3RU7AL's avatar

3RU7AL

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Scientific Racism
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@RoderickSpode
How can a non-entity possess the intention of getting religion into schools by stealth, pretend to be science, etc.? It sounds like they're referring to a human organization. Don't you think?
The Intelligent Design HYPOTHESIS is not putting itself into books.

The motives referred to apply to the HUMANS who are promoting the idea.
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Scientific Racism
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@secularmerlin
I think the real question revolves around AXIOLOGY, are "smarter" humans more "valuable"?
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Scientific Racism
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@RoderickSpode
Yes, theoretically from a natural evolutionist standpoint, if objectively observed evidence pointed to some race of humans being higher evolved than others, we would have no choice but to accept it.
That's the funny thing.  Humans are actually becoming less evolved.

In 14 minutes and 43 seconds,
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Scientific Racism
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@RoderickSpode
Human justice demands equality, not acceptance of social status based on race/ethnicity.
Well, the Hindus have been operating on acceptance of social status based on skin color for roughly 5000 years.
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Posted in:
Evidence in a religious forum
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@secularmerlin
Also, roughly 50% of Christians worldwide are Catholics, so any "appeal to popularity" must conclude that all other Christian denominations are false.
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Posted in:
Noah's ark makes no sense
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@Intelligence_06
Well, way to discourage me from learning history. I guess after reviewing my first exam, I basically wasted an hour for nothing.
Check this out if you have a spare 5 minutes and 16 seconds,
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Noah's ark makes no sense
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@Tradesecret
God made a world.
Ok,

The world stuck its fist up at God.
Well, god made them and raised them.

If your children hate you, can you really blame the kids?

God tolerated this for a while - and then when he could not anymore - he judged it.
Wow, this sounds like a case of incompetent-designer/parent AND impatient/homicidal outburst.

I mean, why would a god care if humans ignored it or made fun of it?  Can a god die if nobody believes in it?

If some kids hated me or ignored me, I certainly wouldn't slaughter them.
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Noah's ark makes no sense
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@rosends
So creation ex nihilo makes perfect sense but somehow you draw the line at a boat?
NOUMENON = GOD(S)
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Noah's ark makes no sense
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@BrotherDThomas
...which is obviously true because these other life forms exist today,
OBVIOUSLY.
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Noah's ark makes no sense
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@Lemming
@Intelligence_06
There is no such thing as "historical fact".

HISTORY = UNFALSIFIABLE HYPOTHESIS
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Noah's ark makes no sense
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@oromagi
There are many good reasons to argue that the existence of magical Gods is unproven.  I don't think finding fault with Genesis is one of them.
DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM.
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Noah's ark makes no sense
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@Lemming
Or a family of fisherman surviving a regional flood.
Or, the fertile crescent flooded on the regular and inspired a Sumerian myth,

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Noah's ark makes no sense
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@TheUnderdog
You might enjoy this,
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Tradesecret
I have never believed in religion. Religion ought to be abolished from my point of view. Yet, the definition today of religion is unhelpful so this is unlikely to happen anytime soon. I understand what you mean by adapting and maturing into an adult. I left my atheistic days behind when I realised it had nothing to offer of lasting substance. 
Not "religious" and also Not an Atheist.

Would you call yourself a DEIST?
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Tradesecret
They both demonstrate love and mercy and holiness and justice.
WTF.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@lady3keys
Evidence - yes!  It is evidence of history, not of truth.  A million sci-fi comics are not evidence that the Avengers actually existed.  But they are evidence of what people wanted to read about.
Is "evidence" admissible if it is not germane?
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Tradesecret
Religious books are such books that we do swear on.
More than a dozen documents and books -- including the US Constitution, Eastern Orthodox Bible and Quran -- were used to swear in officials of various ethnic and religious backgrounds. [LINK]

I'm not sure "swearing" on a pile of boiled wood validates the contents.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Tradesecret
I value logic and philosophy and good arguments.  
Duly noted.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Tradesecret
Revelation is a valid form of evidence.
Fantastic.

This validates my personal revelation, NANABOZHO IS THE ONE TRUE CREATOR!!

Also, this just in, ALL RELIGIONS ARE TRUE!!

Case closed.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Dr.Franklin
I believe in the Bible
The author of the Quran doesn't admit it is a "story".

Why don't you believe in the Quran and or the Book of Mormon?

I mean, they both describe Jesus (king of the jews), and I bet you like that, right!

Since the Quran and the Book of Mormon contain historically accurate accounts of Jesus, then they MUST BE TRUE!!
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Dr.Franklin
the hnidu book doesnt claim anyt religion, it is a philopshipy
The Gita is set in a narrative framework of a dialogue between Pandava prince Arjuna and his guide and charioteer Krishna.

Krishna (/ˈkrɪʃnə/,[9] Sanskrit pronunciation: [ˈkr̩ʂɳɐ]; Sanskrit: कृष्ण, IAST: Kṛṣṇa) is a major deity in Hinduism.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Tradesecret
The Bible is not a fictional book. Parts of it might be.
Full stop.

What parts "might be" fictional??
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@secularmerlin
So all the babies and the donkeys were evil? The donkeys man? Why kill all the donkeys? Oh and the babies. Them too.
Zoiks!
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@ludofl3x
And your point, "You cannot use the Bible to show that God is evil but reject the other cialims in it," would reflexively mean that to accept any claim in the bible, one must accept all claims in it as fact, not pick and choose which ones you like to draw a character in some way that is otherwise inconsistent with the book. 
Simply because "The Amazing Spider-Man" comics contain some historically accurate events and locations does not necessarily validate every single claim regarding the central character's super-human abilities.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Dr.Franklin
but the analogy is withiut merit as the writer admits it is a story
The author of the Book of Mormon doesn't admit it is a "story".

The author of the Quran doesn't admit it is a "story".

The author of the Bhagavad Gita doesn't admit it is a "story".

Do you believe these books are also 100% true?

And if you don't, why not?
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@secularmerlin
I am perfectly happy to entertain hypothetical situations and discuss the characteristics of fictional characters. 
Well stated.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Dr.Franklin
You cannot use the Bible to show that God is evil but reject the other cialims in it
It is however, a perfectly reasonable demonstration of LOGICAL INCOHERENCE.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@RoderickSpode
In other words, in contrast to "for the bible tells me so", it's "for Richard Dawkins, The Atheist Experience, Aron Ra, The Freedom From Religion Foundation, PBS/Nova, etc., tells me so".
A naked appeal to authority is not a reliable validation of any claim.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@secularmerlin
...although if it is harmful it would not reduce the harm if it were considered by otherwise rational adults to be real rather than fiction and taught to children as a moral standard that they are meant to accept uncritically. 
Well stated.
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Evidence in a religious forum
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@Tradesecret
It seems to be quite ok  to use the bible by non-believers as evidence of how bad and evil God is when they want to make a point about the evils of religion. So at that point it is considered ok to be evidence. 
Try this.

THE BIBLE IS 100% REAL TRUE FACT.

Now what?

How does any of this inform my daily life?

And who arbitrates the apparent logical contradictions?
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Should your ethics be justifiable with no appeal to authority?
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@simplybeourselves
If reason itself is your authority then I certainly don't think that it is irrational to appeal to that authority.
SOUND LOGIC (COHERENCE) is more fundamental than the concept of "authority".
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Should your ethics be justifiable with no appeal to authority?
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@Lemming
A man only needs to know how his car works enough that it does not endanger him or others, and get's him from point A to point B.
If "morality" is the "car" in this example, and the cars keep breaking down and crashing into people and destroying property, SHOULDN'T SOMEBODY INVESTIGATE?

Shouldn't we build a "safer" "car" that doesn't kill (maim and disfigure) as many people as the current model?

Maybe even something slightly "less wrong"?
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Should your ethics be justifiable with no appeal to authority?
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@MisterChris
If there is authority in a standard created by people, the authority is truly vested in the people that created it.
MORALITY is like LANGUAGE.

What is the "best" LANGUAGE?
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Should your ethics be justifiable with no appeal to authority?
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@MisterChris
Morality itself is an appeal to an objective standard (i.e. authority).
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY

This moral framework is an appeal to human instinct.

It is not "objective".

It is not "authoritative".
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ATHEIST DOGMA
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@lady3keys
All of these would still amount to no free will though, even the random event.
That seems to be the key.

If a "best move" is obvious, then the grandmaster essentially has "no choice" (no "freewill").

If a "best move" is non-obvious, then the grandmaster essentially has "no choice" ("random" =/= "will").

Acceptance of a goal (motive/desire) dictates one's action.
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ATHEIST DOGMA
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@lady3keys
Can you modify your desire to modify your desires?
lol.  Certainly.  Just get a good friend or family member to give you a painful shock every time you appear to be trying.  The real challenge would be in defining what qualifies as "trying".  Or better yet, have a shocking device implanted.  Program it, with the help of a neurosurgeon, to identify any attempt to reprogram a desire.  It wouldn't take long to ensure you never try anything like that again (assuming the neurosurgeon knows how to define "what qualifies as trying" inside your neural network of course).
Preventing themselves from being modified is a hallmark of motivation hierarchies.

In 10 minutes and 35 seconds,
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ATHEIST DOGMA
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@zedvictor4
Is consciousness more than awareness through perception...
Computer passes self-awareness test,
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ATHEIST DOGMA
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@lady3keys
But our formative experiences are more than merely firmware and certainly not just our Operating System.
I'd say your instincts and basic hardware interface (amygdala/hippocampus) are firmware.

And your primary spoken language and inculcated (pre-verbal) value system (ontology) is your operating system.

You can shuffle and modify your (top level) programs, but you can only modify and or install new programs if your operating system allows.

Amygdala Hijack explained in 3 minutes,
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Posted in:
ATHEIST DOGMA
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@lady3keys
No decision is made in a vacuum.  This is where randomness comes into play.
Imagine a novice facing a grandmaster in a game of chess.

The novice can freely move any piece anywhere on the board at their whim, unconstrained by knowledge.

The grandmaster can often narrow their options to a single "best move" by drawing on their experience.

The grandmaster may find themselves at times facing two or three "best moves" that may seem equally likely to provide a "win".

Only in these rare cases would the grandmaster imagine they have a "free" choice.

And functionally, the choice between two (apparently) equal "best moves" is equivalent to a coin-flip (indistinguishable from random).

Is this the type of decision that would allow for "freewill"?

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ATHEIST DOGMA
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@lady3keys
I just keep hoping that our newfound abilities vis-a-vis our prefrontal cortex, allow us to reprogram our tendencies.
Can you modify your desire to modify your desires?
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ATHEIST DOGMA
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@lady3keys
Good example.
My FIRST COMPLIMENT!!!   At least I think so.  I may have missed a "good point" here or there if it was followed by calling me IGNORANT or STUPID.  :)
I admire your willingness to grapple with this topic.
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Covid19 Corona Virus
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@ebuc
Perhaps it's more fundamental than that.

Church services and other social gatherings can not be outlawed.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states. [LINK]
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Every component is integral and necessary.

Without "your mind", NOUMENON could not "exist".

Particular aspects appear to wax and wane, but that is merely due to our practically infinitesimal perceptual scope.
So then how do you reconcile your description with its definition?
Please make your perceived conflict explicit.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Wouldn't this suggest that logic is independent of the mind? And if this is the claim, how so?
Logic is an integral aspect of "the mind".

Logic cannot exist "independently" of "the mind".

And "the mind" cannot exist without logic.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Then how can one perceive it, let alone identify it in the form of definition?
Definitions themselves are (unfortunately) not limited by logic.

Any number of terms and concepts can be defined by contradictory (incoherent) combinations of primary axioms.

For example, "nothingness" is incoherent (there can be no such "thing" as "nothingness" because it could only "exist" no-where at no-time).

Also, "infinite" is incoherent (any "thing" truly "without limit" would necessarily supersede all other "things" in existence, rendering variation impossible).

In a similar manner, "objectivity" is defined (by common definitions) as "incomprehensible" and "unobservable" ("independent" of human observation).

The ontological fallacy does not magically "make real" any concept that can be defined and imagined (saying "gods" does not make "gods" exist).
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Wouldn't that conclude that we know nothing. Because whatever we do understand will be a fraction of an infinite progression (or regression dependent on how you see it.) Any constant outside of infinity over infinity produces zero, right?
Whatever we do understand is a fraction of an incomprehensible (not infinite) progression.

Whatever is beyond our epistemological limit is of unknown quantity/quality.

This emphasizes (magnifies) the relative importance of what we know.

The very concept of "important" only exists as a byproduct of our own ignorance.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Yes but the understanding of these phenomena are reflected by the scope of our consciousnesses. Would the data be the same if the limits of our  consciousnesses were either broken or expanded? Wouldn't that beg for new limits?
The model is flexible.

Some minds know more.

Some minds know less.

In all cases, there remains some ability to discern between what one knows and what one doesn't know.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Yes, but the difference between the eye and the brain presumably can be "observed" (?) by an independent party. How is this done with the mind and NOUMENON? Can one see one's own brain?
Your mind can know what it knows.

Your mind can also know that it doesn't know everything.

This creates a clear (modal) distinction (but NOT a fundamental distinction).
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Covid19 Corona Virus
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@ebuc
I'm not "against" wearing masks or accepting vaccines.

I'm only against making these prophylactics mandatory.
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ATHEIST DOGMA
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@zedvictor4
Biology is certainly hardware.
Ok,

Instinct/inherent data, is an operating system.
Instinct/basic hardware interface is firmware.

All acquired  data uploaded/downloaded to memory is software.
Inculcated value imprinting is some mix of programming language and operating system.

I think that "firmware" is an inappropriate analogy.
Instinct/basic hardware interface (firmware) is much more difficult to modify than daily conscious "decision making" (software/subroutines/macros).
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