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@PGA2.0
Your words convey your thoughts and how they relate or don't to the topic.
You seem to eagerly jump to conclusions regarding my internal motivational schema.
Are you familiar with the distinction between IMPLY (AND) INFER?
A speaker or writer implies, a hearer or reader infers;
Implications are incorporated in statements, while inferences are deduced from statements.
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@PGA2.0
The starting point is either a personal Being - God, or naturalism (impersonal matter) and follows it up from that starting point.
Nope. This is a false-dichotomy.
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@PGA2.0
There are laws for murder, stealing, perjury, adultery, built into most (if not all) legal systems.
Which legal system do you consider "perfect", or you know "the best"?
Don't the Jews have an extensive framework specifically purpose built for the practical, real-world application of "YHWH"s law?
Do you follow that system?
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@BearMan
Both of these are wrong.
Please challenge my axioms and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.
Simply gain-saying is unproductive.
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@BearMan
For the record, I have come across people who have tested positive for COVID-19, I've literally been inside their house, but wore a mask and was careful with what I touched.
Simply testing positive for COVID-19 does not mean you're contagious forever-and-ever.
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@BearMan
It is clear that you are trying to prove that EVERYONE who has gone indoors with other people have gotten the virus, which is false. Since these people exist, your case is not sound.
I appreciate your attempt at a STEEL-MAN, but I would not make that leap myself.
I would say that (IFF) a contagious person has been in the same room (store/gym/restaurant) as a susceptible person (within a 6 to 8 hour window) (THEN) their chances of encountering at least one viron are extremely high (AND) their chances of encountering at least one viron are NOT mitigated by either wearing or not wearing a mask.
This means that while NOT EVERYONE IS INFECTED, wearing a prophylactic mask will not protect you from exposure to dangerous plague virons.
(IFF) you tested negative (THEN) (EITHER) you were not in the same room with a contagious person (within a 6 to 8 hour window) (OR) exposure to sunlight destroyed the virons on your person before they entered your body.
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@BearMan
It is clear that you are completely wrong with your "facts" which are actually just opinions you have.
Please be slightly more specific.
Please identify a single "fact" (claim) I've made that you specifically doubt.
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@BearMan
The pure existence of these people undermines your entire case, that masks and social distancing do help.
I never claimed, "these people don't exist".
Therefore, "the pure existence of these people" is immaterial to my case.
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@BearMan
I have not ever had the virus, and I followed every single rule the government showed.
YOU DON'T KNOW THAT.
YOU COULD BE "ASYMPTOMATIC".
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF EPISTEMOLOGICAL LIMITS!!!
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@BearMan
Governments have already noticed what you noticed and enforced more rules.
Gyms are opened and bars are closed.
Churches are limited to 25 individuals and restaurants are limited to 25% capacity.
None of this makes sense.
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@BearMan
It is clear that your "facts" are wrong because not every person has the virus, and they have gone outside.
I specifically noted INDOORS.
Sunlight (ultraviolet) apparently kills virons dead.
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@BearMan
I am betting if I provided one, you would have1. Said it was unreliable2. Said it was only ONE resource.
Leap to conclusions much?
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@BearMan
You think that since some masks don't work, all masks don't work and you shouldn't wear one.
Real world.
You are a good citizen (88 years young), wearing a proper mask.
You go into a gas-station-convenience-store.
You touch the door to open it.
You look around.
About half the customers are wearing home-made, cloth masks or scarves or bandanas.
Does that mean that I have half the risk of contracting the plague?
NO. NO IT DOES NOT. BECAUSE IT ONLY TAKES ONE VIRON TO INFECT YOU.
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@BearMan
I never said bandanas or other weird masks work. I said N95 and Surgical Masks do. You countered this by saying there is valves that expell breathing unfiltered. I countered this by saying that nobody is standing right in front of the valve, and not all masks have valves.
Ok, so we agree that some masks prevent some spread of some virons, some of the time.
It doesn't matter if you're "not standing in front of the valve". The virons contaminate the air. Often circulating for several hours.
Most people are not wearing masks that even slightly mitigate the spread of virons.
Even single viron is potentially deadly.
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@BearMan
From your own source,
THE CLAIM:
“The spread of the virus really goes down in areas where people wear masks and it goes as down as four-to-five times reduced risk of infection when people in the community are wearing a mask than when they’re not wearing a mask,” says Dr. Dweik. [YOURLINK#1]
THE SCIENCE SUPPORTING THIS CLAIM:
We have demonstrated a simple optical measurement method to evaluate the efficacy of masks to reduce the transmission of respiratory droplets during regular speech. [LINKTOACTUALSTUDYNOTOPINIONPIECE]
OPTICAL MEASUREMENT does not address the RATHER IMPORTANT question of "how much virus does it take to infect another person".
THE EXACT SAME STUDY CONCLUDES:
What didn’t work, according to the study, were bandanas, knitted masks and neck fleeces, which are popular with runners for cold weather running and, now, coronavirus safety while exercising. [YOURLINK#1]
THE EXACT SAME STUDY CONCLUDES:
The study’s neck fleece data caused a bit of stir with many news outlets picking up on the results that those fleeces actually performed worse than wearing no mask at all.
According to the study’s authors, it seems that the porous material that makes up the neck fleece breaks the larger respiratory droplets into smaller droplets instead of blocking them which allows them to linger in the air a little longer. [YOURLINK#1]
NOT TO BOG YOU DOWN WITH DATA TLDR:
Speech droplets generated by asymptomatic carriers of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) are increasingly considered to be a likely mode of disease transmission. Highly sensitive laser light scattering observations have revealed that loud speech can emit thousands of oral fluid droplets per second.
In a closed, stagnant air environment,
[Basically a sealed box, not a shop or restaurant where human breath and normal movement continuously agitates the air.]
they disappear from the window of view with time constants in the range of 8 to 14 min, which corresponds to droplet nuclei of ca. 4 μm diameter, or 12- to 21-μm droplets prior to dehydration. These observations confirm that there is a substantial probability that normal speaking causes airborne virus transmission in confined environments. [LINKTOACTUALSTUDYNOTOPINIONPIECE]
However, the possible role of small speech droplet nuclei with diameters of less than 30 μm, which potentially could remain airborne for extended periods of time (1, 2, 8, 9), has not been widely appreciated. [LINKTOACTUALSTUDYNOTOPINIONPIECE]
"how much virus does it take to infect another person"
The independent action hypothesis (IAH) states that each virion has an equal, nonzero probability of causing an infection. Validity of IAH was demonstrated for infection of insect larvae by baculovirus (15), and of plants by Tobacco etch virus variants that carried green fluorescent protein markers (16). IAH applies to systems where the host is highly susceptible, but the extent to which IAH is valid for humans and SARS-CoV-2 has not yet been firmly established. [LINKTOACTUALSTUDYNOTOPINIONPIECE]
each virion has an equal, nonzero probability of causing an infection.
EVERY SINGLE VIRON CAN CAUSE INFECTION.
EVERY SINGLE BREATH IS DEADLY.
IF YOUR MASK IS NOT AIRTIGHT AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ARE BREATHING THE SAME AIR YOU WILL ENCOUNTER AT LEAST ONE VIRON.
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@BearMan
From your own source,
If someone carrying the virus is wearing a cloth mask, that mask blocks most of the respiratory droplets they’re exhaling which is where the virus lives. Instead of propelling those droplets away from you, the mask keeps them from traveling more than a few feet. Thus, we get the recommended social distancing guideline of six feet. [YOURLINK#1]
First of all, cough and sneeze droplets are much larger and much more infectious than respiratory droplets (so cough and sneeze into your sleeve like you normally do).
Second of all, respiratory droplets average in sizes about 1 micron.
Respiratory droplets the size of 1 micron circulate freely for hours indoors.
So it's impossible to contain respiratory droplets within a range of "a few feet".
AND EVEN IFF it was possible to contain these respiratory droplets within the range of "a few feet",
IFF that "few feet" is, let's say, A CHECK-OUT COUNTER or a DOORWAY were every single customer passes, EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER (their clothes, hair, and skin) WILL BE CONTAMINATED WITH THE PLAUGE.
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@BearMan
The exclusive measure of an argument (rhetoric) is its ability to CONVINCE others.
Simply "declaring victory" is shockingly naive.
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@BearMan
It's kind've obvious that you are ignoring the post with actual sources, and you are trying to salvage what is left of your demolished case.
Rush to declare victory much?
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@BearMan
Once again, it took me one google search to find hundreds of results.https://www.today.com/health/do-face-masks-work-against-coronavirus-study-finds-masks-social-t183018It is clear you know almost nothing about the topic at hand. All it takes is a google search to prove you wrong. And I know exactly what you're going to say. You will insult my sources whilst you have given absolutely NONE.
Pick ONE you can't just gish-gallop your way through this.
JUST READING THE HEADLINES =/= RESEARCH.
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@BearMan
If it doesn't work the government wouldn't want you to wear it.
If the Vietnam war was based on lies, they never would have forced thousands of Americans into foreign battlefields.
So, I'm guessing the Vietnam war MUST have been based on GODSHONESTTRUTH??
NEWS FLASH: "the government" doesn't give a sh*t about me or you.
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@BearMan
You are literally basing your case off the illogical Nirvana Fallacy. Just because it doesn't work fully doesn't mean you shouldn't use it.
I agree with you that the "perfect-is-the-enemy-of-the-good" argument is an overused excuse to "do nothing" (CHERNOBYL).
HOWEVeR, simply taking action because you're afraid of an undetectable jabberwocky is WORSE.
(IFF) it's "so obvious" that masks "do something" (THEN) there should be mountains of data telling us EXACTLY how "effective" they are.
VIROLOGY IS NOT A "NEW" AREA OF STUDY.
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@BearMan
No, search it up yourself fool. I don't debate with these kinds of people.
Nice.
Expecting your opponent to provide research to support your argument is like expecting a stranger to mow your lawn.
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If you attack (censor/demonize) people for saying itsoktobeblank, you are contributing to their radicalization. By excluding them from the conversation, you are forcing them into a toxic echo-chamber. If you are unable to acknowledge that you can agree with some points a person makes while disagreeing with other points a person makes, instead of accepting or rejecting them wholesale, then you are no longer a skeptical-free-thinker, and you are instead an insular "arbiter of truth" advocating censorship of people and ideas you happen to disagree with.
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@PGA2.0
...but if that being is not almighty (which describes God) or necessary, and has a beginning, such as Nanabozho, then there is a greater cause and explanation.
NOUMENON fits your criteria perfectly.
EIN-SOF fits your criteria perfectly.
χάος fits your criteria perfectly.
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@PGA2.0
The alternative to a Creator is blind random chance happenstance.
There is no such thing as "random".
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@PGA2.0
You can't "map" logic by an empirical standard for it is conceptual.
You can test logic for efficacy using empirical standards.
All mechanical devices are logical systems.
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@PGA2.0
Some things are self evident. Logic is one of those things.
I'm ever so glad we can agree.
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@PGA2.0
Did you begin to exist, and do you owe your existence to something or someone else?
This "question" is immaterial (beyond our epistemological limit).
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@PGA2.0
You are not the origin of yourself if you had a beginning.
I may or may not be the ultimate "origin". That "question" is immaterial (beyond our epistemological limit).
HOwEveR, I am the starting point of my perception.
COGITO, ERGO SUM.
First and foremost, you must know thyself.
Only then can you start building models of how things relate to you.
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@PGA2.0
Alternatively, you are having an imaginary conversation with your ultra ego because you are lonely.
Why did "YHWH" create humans?
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@PGA2.0
Although we have our reason and logic to work with are we necessary beings?
Yes.
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@secularmerlin
(IF) it was a possible for the Yahweh's to forgive humans without requiring a sacrifice (THEN) the Yahweh could have forgiven humans without a sacrifice.(THEREFORE)THE SACRIFICE WAS COMPLEYELY UNNECESSARY.
Well stated.
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@secularmerlin
...and I agree to serve your prison sentence...
Yeah, people could just pay others to serve their prison terms.
This seems to be missing the point.
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@Stephen
And Jesus makes it quite clear that one way or another that John had been baptised (presumably by god).
You've just answered your own question.
In all likelihood, Jesus took John for just another popular Jewish heretic (probably more popular than Jesus at the time).
Jesus, who was also a popular Jewish heretic, took advantage of an opportunity to increase his own popularity with a publicity stunt.
John (correctly) concluded that his own popularity (and historical profile) would get a decent boost from this charismatic traveling magician (Jesus).
It's kind of like when a moderately popular yootoober invites another moderately popular yootoober on their channel in order for both to get a chance to cross-pollenate their subscribers.
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@BearMan
Essentially what 3RU7AL says is that masks don't work 100% so we shouldn't use them.
We need to pinpoint the statistical reduction in virus transmission.
The current data suggests the "reduction" is statistically indistinguishable from zero.
The "better-safe-than-sorry" and "common-sense-says-it's-better-than-nothing" is the same "reasoning" used to justify confining thousands of Italian and Japanese Americans to interment camps during WW2 (it maybe-probably prevented at least 1 sabotage attempt so I guess it was "worth-it").
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@BearMan
There's plenty of scientific evidence, you just can't be bothered to search it up.
Please present at least one study that you personally consider authoritative suggesting a statistical reduction in virus transmission specifically attributable to ear-loop style mask utilization.
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@BearMan
It is made for the protection of the people, barely the wearer.
It sounds like it protects neither.
It sounds like a cynical social experiment.
Make sure you Duck-&-Cover [LINK].
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@BearMan
It is also made clear here only certain types of masks have valves, and these masks are being banned and have alternate protection by the minute.
Valve masks have only been banned in "the California Bay Area".
So, no luck for the rest of us.
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@BearMan
It is clear here the point of a mask is not to protect against a disease 100%, but prevent the disease from spreading as fast.
Where's the efficacy data?
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@BearMan
a well-fitted face covering covers the mouth, nose and chin, with loops around the ear ensuring no gaps on the sides.
YES. 100% THIS.
NOBODY IS BUYING CUSTOM TAILORED HIGH-QUALITY MASKS (WITH NO GAPS ON THE SIDES).
PEOPLE ARE USING HOME-MADE LOOSE-FITTING MASKS AND HANDKERCHIEFS OR BANDANAS (NOT FITTED AROUND CHEEKS AND CHIN).
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@BearMan
No one in a pandemic will stand directly in front of the valve.
The point is the particles are released into the air UNEMCUMBERED.
The plague floats in the air for hours, landing on everyone's clothes, hair, tables, and chairs.
The plague floats in the air for hours, and can be breathed in through cheap cloth masks and otherwise loose fitting masks.
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@BearMan
Masks prevent COVID-19.
There is no scientific evidence for this claim.
The contagion studies conducted with people tending to flu patients showed zero difference in transmission rates between "no mask" and "wore mask most of the time".
Also, the hypothetical "asymptomatic transmission" was unable to be replicated in laboratory conditions.
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@BearMan
Yes but viruses are never alone.
The virus itself is much smaller than 1 micron (0.125)
The droplets you breathe normally average 1 micron.
And the mask (which is not air-tight) just holds them, waiting to spread them all over your fingers when you take it off and put it back on again.
The particles float in the air for hours and land on practically everything.
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@Stephen
So are we to take this as John being qualified? Or does this mean that John had himself been baptised thereby qualified to perform the baptismal rite ?
It's a question the priests were unwilling to answer.
Jesus knew they would be unwilling to answer the question and simply asked it in order to avoid answering the question posed to him.
Jesus basically said, "When you ask me a trick question, I will ask you a trick question. My answer will be the same as yours."
The "true" answer is "they were both granted authority directly from YHWH", but according to the law, only the high-priest could communicate directly with "YHWH" and so anyone claiming they were granted authority directly from "YHWH" could be charged with blasphemy.
Jesus knew the priests weren't ready to charge John with blasphemy (perhaps due to John's popularity), and made a bet that they wouldn't charge him either if he pointed that out.
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@RoderickSpode
Do parents have any responsibility to their children?
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@Paul
I don't know about the purpose part, but yes when stairs explode they make the atoms that make people and dirt and all the other stuff in the universe.
We are stair stuff.
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@PGA2.0
...rstand evil since the Fall because God let us experience evil for a purpose, that we might perhaps seek out God, be reunited, and escape from the...
OK, you've convinced me.
How do I detect moral absolutes?
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@PGA2.0
There is a fixed and final reference point with the biblical God.
Why don't you follow the full 613 biblical commandments? [LINK]
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