3RU7AL's avatar

3RU7AL

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Total posts: 14,582

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Anti-Abortion = Anti-Personal-Privacy
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@Athias
Not all of your cells have identical DNA coding.  The human chimera example closes the case on that.
A rare case.
We don't know how "rare" it is, because we don't test for it.
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@Athias
Fairchild's attorney was determined to solve the mystery. That's when he came across Keegan's chimera story in the New England Journal of Medicine.

"I asked the judge to postpone the case until these tests could be done," Tindell said.
Good point.  She had to go to court multiple times and ask the judge to postpone the case in order to keep custody of her own children.
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@Athias
And therefore, (IFF) DNA determines human rights (THEN) any creature with 97% DNA matching a human should be granted 97% human rights.
Try again. First, define determine and commensurate.
I'll accept your preferred definitions and or common dictionary references.
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401K means Wall Street IS Main Street.
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@Greyparrot
I know Vietnamese families that bought out the entire fishing industry on the Louisiana gulf coast by living on the boat and working 16 hours a day and saving all the money.
That make sense.

EVERYOnE should just do that and buy the entire fishing industry on the Louisiana gulf coast.

Then EVRYONNE can be MILLIONAIRES!!!!
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@ethang5
But there is no contradiction between Christianity and science.
Religion tries to answer the question of "WHY".

Science tries to answer the question of "HOW".
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DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM
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@ethang5
In time you will come to accept the truth that you don't control me and therefore I need no excuse to do what I like.

And that I could not be less interested in your opinion of my reasons.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
...if not its content, its scope...
NOUMENON makes absolutely no claims about content or scope.

It is merely a place-holder for "beyond perception and beyond comprehension".

A mind cannot know everything about itself.

You can't comprehensively study and perfectly map a tower that you're trapped inside.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Fallaneze
For the purpose of this thread, "objective morality" is the position that some moral propositions, like "killing someone without sufficient justification is morally wrong" are *factually* true.
In order for this hypothesis to be considered logically coherent, you must present your proposed moral AXIOMS from which all of your moral-truths can be derived.

Kinda like moral-mathematics.

Otherwise it looks an awful lot like a smattering of ad-hoc bald assertions.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
Of course, we'll never know,
Please qualify this statement.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
Noumenon isn't merely a tautological consequence of epistemology. It's an argument of its own using the premise "we don't know everything." It first assumes "everything," if not its content, its scope (counterintuitive.)
And your (counter-factual) position is that you do know everything?
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DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM
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@ethang5
In time you will come to accept the truth that you don't control me and therefore I need no excuse to do what I like.

And that I could not be less interested in your opinion of my reasons.
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DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM
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@ethang5
I have not refused to support my claim,
And yet, somehow you're just making up more excuses instead of supporting your claim.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Greyparrot
The entire Schiff show is an appeal to emotion.
Are you talking about the impeachment investigation?

Can you please be more specific?
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Greyparrot
This is why the partisan House minus 2 Democrats hoping to keep their job is busy removing an elected president.
An appeal to motive (also known as "dime-store-psychoanalysis") is a naked AD HOMINEM.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Greyparrot
Since you are not an independent,
I'm most certainly not a "democrat".

you really do not understand the optics.
And by "optics" you actually mean OPINION AND PROPAGANDA.

It doesn't matter if the impeachment isn't "bipartisan", that's not a constitutional requirement.

Get Your Facts Straight.

Conservatives love to say how much this impeachment is going to help Trump in 2020. 

If that is truly the case, then they should be 100% in favor of it.

If THE FACTS ARE TRULY ON YOUR SIDE, STOP SPREADING OBVIOUS LIES AND CONFLATING OPINION WITH FACT.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Greyparrot
Minority had subpoena power in Bill Impeachment. Also, vote to proceed was bipartisan.
The constitution gives the house of representatives 100% discretion to make up whatever rules they want regarding impeachment.

Nobody can complain about it being "unfair" or "illegal" or "sham" process.

The process is 100% constitutional.

Plus, they're releasing the transcripts of the testimony and holding open hearings.

The process is 100% constitutional.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Greyparrot
Getting the head of the STATE DEPARTMENT to give their OPINION on CONSTITUTIONAL LAW is a RED-HERRING.

This person has no authority over congressional hearings.

No authority whatsoever.

This impeachment process is IDENTICAL TO THE BILL CLINTON IMPEACHMENT.

All of this "fair and open hearings" BS is pure PROPAGANDA.
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Anti-Abortion = Anti-Personal-Privacy
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@Athias
The catalyst is human survival instinct.

Your start-point appears to be arbitrary.
I'm not arguing over this, anymore.
I'll consider that a "dropped argument".
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@Athias
This is going to vary from one person to the next and would require nearly catastrophic testing to verify.
Why catastrophic?
Because each of your internal organs (including your brain) would need to be biopsied to determine your DNA uniformity index.

Another interesting side-note about DNA uniformity, mothers get contaminated with human cells from their embryos.

Scientists Discover Children’s Cells Living in Mothers’ Brains - [LINK]

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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Greyparrot
Did you even watch your own clip?

What exactly is being investigated here?

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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
Biden NEVER "went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution".
Please present a COUNTER FACTUAL.

FACT - There is absolutely no evidence, no recordings, no video, no sworn testimony that Biden "went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution" of Hunter Biden.

THIS STATEMENT IS A BALD-FACED-LIE.

And for the record, I don't give a flying flip about Biden, I think he's a crook and a complete idiot, BUT you should be SMART ENOUGH to actually accuse people of things they ACTUALLY DID.

I can't believe how easily they can get you to drink their OPINION kool-aid.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
Ukraine is a primary source of what happened there, FACT
Where are your FACTS that support this OPINION?
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
Ukraine is a primary source of waht happened
That is your personal OPINION.

Do you have any FACTS you'd like to discuss?
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
Trump also referenced alleged corruption by then-Vice President Joe Biden: “The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it … It sounds horrible to me.”
Biden NEVER "went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution".

NEVER.

NOT EVEN ONCE.

This is PROVABLY FALSE.

Not to mention the FACT that the US Attorney General has NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER SPEAKING TO A FOREIGN PRESIDENT.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
However, the transcript of the call shows that the help sought by Trump was in regard to activities that took place during and before the 2016 election.
“I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike … I guess you have one of your wealthy people … The [DNC] server, they say Ukraine has it,” Trump said to Zelensky.
Why doesn't he ask the STATE DEPARTMENT TO OPEN AN INVESTIGATION?
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@Athias
But doesn't the link primarily focus on gene expression (e.g. tight skin, hair color, brain cells, etc...) especially when it mentions that the codes "aren't working well" as opposed to the codes being distinct? Even when it makes reference to the code, it makes an immediate mention of its expression. Other than the mention of viruses being able to rewrite the code, isn't most of its conclusions derived from gene expression? (I'm genuinely curious.)
Not all of your cells have identical DNA coding.  The human chimera example closes the case on that.

The fact that viruses and cosmic rays can damage your DNA coding also confirms that "not all of your cells have identical DNA coding".

Gene expression is interesting, but I fail to see how it's relevant to this discussion.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
Its bidens scandal
Once again, this is your personal opinion.

Do you have any FACTS you'd like to discuss?
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
Impeachment bad
Thank you for sharing your OPINION.

Do you have any FACTS you'd like to discuss?
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@Athias
Amazing. Where does it state that the children were forcibly removed?
Just watch the first 43 seconds, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFf5gKiTGlo
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@Athias
Are you suggesting that DNA determines personhood? Y/N
Y.

Are you suggesting that personhood determines human rights? Y/N
Y.
Case closed.  You have stated that DNA determines human rights.

And therefore, (IFF) DNA determines human rights (THEN) any creature with 97% DNA matching a human should be granted 97% human rights.
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DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM
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@ethang5
And if you're so obsessed with adhering to the OP, why didn't you comment on it?
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DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM
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@ethang5
You obviously have no argument for theism.

You made a claim, on this thread, which you refuse to support.

And now, you're making up imaginary "rules" to obscure the FACT that you have no such argument.
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Greyparrot
Because you need diplomacy to ask another nation for justice?
Why doesn't he ask the STATE DEPARTMENT TO OPEN AN INVESTIGATION?
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Decoding POLITICAL-DOUBLESPEAK with LOGIC
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@Dr.Franklin
ITs just an interview, it hold zero weight
If you personally don't care about the impeachment processes, WHY ARE YOU POSTING ON THE POLITICS FORUM?

The point here is that the FACTS are being obscured.

It's PROPAGANDA.
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@Athias
I explicitly said code.
Reference?
Mutations in the DNA have also been noted with the introduction of certain viruses into the body. In fact, this is a method by which “gene therapy” is being studied in depth. Scientists and medical researchers are using small virus cells, usually of common illnesses like colds, to change small parts of gene expression, since it is known that viruses may rewrite some of the DNA code. [LINK]
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@Athias
In one of these cases, a woman's womb did not match her standard DNA swab and this resulted in her children being forcibly removed.
Reference?
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@Athias
How would you do this?  Redefine "individual human" as 99.99999999999% matching DNA?
Not necessary; the only thing needed is to determine what is exclusively his.
This is going to vary from one person to the next and would require nearly catastrophic testing to verify.

DNA uniqueness is an impractical standard by which to determine personhood.
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@Athias
You're hair-splitting.
No, I'm not. Prevent is different from stop. Stop is to end an occurrence, which necessitates that it occurs.
I can prevent someone from dying and I can stop someone from dying.  It's essentially the same thing.

To prevent is to put an end to its ever occurring, which does not necessitate that it occurs. No one disputes that humans are necessary; no one disputes that sperm and ovum are necessary.
You're making a distinction without a difference.

But that's not the inception of human development.
The "inception of human development" is the selection process which begins with survival instinct.

They're essential inputs, no doubt. But the catalyst is fertilization.
The catalyst is human survival instinct.

Your start-point appears to be arbitrary.
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Anti-Abortion = Anti-Personal-Privacy
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@Athias
I'll leave it to you. Your response to my saying that I never stated that rights were commensurate to DNA content spurred you to invoke the law of excluded middle to conclude DNA determines rights. Elaborate.
Are you suggesting that DNA determines personhood? Y/N

Are you suggesting that personhood determines human rights? Y/N
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
The only way for you to not have a "subject's perspective" would be for you to know all things and see all things with 100% equal clarity.
In order for you to know that I don't know everything with 100% equal clarity, you'd have to some sense of 100%. Do you?
The only thing I need to know in order to qualify your subjectivity is that you are communicating with me.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
The only way to avoid the "subject's perspective" is for you to not be a subject with a perspective.
Who said anything about "avoiding"? Embrace it; incorporate it. To be ontologically subjective is not synonymous with to be inaccurate or epistemologically subjective.
You just defined "objective" as not reactive and not prejudiced.

So it stands to reason that if you are reactive and prejudiced, then you are subjective.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
NOUMENON = THE UNKNOWN
Somewhat, not exactly. Noumenon is independent from ontological subjectivity, not necessarily isolated from it.
Yes, necessarily isolated from it.

It is possible to represent an object in Noumenon, for example, objectively as a matter of coincidence.
Please provide an example.

Of course, in order for us to gauge this accuracy we'd of course have to isolate it, but since we're discussing Noumenon, this coincidental representation is ontologically objective.
Please provide an example.

This obviously is epistemologically insignificant.
Noumenon is epistemologically significant because it demarcates the actual boundary of your epistemology.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
They are intrinsically linked, not necessarily "the same thing".

I'm pointing out that your desire is prerequisite to your method.

Your method means nothing and can never happen without your prerequisite desire.

Your desire is biased, shaped by your personal feelings and whims.

This bias contaminates your method.

Desire is like the battery of a robot.

Without desire (a battery) then the robot (your method) is dead (moot).
Explain.
Please be more specific.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Athias
Objective = unbiased

Subjective = biased and the most fundamental bias of all is sample-bias.
Substantiate this claim.
Please be more specific.  I'm not sure I can break this down any further based on the dictionary definitions of "objective" and "subjective".
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@Fallaneze
Moral truths are embedded in rationality and the parameters that define rationality are objective.
Please demonstrate.

Please give an example of any one moral truth and show how it is logically necessary based on the parameters that define rationality.
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@Athias
You however, are conflating preservation with value.
Ok, so, "all human life is precious" means that we should sell people as slaves?  Is that what you think it means?

I'm trying to be generous, but you're all over the map.

Please explain how you would make the statement "all human life is precious" more specifically about "anti-abortion" and less about preserving human life.

Because it seems to me that "pro-life" means "pro-life for immigrants" and "pro-life for criminals" and "pro-life for foreign non-combatants" and "pro-life for the homeless".

Pro-life doesn't even specify human life.  Don't kill pigs and chickens and cows either you PRO-LIFER?!
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@Athias
In the case of the death penalty, the convict's life is recompense for the lives presumably taken.
According to what theory?  Now you're just making things up out of thin air.

Exactly what part of "all human life is precious" explains this?

You need to modify your AXIOM.
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@Athias
"all human life is precious" strongly implies that all human life should be protected and preserved at all costs, even and especially at the cost of personal privacy.
Interesting how that projection conveniently suits the context of the pro-life argument. I do not believe it means that which you state. I believe that the motto "all life is precious" is an argument for the inclusion of unborn children as it concerns the scope of legal protections afforded everyone.
All life?  Citizen and non-citizen?  Homed and homeless?  Criminal and non-criminal?

What you are talking about would necessarily be more specific.  "Unborn human life is precious" actually means very little, since "precious" is a QUALITATIVE-VALUE-JUDGEMENT.

The only way it informs the so-called-pro-life case is IF IT APPLIES TO ALL HUMANS.
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DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM
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@ethang5
This seems to me like an off topic tangent.
I started this thread, so I get to decide what's "off-topic" or not.

So while I think "Life" is an ironclad argument for theism,
Your awesome argument is one word?  Which SPECIFIC god(s) do you think "Life" proves?

You seem to want threads diverted to your preferred topic whenever you come across a topic you like. I think that is disrespectful to the OP.
I'm quite certain that I am the "OP".

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@Athias
OTHERWISE, HOW DOES IT INFORM ABORTION?
My presumption would be that they don't believe the privacy of its mother is commensurate to that of the value of her child's life. I disagree. But they sustain this consistently throughout its development until the child is no longer dependent.
The AXIOM "all human life is precious" strongly implies that all human life should be protected and preserved at all costs, even and especially at the cost of personal privacy.

NO CONTEXT IS PROVIDED.  AXIOMS ARE CONTEXT.  IF YOU WANT CONTEXT, ADD IT TO YOUR AXIOM.

This AXIOM is fine and dandy as an axiom, however if it was taken seriously and to its logical conclusions, then no criminals would be executed, and in-fact all criminals would be given top-notch healthcare and their personal security would be protected at all costs.  Undocumented immigrants would only be deported if they were given top-notch healthcare and their personal security protected at all costs.  Homeless people would also enjoy top-notch healthcare and their personal security would be protected at all costs.  Military action would only be taken (IFF) actual human lives were in imminent danger and even then, non-lethal alternatives would be employed whenever possible.

(IFF) you want to argue that "all life is precious" simply means "some lives are valued by some people some of the time and other lives are sometimes more or less valuable than others depending on the situation" - (THEN) - ALL BETS ARE OFF AND YOUR "AXIOM" IS A SHAM.
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