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@TheRealNihilist
Well stated.Even though I think cenorship is bad if people knew what was fact and opinion it wouldn't be a problem.
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@TheRealNihilist
So one person instead of multiple people? What if it was a joint effort into lets creating AI? Who gets sole ownership to the invention?
The minimum 1% (or whatever they can negotiate) would be split between all patent/copyright holders.
Why 20 years again?
Because it is a reasonable amount of time to build a business (and reward you for your innovation), but not enough time for you to retire for life (and for your children and grandchildren to retire for life) and revert to generations of pure rent-seeking (monopoly-seeking) behavior (like disney).
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@TheRealNihilist
Explain to them what epistemological limits are and logical fallacies such as "appeal to authority".How about people who have disdain to things they don't understand therefore don't actually take what you said to heart?
Most people are skeptical about at least one thing. That makes a good starting point to build common-ground.
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@TheRealNihilist
I've been a LOGICZOMBIE for about 3 years now and I've converted at least 3 people that I know of.How much time did you spend with them and do you think your asking too much from all/most/some people? The / is whatever you decide to choose.
If you are capable of speech you are capable of logically-coherent-skepticism.
I'm not sure how much time I spent converting people, it mostly felt like entertainment (edutainment?) to me anyway.
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@TheRealNihilist
Are you suggesting that medical research should be secret?It is a hypothetical. Do you think there is information too dangerous to know about?
No.
I reject the myth of the "noble lie" wholesale.
Have you watched the recent Chernobyl miniseries yet?
Did reality unravel when the Pentagon-Papers were published? No, people just got smarter.
Did reality unravel when Snowden and Assange dumped their "shocking" secret data? No, people just got smarter.
Only private-citizens should have iron-clad privacy.
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@TheRealNihilist
It's a primary AXIOM.Human rights must begin with a right to one's own person.Can you define axiom?
An AXIOM is the basic building block of a Sound-Logical-Statement.
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@TheRealNihilist
How is this not obvious.Do you accept the consequences that can happen?
What are you so afraid of?
The same skepticism and logic that will protect us from corporate liars will also protect us from AJ.
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@HistoryBuff
I mean, the NSA is already recording all internet traffic, email and phone conversations for CITIZENS already. It's only fair they record everything about PUBLIC OFFICIALS as well, except it needs to be made part of the public record.Your argument is that the government is doing something terrible, so we should make sure they do that terrible thing to everyone. That is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. We should be making that illegal.
It's already illegal.
That's the problem. Who watches the watchers?
I'm saying that they already do it to CITIZENS, which means the COULD do it for politicians ONLY.
I'm advocating iron-clad privacy for private-citizens and radical transparency for elected officials.
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@TheRealNihilist
While I agree that drawing a bright line between FACT and OPINION is priority #1,What is your plan on resolving this?
By explaining it to as many people as I can.
Quanta = verifiable REAL-TRUE-FACTS and or what is logically necessary (TAUTOLOGY).
Quanta are necessarily Emotionally-meaningless.
Qualia = personal, private, experiential, imaginary, unverifiable, unfalsifiable, gnostic knowledge and OPINION.
Qualia are necessarily Emotionally-meaningful.
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@TheRealNihilist
Private citizens acting in a private capacity should have absolute and inalienable rights to their person and home and data-privacy.So people should be allowed to associate with Alex Jones?
How is this not obvious.
Where does this "inalienable rights" come from?
It's a primary AXIOM.
Human rights must begin with a right to one's own person.
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@HistoryBuff
And then you make all elected officials wear body-cameras and phones that record everything they say and their location at all times (saved to a permanent public record blockchain) as long as they serve as an elected official.This seems wildly restrictive. I mean I am all for accountability for elected officials, but people also have a right to privacy. I mean you would be taping them going to the bathroom, making personal plans, recording personal data (pin numbers, etc) every time they looked at them. It is completely not feasible.
Here's the problem. If you allow public officials privacy within their own homes, that leaves the door open for them to conduct nefarious deals from their homes.
If you allow public officials privacy when speaking with their friends and relatives, that leaves the door open for them to coordinate nefarious activities with their friends and relatives who could then conduct nefarious activities on their behalf.
Perhaps, within their own homes there could be a separate system of recordings overseen by a system of rotating ombudsman.
Ombudsmen would have full access to the activities of all other ombudsmen (to keep them honest), but those records would only be released to the public if a violation was detected and confirmed by multiple ombudsmen (and after a time period of let's say 30 years).
I propose that private citizens should have an iron-clad right to privacy (the immutable and non-transferable right to control their image and voice and data) and a presumption of innocence in the face of any accusation (a high standard of evidence must be met prior to any arrest and or public release of the accusation).
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@HistoryBuff
You hamstring con-artists by teaching children how to use logic to distinguish FACT from OPINION.You think you can teach every child to be smarter than people who have spent their lives specializing in lying to people? That is just guaranteed to fail.
The liars are the idiots. They've been using the exact same playbook for hundreds of years. Teach the playbook to the kids.
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@HistoryBuff
you can't ban indirect money. You can't ban issue ads. Remember? Zero-Censorship.Of course you can. And if you want actually free elections then you have to. If a billionaire can flood the airwaves with ads pushing his narrative he can drown out any other narrative he wants. That is how the same stale ideas have been sold and resold to the american people for decades. If you want new ideas, you need to be sure that people who don't want new ideas to spread can't dominate media.Truly free media, is media solely controlled by the rich and powerful. it isn't free at all.
That's why it's critical to inoculate the masses with the ability to discern the difference between FACT and OPINION.
It's a bottom-up fix.
Your proposing a top-down fix.
No top-down fix can be effectively implemented unless you're the one already at the top.
And if you're at the top, you will fall into the exact same traps that the current top-dogs suffer from.
The popular metaphor for this is the "one-ring" from the Lord-of-the-Rings stories.
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@TheRealNihilist
This single activity will dismantle government corruption and corporate corruption and media lies.If everyone made a good faith approach to it then I would say yes but how do you get people to do that? Don't talk about kids more so Republicans, Religious folk and lefties as well (commies and socialists).
Most people are led-astray by appeals to personality (I like this author and choose to believe everything they say) and appeals to authority (this source is considered the best by most people and therefore I have chosen to believe everything it teaches).
When you understand that these are logical fallacies and recognize that each claim must stand on its own merit, that's a game-changer.
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@TheRealNihilist
Spotting logical fallacies is literally child's-play.Saying this doesn't help them understand. You are basically saying they are worse than children or implying that to be so.
I would compare it to a video game.
Just because an adult can't manage to beat Super-Mario-Brothers, doesn't mean they are incapable of beating Super-Mario-Brothers.
If I demonstrate that a 10-year-old can do it, this demonstration strongly implies that if they spend a little time practicing, they can probably do it as well.
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@TheRealNihilist
I've seen 10-year-olds do it.10 year olds are more malleable than grown adults. I can't imagine how an adult would be able to commit to a career change for being in it for a long time so I can't imagine a Religious person pretty much saying well most of my life is in vain. I think it is a difficult pill to swallow. If it wasn't clear I was speaking about majority of cases. I'll try and find a link.
Most adults I've interacted with believe their views are (mostly) logical.
From this common ground (logic) it's a simple matter of identifying logical fallacies and explaining epistemological limits.
For example, most religious people are quite astute at identifying logical fallacies in OTHER religions.
From this common ground (religious skepticism) it's a simple matter of identifying logical fallacies and explaining Uniform-Standards-of-Evidence.
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@TheRealNihilist
We need to explain to these people that sifting FACT from FICTION is EASY.A person can simply come back to and say, are you calling me stupid for not conforming to your worldview?
I would tell them that they are super intelligent for not trusting any information they can't verify logically.
Skepticism is the gateway to coherent logic.
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@TheRealNihilist
People endlessly moan about "lies-in-the-media" and "untrustworthy-politicians" and "hate-speech" but all of these are just RED-HERRINGS.What do you do about people who value opinions over facts because they have a mistrust over highly regarded institutions?
Explain to them what epistemological limits are and logical fallacies such as "appeal to authority".
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@TheRealNihilist
By spreading the word, and by living as a LOGICZOMBIE.What would be like the turnover?Example for every 1 logiczombie there is x amount of people becoming one as well.
I've been a LOGICZOMBIE for about 3 years now and I've converted at least 3 people that I know of.
If every LOGICZOMBIE converts 1 person a year, this movement will spread exponentially (doubling every year, world domination in 24 years).
If you double 4, 24 times, you get 6.7 billion.
We just need a couple of mid-range names for this thing to really catch-fire.
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@TheRealNihilist
They should be strictly limited to 20 years.Is this arbitrary or do you have reasoning for why it should be 20 years?
The original intent of copyright and patent laws were to PROTECT INDIVIDUAL INVENTORS.
The 20 year time-frame is to allow the INDIVIDUAL INVENTOR to be able to earn a reasonable amount of money for their "original" idea or song or performance or machine or other process or innovation.
I would propose that these copyrights and patents cannot be owned (only licensed) by corporations, but can only be owned by the original inventors with a minimum of 1% of all profits derived from the copyright and or patent required to go directly to the original inventor (or their family and or heirs) for a time period NOT TO EXCEED 20 YEARS. At which point the copyright and or patent becomes 100% PUBLIC-DOMAIN.
This policy is good for consumers because they can get free or nearly free music and movies and medicines and machines that are over 20 years old.
This policy is good for creative individuals because they can create mashups and or modifications of games and movies and music without fear of GETTING SUED INTO OBLIVION.
This policy is good for small businesses because anybody can open a shop and sell copies of PUBLIC-DOMAIN games movies and music and or combinations of or tee-shirts of these works. They can even build cars and or phones and or any other device they wish that was made over 20 years earlier.
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@TheRealNihilist
Secret information is the rotten-core that allows corruption to thrive.Do you think no information should be gated?
Private citizens acting in a private capacity should have absolute and inalienable rights to their person and home and data-privacy.
Example of something I would use is what if science has researched all possible ways in finding a cure for a cancer but ultimately failed.
Are you suggesting that medical research should be secret?
Should science have a duty to come out and say we haven't found a cure for cancer pretty much saying to a lot of people, you can't live healthy lives while also impacting the people that care about them.
I'm not sure what "problem" you're describing. If we want our media and politicians and corporate overlords to be HONEST, then we need to be HONEST about EVERYTHING.
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@TheRealNihilist
While I agree that drawing a bright line between FACT and OPINION is priority #1,What is your plan on resolving this?
By spreading the word, and by living as a LOGICZOMBIE.
People endlessly moan about "lies-in-the-media" and "untrustworthy-politicians" and "hate-speech" but all of these are just RED-HERRINGS.
We need to explain to these people that sifting FACT from FICTION is EASY.
I've seen 10-year-olds do it.
Spotting logical fallacies is literally child's-play.
This single activity will dismantle government corruption and corporate corruption and media lies.
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@Athias
How would you solve the "free-rider" problem?By admitting that there's no free-rider "problem."
There's always a "free-rider" problem.
Does your perfect society care for orphans?
Does your perfect society care for the elderly?
Does your perfect society care for the mentally unstable?
These are all examples of "free-riders".
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@Athias
Everything you do is public knowledge.
Public service is contingent on the deferment of authority. If people as you say are prone to mobster mentalities, what's to stop the public servants from using said authority to start a mutiny?
How would they do that? All laws (including new laws) would necessarily be logically coherent with the established PRIMARY AXIOMS.
Their duties would be clearly established. If they neglected their duties or otherwise subverted their duties, they would be removed. They would be constantly under public surveillance.
They would take a fiduciary oath of office.
An ombudsman (/ˈɒmbʊdzmən/, also US: /-bədz-, -bʌdz-/,[1][2][3] Swedish: [²ɔmːbʉːdsˌman]), ombudsperson, ombud, or public advocate is an official who is charged with representing the interests of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of mal-administration or a violation of rights. The ombudsman is usually appointed by the government or by parliament but with a significant degree of independence. In some countries, an inspector general, citizen advocate or other official may have duties similar to those of a national ombudsman and may also be appointed by a legislature. Below the national level, an ombudsman may be appointed by a state, local, or municipal government. Unofficial ombudsmen may be appointed by, or even work for, a corporation such as a utility supplier, newspaper, NGO, or professional regulatory body. [WIKI]
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@Athias
Can you supply any examples of a modern-day country that has a crippled government where "free-people-can-finally-thrive"??A controlled modern day example? No. Government is everywhere.
Not really.
There are plenty of de facto lawless regions around the globe.
You could move to northern Australia for example.
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@Athias
And you don't think they'll just switch over to these guys when the government is eliminated?Of course they would. (They employ mercenaries currently.) The difference is, "our" mode of interaction wouldn't be fundamentally codified by aggression. In the event they send their armies, they'd be the criminals. And "we" can respond accordingly.
No government = No crime = Fend for your flipping self = Mobster-Ethics
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@TheRealNihilist
that everyone needs to be able to use LOGIC to clearly distinguish between FACT and OPINION so we don't get herded like sheep by the mass-mediaYou know this is pivotal to win the information with zero censorship right?I think everyone's ability to use LOGIC to clearly distinguish between FACT and OPINION is more important that zero censorship. Without LOGIC to clearly distinguish between FACT and OPINION you have what is going on now. People supporting communism and nazism. Even though I think cenorship is bad if people knew what was fact and opinion it wouldn't be a problem.
While I agree that drawing a bright line between FACT and OPINION is priority #1, I believe censorship (all types) is also a fundamental problem.
Secret information is the rotten-core that allows corruption to thrive.
Never-ending Copyrights and Patents and proprietary information are Weapons-of-the-Powerful used to stifle creativity and suppress small businesses. They should be strictly limited to 20 years. And exclusions for "prior art" must be strictly enforced.
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@HistoryBuff
The 0 censorship part I don't really agree with though. There are things that should be illegal to say. Libel laws for example are a form of censorship, but they are needed to curb slander.
If you teach people to distinguish FACT from OPINION, then slander will solve itself. Hate speech will be categorized as broad-brush ad-hominems and the people advocating hate will be asked to support their statements with FACTS.
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@HistoryBuff
You can't ban indirect money. You can't ban issue ads. Remember? Zero-Censorship.I agree with parts of what you are saying. The backroom deals, insider trading, nepotism are all things that should be fought against. But sadly, this kind of thing is also human nature. Alot of politicians say they will fight against these things, but once they get some power they find that these things are useful. I'm not certain how you get rid of that stuff. But a good start is banning all private funding of elections. No more super pacs, no more billionaires funding campaigns for shitty candidates.
You hamstring con-artists by teaching children how to use logic to distinguish FACT from OPINION.
And then you make all elected officials wear body-cameras and phones that record everything they say and their location at all times (saved to a permanent public record blockchain) as long as they serve as an elected official.
I mean, the NSA is already recording all internet traffic, email and phone conversations for CITIZENS already. It's only fair they record everything about PUBLIC OFFICIALS as well, except it needs to be made part of the public record.
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@PGA2.0
The blastocyst/zygote/embryo/fetus has the exact same legal status as a tumor and or a parasite.If this is going where I think it is going regarding the unborn, the unborn is not guilty but innocent of any wrongdoing.
What is done to any tumor and or parasite that resides INSIDE my body is my business and my business alone.
If I want to keep it, I can keep it.
If I want to have it removed surgically, that is my right.
It is not a CITIZEN.
Yes, it is "alive" in exactly the same way a tumor is alive and a parasite is alive.
HoWEver, it is not a CITIZEN.
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@Alec
If landlords were required to reduce their prices by the property tax amount, then it basically saves the poor person money. The hard part would be forcing them to do it, but companies often obey the law, otherwise many legal workers would get paid less than minimum wage.
Yeah, but then (without a real-estate tax) how would the government steal land from poor people?
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@ethang5
Wouldn't this need to be determined by an actual International Court?When American citizens vote the UN into office sure. Till then, our sovereignty rests with the duly elected government.An international court telling us to side with murderous thugs against a civilized people can be dismissed.Conservatives follow reason, not pc dogma.
Sure, USA policy is USA policy and nobody can do anything about that.
But what I'm curious about is WHY would they issue an OPINION about "international law"?
WHY not just say "we lovers israeli's settlementses"?
In other words, if USA-don't-care-about "international law" why even mention it at all?
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The flip-side to zero-censorship is
that everyone needs to be able to use LOGIC to clearly distinguish between FACT and OPINION so we don't get herded like sheep by the mass-media (PR = Propaganda = Cambridge Analytica).
For example, we all get suckered when we fall for terms like, "good for consumers".
It sounds nice. It even gives me a warm feeling inside when I hear it mentioned in the news.
But what they're hiding is, that while whatever BS they're pushing may seem "good for consumers" it's definitely not good for small businesses and it's not good for privacy rights and it's not good for individual content creators and it's not good for workers.
Please buy as much as you can, create nothing, and turn your brain off.
Then you'll be the perfect "consumer" and everything will work out just fine.
In order for SCIENCE to work properly, ALL SCIENTIFIC STUDIES MUST BE PUBLISHED with 100% of their raw data.
If the raw data is "proprietary" or "top-secret" or "lost" then it's PSEUDOSCIENCE and should be treated as such.
ZERO-CENSORSHIP.
In order for new ideas to thrive and give regular creative people a chance to thrive, COPYRIGHTS AND PATENTS MUST BE LIMITED TO 20 YEARS.
ZERO-CENSORSHIP.
In order for GOVERNMENT TO WORK PROPERLY AND TO INSURE INTEGRITY AND ELIMINATE CORRUPTION all government records must be made PUBLIC. Preferably on a public BLOCKCHAIN.
NO MORE BACK-ROOM DEALS. NO MORE INSIDER TRADING. NO MORE NEPOTISM. NO MORE LIES.
ZERO-CENSORSHIP.
In order for SCIENCE to work properly, ALL SCIENTIFIC STUDIES MUST BE PUBLISHED with 100% of their raw data.
If the raw data is "proprietary" or "top-secret" or "lost" then it's PSEUDOSCIENCE and should be treated as such.
In order for new ideas to thrive and give regular creative people a chance to thrive, COPYRIGHTS AND PATENTS MUST BE LIMITED TO 20 YEARS.
In order for GOVERNMENT TO WORK PROPERLY AND TO INSURE INTEGRITY AND ELIMINATE CORRUPTION all government records must be made PUBLIC. Preferably on a public BLOCKCHAIN.
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@SkepticalOne
2. The appearance of X is not X. For instance, the appearance of magic (say, by an illusionist) is not magic. It is the same with design.
Well stated.
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@bmdrocks21
I do believe that a government that stays out of our lives as much as possible and that enforces our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness would be preferable.
I can agree with you on this.
However, I'd make sure to specify that a good government must first and foremost, protect personal sovereignty and personal privacy in service of protecting citizen's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
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@bmdrocks21
How can a small-government possibly stand up to international criminal organizations?If you mean it in the criminal sense, the role of the government is to fight crime.
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@bmdrocks21
I believe in anti-trust regulations.
How does that mesh with a free-market-economy?
Would you break-up Amazon and Microsoft?
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@PGA2.0
The Bible also makes it clear that it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage.
Interesting side-note,
The Bible permits divorce and remarriage ONLY when a spouse has been unfaithful before marriage, and it’s not revealed until afterwards. There are no scriptures that permit divorce for adultery—only fornication. [LINK]
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@PGA2.0
It is a test. God wants to illustrate what Moses does as a lesson for others.
If you know exactly what the person is going to say, then it isn't a "test", it's manipulation and it's also still a lie.
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@bmdrocks21
...regulatory burden, which was higher in Mexico.
This "regulatory burden" only applies if there is a reliable enforcement mechanism.
Do you really believe that smaller government would be preferable?
Maybe you could just pay the cartels their protection money directly?
That usually works out just fine, right?
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@PGA2.0
This is called a lie. If I threaten someone with something I know they will protest and then pretend they convinced me not to do it, then my initial statement is a lie.God told Moses He would bring judgment upon them fully knowing that Moses would intercede for His people.
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@Alec
Rent is so high in part to pay for the property maintenance. This includes taxes.
Rent is set by market demand.
In my personal experience, property tax is less than 25% of the monthly rental fee (and even less for an apartment).
If you eliminated property taxes, landlords would simply pocket the extra money and continue to raise rents every single year like they always do anyway.
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@PGA2.0
God is presenting Moses with an if/then choice for Moses to consider, if Moses will intercede for his people, full knowing what Moses' response will be then He will change His mind. Moses does what God required, thus God did not bring judgment.
If a human did the exact same thing, it would be called a lie.
If I told a kid they'd have to eat worms, and I expected them to protest, and then I "changed my mind" when they calmly explained that they'd prefer ice-cream (as I had predicted beforehand) then my initial statement would quite clearly and obviously qualify as a LIE.
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@Alec
...a lot of their rent goes to pay the property tax.
This is highly unlikely.
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@Alec
Isn't this just welfare by another name?I favor rehabilitation for those who use most recreational drugs, such as cocaine, heroin, meth, etc. It worked in Portugal.
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@Alec
Under my plan, lets say your in NYC and you want a job in rural Kansas. If you need a ride to get to Kansas that´s government paid, so be it. The poor person gets their ride and contributes to the job in Kansas. If all they need is a $100 ride to a place where they can be productive, so be it. They can get a place to live in that area with the money they earned from their job.
If you're proposing some sort of national job-placement assistance, then I'm on-board.
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@ethang5
U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced Monday the U.S. is changing its position on Israeli settlements in the West Bank, dismissing the State Department's 1978 legal opinion that civilian settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are "inconsistent with international law."
Wouldn't this need to be determined by an actual International Court?
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@Athias
Have you ever heard of Koch Industries?Yes. How is KI "highly centralized"?
A corporate structure is "highly centralized" by definition.
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@PGA2.0
But not only this, Jesus shows that hatred and lust for women are also the same as murder and adultery...
Are you suggesting that people should be thrown into prison for thought-crimes?
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@PGA2.0
How then do we explain verses that seem to say that God does change His mind? Verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” or “relenting” of something and seem to contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.Another passage that is often used to show that God changes His mind is the story of Jonah. Through His prophet, God had told Nineveh He would destroy the city in forty days (Jonah 3:4). However, Nineveh repented of their sin (verses 5–9). In response to the Assyrians’ repentance, God relented: “He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened” (verse 10). [LINK]
So your argument is basically that your god is a liar? Does your god say they're going to destroy stuff even when they know that isn't true?
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