have not examined their beliefs well enough.
OR, perhaps they believe "YHWH" IS REAL and just don't give a flying flip.
(IFF) the cosmos is controlled by a megalomaniacal lunatic who demands my fealty on pain of eternal torture (THEN) FUCK THAT GUY.
I'D RATHER BE ETERNALLY TORTURED THAN TO SHOW OBSEQUIOUS DEFERENCE TO (human) PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES "PREISTS" AND "PROPHETS" AND "TEACHERS".
(IFF) "YHWH" wants to speak to me (THEN) let them SPEAK.
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@PGA2.0
ATHEIST =/= CREEDAtheists deny God in one of a few ways. They either see no evidence for God, or they reject the evidence that is offered, or they don't care enough to seek God because they have not examined their beliefs well enough.
OR, perhaps they believe "YHWH" IS REAL and just don't give a flying flip.
(IFF) the cosmos is controlled by a megalomaniacal lunatic who demands my fealty on pain of eternal torture (THEN) FUCK THAT GUY.
I'D RATHER BE ETERNALLY TORTURED THAN TO SHOW OBSEQUIOUS DEFERENCE TO (human) PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES "PREISTS" AND "PROPHETS" AND "TEACHERS".
(IFF) "YHWH" wants to speak to me (THEN) let them SPEAK.
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@PGA2.0
If you deny God or gods what is left but a human evaluation of life, being, origins, etc?
I wouldn't say "deny".
It's more like "fail to acknowledge the value or significance of".
It's more like "ignore after some thorough investigation".
We all start with "human evaluation".
Even you started with "human evaluation".
Why do you think so many "christians" disagree with each other?
It's because "human evaluation" and "human interpretation" is inescapable.
You can certainly claim it's "something else" like "holy inspiration" or something, but you'd better be able to back it up with tons of charisma or else you're likely to be burned alive by your fellows.
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@PGA2.0
Atheists usually incorporate humanism in their belief system.
That's not the same thing.
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@PGA2.0
You're conflating QUANTA with QUALIA.1 + 1 = 2 therefore I love you.Grab hold of oneness, will you? The concept of one plus one can be demonstrated in the material world (empirically).
HOW DOES THE PRINCIPLE OF AXIOMS APPLY TO MORALITY??
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@PGA2.0
Show me why you think this god is worthy of worship and consideration.
Because it made everything without demanding worship.
Because it made everything without threatening eternal torture.
Is a parent "worthy" of "worship" simply because they made their children?
Is an engineer "worthy" of "worship" simply because they designed some robots?
I made you robots, now worship me or be tortured forever in the simulated hell that I specifically designed in order to give myself leverage.
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@PGA2.0
Before the Bible was codified...
There's a significant gap between Abraham and "codification".
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@PGA2.0
It is reasonable to believe in ISHTAR (2150 BCE) because the holy EPIC OF GILGAMESH predates ABRAHAM (1927 BCE).How is that showing me that such a god is reasonable to believe?
It is reasonable to believe the EARLIEST records.
Presumably those records would be the most accurate, since they would be recorded the people closest to the actual events.
IF YOU HAVE SOME SPECIAL DEFINITION OF "REASONABLE" THAT YOU'D LIKE ME TO CONSIDER, PLEASE MAKE IT EXPLICIT.
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@PGA2.0
If you value accurate PROPHECY, perhaps you should worship BLACKROCK. [LINK]What point do you want me to glean? Blackrock was a financial data keeper, programmed by a man. I watched from your set start point one conspiracy theory and assertion after another until the Trump part (1:32:00).
BLACKROCK has demonstrated their consistent ability to predict future events and capitalize on these predictions in an extremely QUANTIFIABLE and profitable manner (prophet).
It's not a "theory". It's extremely real.
Do you think we should worship BLACKROCK?
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@PGA2.0
Show me how.
Same as you. Moral instinct. Sense of fairness.
Start with how morals come about for an atheist and what makes them anything but a relativistic and subjective preference.
Without explicit MORAL AXIOMS, your claim to "universal" "objective" morality is indistinguishable from your personal preference.
Please present your moral mathematics.
For example, [MORAL MATHEMATICS]
If that is all you've got why should I believe you when I hold different beliefs about morality?
But that's the funny thing. We discovered our moral instincts in exactly the same way. And we believe basically the same thing (ethics).
The fact that you claim your moral codec is endorsed by some celestial celebrity means nothing to me.
The fact that I might claim my own moral codec is endorsed by some rival celestial celebrity means nothing to you.
What makes one subjective preference 'better' than another?
The ability to cobble together PERSUASIVE RHETORIC (AND OR BLUNT FORCE).
Atheists use qualitative language all the time but how do they distinguish better?
Using absolute language to describe your moral preferences is simply a category error.
Where's your moral mathematics?
What is their ultimate/final/fixed reference point?
The same as yours. Yourself. You are the only thing at the center of your own perception.
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@PGA2.0
Tell me what Nanabozo reveals about evil.
NANABOZHO reveals some things may appear to be "good" yet lead to negative consequences.
NANABOZHO reveals some things may appear to be "bad" yet lead to positive consequences.
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@PGA2.0
They become their own authority on all things...
Do you consider yourself your own authority on what you should believe, or do you delegate that authority to someone else?
How do you know what "YHWH" wants you to do today?
Do you ask yourself, or do you ask someone else?
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@PGA2.0
How do you justify your DISBELIEF (devoid of belief) in NANABOZHO?Because my belief in the biblical God is well justified...
Can you disprove NANABOZHO without resorting to "YHWH" = TRUE?
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@PGA2.0
The fact is that we cannot really be unenlightened regarding Brahman, if the soul is one with Brahman. We cannot be ignorant of Brahman, if we are one with it. If we are ignorant of Brahman's nature, then Brahman is also ignorant of Brahman, since the two are one, which is impossible.
Are you aware of your amygdala?
Is your tibia aware of your elbow?
Is every part of your body aware of every other part of your body?
How big is your enteric nervous system cluster?
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@BearMan
Perhaps you might have a few minutes to consider this. [LINK]
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@BearMan
Yeah that's the grey area. Nobody really knows, and neither do I.It seems we both agree now.
Wouldn't it be nice if we had some hard data showing if "asymptomatic" COVID positive individuals are DEADLY DANGEROUS?
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@BearMan
If they know they have COVID they shouldn't be outside in the first place. Unless it is absolutely necessary for them to go, they will have to social distance and wear masks.
I agree 100%.
But what do you think about people who don't know if they've got COVID or not?
Should everyone be forced to wear a mask?
And for how long?
We're very likely to rename "flu season" to "COVID season", since they're 99.99% identical (basically indistinguishable to the average person).
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@BearMan
I don't even think they should wear a mask.
You mean "in public" right?
Because as it stands, everyone is forced to wear masks in public because we are all assumed to be "asymptomatic" plague spreaders.
At what point are we going to know when it's safe?
I mean, basically you've turned every healthy person on earth into a secret, undetectable, unwitting murderer that must be muzzled like a mad dog.
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@BearMan
When you are sick, wear a mask.
I agree 100%.
This is how it is in plenty of Asian countries. I don't know why Westerners refuse to adopt this. Wash your hands for 20 seconds, wear a mask when you're sick, and refrain from touching a lot of things in public, EVEN when you aren't in a pandemic.
I agree 100% with this as well.
What about "asymptomatic" patients??
This seems to be the point of contention.
IN YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, at what point can we stop forcing "asymptomatic" patients to wear masks all the time?
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@BearMan
Naw it's just that masks work.
Please publish this important finding in your nearest scientific journal.
You might be leaping to conclusions again, better get peer-reviewed.
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@PGA2.0
There are logical answers for these apparent contradictions...
Does god tempt man?
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@PGA2.0
This is not a serious attempt to address the issues but an ad hom attack to mock Christians and Jews as stupid people, which I object to.
If pointing out apparent contradictions is "out of bounds" in your opinion, then you must be 100% impervious to critique.
The presentation doesn't contain a single ad hominem attack (it's insult free).
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@PGA2.0
I believe I have good reason to believe that "YHWH" is not anything other than a man-made god on the impossibility of the contrary.Go ahead and present those reasons.
Abraham invented "YHWH" out of whole cloth.
Ahura Mazda and Ishtar both predate Abraham in the physical historical record and even in Jewish mythology.
The angels that Abraham describes are suspiciously similar to the Canaanite pantheon from his native Land of Ur.
Oh, right, and there's also LOGIC.
(IFF) "YHWH" is the omniscient, omnimpotent, omnibenevolent sole creator of all things and was not created itself but is the original and principle necessary being that defines "existence" (THEN) EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS MUST BE PART OF "YHWH".
- Ethica Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata
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@Stephen
I believe that they were deadly rivals. As always seemed the 'tradition' in those ancient times.
Rivals cross-promote all the time.
Nothing gets more attention than a good flame-war.
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@Stephen
And Jesus makes it quite clear that one way or another that John had been baptised (presumably by god).You've just answered your own question.How so?
John was presumably authorized (if not physically baptized) by "YHWH" (confirmed by Jesus' endorsement).
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@BearMan
I'm saying we should wear masks,
You've convinced me.
When should we stop wearing masks?
Shouldn't we be concerned for the 600,000 people who die every year from flu?
Shouldn't we be concerned for the thousands of people who die every year from tuberculosis?
Why would we wear masks for one deadly disease and not wear masks for EVERY DEADLY DISEASE?
Don't you care about the cute-tiny-baby-children and or the elderly?
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@BearMan
Simply testing positive for COVID-19 does not mean you're contagious forever-and-ever.No, they had COVID at the time
EVEN BETTER.
THIS PROVES THE COVID PLAGUE IS NOT NEARLY AS INFECTIOUS AS WE'VE BEEN TOLD!!!!
My position that "even one viron can be deadly" was taken directly from one of the scientific studies you cited.
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