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3RU7AL

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The Standard Argument Against Free Will (TSAAFW)
"If you know not, then you can say not that it's linear." - this is a classic appeal to ignorance.

An appeal to ignorance is commonly used to defend unfalsifiable claims (like bigfootspacealiens).

Here's the problem.

There are only two possible options.

(EITHER)

(1) your thoughts (and actions) are contextual (caused by previous experiences, including your biology).

(OR)

(2) your thoughts (and actions) are random (uncaused by any previous experiences).

If you pick #1, then your thoughts (and actions) relate to your memory and the world around you (contextual). This means your thoughts (and actions) are potentially USEFUL TO YOU AND OR OTHERS.

If you pick #2, then your thoughts (and actions) don't necessarily relate to anything at all. And as a matter of fact, statistically, it would be extremely unlikely that any RANDOM thought or action would be even remotely or incidentally USEFUL TO YOU AND OR OTHERS.

Now you might try to mix the two options, some caused, some uncaused, and that's fine.

Your useful thoughts and actions MUST BE CAUSED.

YOur "free" thoughts and actions are TAUTOLOGICALLY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE (99.999% of the time).

SOURCE CONVO
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@zedvictor4
I'm just adding "hypothesis" to the list.
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Test Your Morality
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@Athias
It's about that which we ought to do, an argument that's fundamentally normative. And therefore, subject to personal values.
Well stated.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@zedvictor4
For me belief is no more than a guess.
Or a hypothesis.
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
...if we cannot find common ground in basic mathematical truths such as 2+2=4.
Of course we CAN agree that 2 + 2 = 4, if that's your claim.

Please try not to put words in my mouth.

What I'm trying to point out to you is that (IFF) someone claimed 2 + 2 = 5 (THEN) I'd be interested in hearing their explanation.

I'm certainly not going to simply "take their word for it".

Everyone should be able to make their AXIOMS explicit. 

If you can't explain yourself, you shouldn't expect anyone to believe you.
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
Your question is a false dichotomy ("but if I then told you that 2 + 2 = 5 what would you think? Would you simply say I was going against popular opinion or against reality?").

I would not say either one of those statements.  I would simply ask you to explain.

(IFF) "because numbers are not associated with units like apples" (THEN) how could "2 + 2 = 5" be "against reality"?

Wouldn't it be more precise to say, "it's apparently against the purely abstract rules of mathemajicks?"

YOur "question" cannot be answered unless you make your definitions explicit.

You're the one making the claim "2 + 2 = 5", not me.

YOu need to explain yourself (support your own claim).
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
For example, perhaps 2 bligmops + 2 bligmops = 5 apples.

Where a bligmop = 1.25 apples.
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
Yes true, that is the way we understand it, but if I then told you that 2+2 = 5 what would you think? Would you simply say I was going against popular opinion or against reality?
I would ask you to make your definitions (of "2" and "+" and "=" and "5") EXPLICIT.

In the exact same way, if someone makes a vague claim (bald assertion, appeal to ignorance) like, "there is only one god", I will ask them to make their definition of "god" explicit.

In the exact same way, if someone makes a vague claim (bald assertion, appeal to ignorance) like, "freewill is for-realzies", I will ask them to make their definitions of "freewill" and "real" explicit.

In the exact same way, if someone makes a vague claim (bald assertion, appeal to ignorance) like, "morality is objective", I will ask them to make their definitions of "morality" and "objective" explicit.
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
I am wondering if you are a naturalist, as many of your statements assume everything is material. 
Mmmm, nope. [LINK]
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
Why is 2 + 2 = 4?
For the exact same reason a bliggablorth and a flamcromp are both types of grensvolds.

TAUTOLOGY.

It's true by definition.

"2" is rigorously defined and there is a broad consensus among initiates of the occult order of "mathemajicks" that if you double it, then you get "4".

It's simply a restatement of the definitions.  The "answer" matches the definitions.

To anyone unfamiliar with (uninitiated) "mathemajicks" a "2" is just a nonsensical meaningless squiggle (just like bliggablorth).

It's an astronomical leap of logic to say, 1 + 1 = 2 therefore I love you.
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
Here's a question: why is 2+2=4?
TAUTOLOGY.
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@logicae
...you need to understand objectivity.
Please explain "objectivity".

And please avoid all forms of sample-bias and opinion.
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Proofs of Objective Morality
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@TheRealNihilist
It is basically a feels arguments. I feel that this is true therefore it is true.
Moral intuition is an emotion.

In the same way that freewill is an emotion.
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Test Your Morality
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@TwoMan
"Bad" and "immoral" are synonyms for each other according to the dictionary. They can mean essentially the same thing. Therefore, if an action is immoral, it is tautologically bad. Any action can be objectively determined to be good or bad depending on where it resides on a given moral scale. The trickier question of yours is that of value. I can imagine an immoral act that is of negative value to one person and positive value to another (theft, for example). An individual's perspective relative to an action would decide its value.
Well stated.
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Please list your top 5 most important issues and your positions on them
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@RationalMadman
...and then working on the pseudo-democracies to have genuine elections and democratic candidates that actually care about their people, animals, environment etc.
Try this FIX.
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Please list your top 5 most important issues and your positions on them
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@Alec
My top 5 most important issues are:






In no particular order.
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Anti-Anti-Fascist = (EITHER) Pro-Fascist (OR) Pacifist
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@SirAnonymous
I appreciate your incisive questions and civil tone.
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DARTvivor S3 - Japan! Sign-ups!
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@LordLuke
Wanna play? It starts Wednesday.
Thanks for the invite, but I think I'll observe.
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
Here's another example, 


Was the first video game called a "video game" at the time?

Or was it only retroactively considered a "video game"?
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@EtrnlVw
Excellent point.

Magnum Mysterium

The Sioux call it "Wakan Tanka".

The Jews call it "Ein Sof".

The Chinese call it "Tao".

The Hindus call it "Brahman".

Kant calls it "NOUMENON".

I call it, "NTURTTGgTS" (Noumenon, The Ultimate Reality, The Truth, [G]god, The Source).
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@ludofl3x
These are extraordinarily meaningless claims. 

Your identity cannot validate or invalidate your logic.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@zedvictor4
For now I will refer to it as G.O.D as this fit's nicely with my current way of thinking. 
Ok, great.

So, ONTOLOGICAL differences aside, we all agree now.
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Magnum Mysterium
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Just watched the video. It is a good quality video but I don't see how it dismantles Abrahamic law. It just summarizes the book of Job, and a very short summary at that leaving out what I think are the best bits.
What stood out to me was the part near the end, when "YHWH" actually "explains itself".

The case is an appeal to complexity, which is a classic appeal to ignorance.

I'm so great and smart and you're a worm who can't possibly comprehend the true scope of my ultimate genius.

And (IFF) you accept that argument as fact (THEN) "YHWH" is incomprehensible and any words or laws attributed to it are twisted and unreliable "interpretations" by mere mortal worms.

It also drives home the point that being rich =/= good and being poor =/= bad.

I also find it shocking that the story seems to imply that after the death of your entire immediate family, everything is just great when you get remarried and have double the number of kids.

How luck is that Job guy!!  Because every0one knows that your immediate family are just, you know, basically FUNGIBLE ASSETS.
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Magnum Mysterium
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@Barney
Imagine how shocked I was.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Mopac
The point is, I am not expressing my opinion, but what the church itself professes.
Back to your "personal experience" point, I've encountered literally hundreds of Christians (and Christian music and Christian television shows and Christian movies) in my lifetime and you're the first one who ever made a point out of using the term, "Ultimate Reality".

And I have trouble believing that's sheer coincidence.

It may very well be buried in ancient doctrine, but I've never heard anyone mention it before meeting you.

Mopac uses the word "God" differently than most Christians.
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Magnum Mysterium
And it's almost identical to this 9 minute masterpiece, [LINK]
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Magnum Mysterium
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@Mopac
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Mopac
But even The Roman Cathllic Church recognizes that God is The Ultimate Reality. 
Perhaps they simply choose not to harp on the point.
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Magnum Mysterium
Click to watch 7 minutes, [LINK]

One of my Christian friends shared this high-quality presentation with me.

It basically uses the book of Job to illustrate that humans are ill-equipped to determine what is ultimately "good" or "evil".

Taken at face-value, it basically dismantles Abrahamic Law.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Mopac
Mopac uses the word "God" differently than most Christians.
Most Christians you know.
50% of people who call themselves "Christians" follow the Roman Catholic Church (not your EO Church).

Your interpretation of "true Christianity" is different than most Christians.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@disgusted
If we are talking about The Ultimate Reality,
But you're not.
You are talking about a fictional character created thousands of years ago as a member of the Canaanite Pantheon.
Mopac uses the word "God" differently than most Christians.

Mopac doesn't believe "The Bible" is literal and infallible.

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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Mopac
The point here is to create strife and confusion, not a common understanding.
I see.

So as long as everyone agrees with you, there will be no strife or confusion?

Because everyone who DISagrees with you is evil and loves strife and confusion?
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Mopac
If we are talking about The Ultimate Reality, it cannot be subject to another reality. The Ultimate Reality is the source of all existence. It neither came to be or changes. If this was the case, time would be lord over God. This is nonsense. God is Lord over time.

These are things that can be inferred from contemplating what ultimate reality means, and understanding the implications.
Hallelujah!
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
It seems to reasonably reflect my experiences as well, and from what I can gather, it does not conflict with the data I've accumulated on "others".
But all that data consists of your personally conditioned data.
You can debug a program by running the program.  That's what I'm doing here.  You're assisting me.  Error checking.  Testing for logical coherence.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
Generally speaking.  There may be a few exceptions, but those exceptions are incapable of intellectual interaction (self-excluding).
How is this a general rule when the rule is also subject to its own description? And there are exceptions that are incapable of intellectual interaction, then how are you aware of them?
Have you ever seen an ant?  Or a newborn infant?
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
Ultimately, yes.  Yes, the issue IS whether you find it interesting.
No it isn't. I do find it interesting, and my participation conveys as much. But that's what I meant by "significance."
Please feel free to explain.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
For example, What significance does the statement, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" bear to anyone other than you?
Except that I'm not the one arguing that belief is intrasubjective. I'm using his premise to demonstrate contradiction.
The only thing you've proven is that you find significance in this conversation (which answers your own question).

Your participation is de facto acknowledgement of your interest.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
Because I'm communicating with you.  This logically means our brains must necessarily share basic similarities.
Once again, are we? I could be a figment of your imagination especially if one is going to argue that belief is a personal set of conditioned data. Your response is subject to that which you believe to be true about the "human" brain.
You could be a figment of my imagination, however, you are a very persistent and scientifically verifiable figment of my imagination, which makes you functionally identical to a REAL-TRUE-FACT.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
You've been "conditioned" (inculcated, programmed by instinct and primary childhood experiences) similarly to myself (inter-subjectively).
How were we conditioned similarly?
Presumably you're a human who speaks English and knows how to use a computer.  You remember being a helpless child.  You have certain foods that you prefer over others.  You are intelligent and thoughtful.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
Psychology is based on this idea (other minds) and its EFFICACY is established by PROPAGANDA/MARKETING/PUBLIC RELATIONS techniques.
"Established" is too indulgent. And if psychology is efficacious in manipulating the formulation of decisions and experiences defined personally conditioned data (e.g. Propaganda, Marketing, Public Relations, etc.) then does this not undermine the subjectivity of individual experience? Or better yet, individuality?
Although efficacious, it is not 100% fool-proof.  That's why marketers are ever so interested in children (basically fish-in-a-barrel) and the magical "18-24" (idiots with money) demographic.  Most people develop some immunity to NEW propaganda after graduating although many retain the commercial jingles and other prejudices acquired in their youth for the rest of their lives (that's why nostalgia is so powerful).
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
We share basic hardware (biological, instinctual) similarities and basic firmware (primary childhood experience) similarities.

This is evidenced by our ability to communicate.  These (inter-subjective) similarities are prerequisite to our intellectual interaction.
Are we really communicating? What is it that we're communicating? Isn't everything you've read concerning my response filtered through the prism of your personal set of conditioned data? What is the difference between my statements and figments of your experience?
I believe we are communicating and I believe you would abandon the conversation if you did not believe we were communicating.

Your typed words are verifiable data points.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@zedvictor4
I for now will label the possible enabler of a possible ultimate reality as G.O.D. Which is an acronym.
I call it NOUMENON.

Or, "NTURTTGgTS" = "Noumenon, The Ultimate Reality, The Truth, [G]god, The Source".
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
The "answer" is, (EITHER) you find it interesting (OR) you don't.
The issue isn't whether I find it interesting;
Ultimately, yes.  Yes, the issue IS whether you find it interesting.

...zedvictor proposed a metric of belief to which all are subject, no?
Generally speaking.  There may be a few exceptions, but those exceptions are incapable of intellectual interaction (self-excluding).

Then you argue that it's intrasubjective.
Exactly like when you find yourself speaking to someone else in a dream.

So then zedvictor's metric subjects only his own experiences.
It seems to reasonably reflect my experiences as well, and from what I can gather, it does not conflict with the data I've accumulated on "others".

If you're going to argue that it's instead "inter"-subjective, then I ask, what is inter-subjevtivity if not a composite of purely intra-subjective experiences?
Exactly like when you find yourself speaking to someone else in a dream.

Can you learn about someone who only exists in a dream?  Can someone who only exists in a dream teach you something about yourself?
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
You can't honestly ask, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" without turning that question back on itself (back on yourself).

It's self-defeating.
How so?
For example, What significance does the statement, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" bear to anyone other than you?
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
Keep in mind, it is the epitome of HUBRIS to share your opinion with another person.
How so?
Simply by making a statement (any statement) you are implicitly raising your ego above others.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
You might find it "useful" to (EITHER) understand how your own brain works (OR) as insight into how to better communicate with me.
How can you know how "my" brain works?
Because I'm communicating with you.  This logically means our brains must necessarily share basic similarities.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
It is a description of my understanding of how the human brain works.
How can you make any conclusions about the human brain, when your belief is constrained to your personal set of conditioned data? What does "human" denote outside of your personally conditioned data?
The "other minds (brains)" hypothesis is a coherent framework for understanding the actions of "others".

Psychology is based on this idea (other minds) and its EFFICACY is established by PROPAGANDA/MARKETING/PUBLIC RELATIONS techniques.

You've been "conditioned" (inculcated, programmed by instinct and primary childhood experiences) similarly to myself (inter-subjectively).
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
Belief is YOUR evaluation of YOUR personal set of conditioned data (INTRA-SUBJECTIVE).
So then, how is this:

YOU were largely programmed (INCULCATED) to believe most of what you think that you believe (BASE PROGRAMMING, FIRMWARE).

Once YOU have been formatively programmed (INCULCATED, BIOS FLASHED) it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme (FIRMWARE UPDATE). It's very difficult to change your mind (RE-PROGRAM, DE-PROGRAM).
not subject to your first point? Do we share a personal set of conditioned data?
We share basic hardware (biological, instinctual) similarities and basic firmware (primary childhood experience) similarities.

This is evidenced by our ability to communicate.  These (inter-subjective) similarities are prerequisite to our intellectual interaction.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Vader
What? Yes you can. It's very easy to do so actually. 
Please elaborate.
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...it is you who choose not to believe God
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@Athias
So then what significance does this: bear to anyone other than you?
It is a description of my understanding of how the human brain works.

You might find it "useful" to (EITHER) understand how your own brain works (OR) as insight into how to better communicate with me.

Keep in mind, it is the epitome of HUBRIS to share your opinion with another person.

You can't honestly ask, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" without turning that question back on itself (back on yourself).

It's self-defeating.

The "answer" is, (EITHER) you find it interesting (OR) you don't.

Please challenge my axioms and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.
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