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@RoderickSpode
Because of your earlier comparison to soldiers.No. At least I don't think so. Why would you think that?
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@GuitarSlinger
What claim specifically about "Adam and Eve" were you wanting me to answer?
This is a red-herring. Even with highly credible archaeological evidence for "Adam and Eve", this still does absolutely nothing to support the supernatural claims made in the holy scriptures.
What claim specifically about "400 years of Hebrew slavery in Egypt" do you want me to answer?
This is a red-herring. Even with highly credible archaeological evidence for "Hebrew slavery in Egypt", this still does absolutely nothing to support the supernatural claims made in the holy scriptures.
What claim specifically about "4million people and livestock wandering in a wilderness for 40yrs." do you want me to answer?
This is a red-herring. Even with highly credible archaeological evidence for "40 years in the desert", this still does absolutely nothing to support the supernatural claims made in the holy scriptures.
For example, simply because The Amazing Spider-man comic prominently features the Empire State Building and may contain some historically accurate events, DOES NOT in any way validate the other events described by the authors.
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@RoderickSpode
Are you suggesting that "Biblical Slavery" = "Independent Contract Labor"?
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@Stronn
I suggest that reality is objective, almost by definition. Reality is the state of things as they are, not as we imagine them to be.
Perhaps "reality is objective", HowEVer, it is impossible for a human to DESCRIBE it OBJECTIVELY.
Every statement made by humans is necessarily contaminated with sample bias and motivated by emotion and colored by opinion.
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@zedvictor4
Do you believe there is an important distinction between deciding for yourself what is right and true (Gnostic) (AND) following some pre-existing set of commands (Theism)?
I'm going to guess your answer is NO.
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@RoderickSpode
What is evident is that a foreign servant can leave.
So the scripture says you can buy foreign slaves, specifically stating "as permanent slaves" and you can bequeath them to your children.
At what point does it say they can leave whenever they feel like it?
At what point does it CONDEMN chattel-slavery?
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@RoderickSpode
He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.
Ok, but you can buy foreign slaves and bequeath them to your children.
How do you square that circle?
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@RoderickSpode
Yes, the Bible condems chattel slavery.
Please refresh my memory.
I believe all of your scriptural references applied to bond-servants and did not specifically prohibit chattel-slavery.
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@Stronn
People measure things because measurements provide useful information about reality..If reality was wholly subjective, then people would never agree on measurements, and things like houses and cars would never get build.
If reality was wholly subjective... then humans would have to rigorously define Quanta. Do we use metric or do we measure the King's foot?
If reality was wholly subjective... What's your proposed alternative? Are you suggesting that reality is wholly objective? Is it 50/50?
Objectivity and Subjectivity are mutually exclusive. There's no such thing as "more objective" or "less objective".
Objectivity is by definition, Absolute.
In a purely subjective reality, terms must be negotiated in order to arrive at an inter-subjective consensus.
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@RoderickSpode
WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT?
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE BIBLE CONDEMNS SLAVERY IN ALL OF ITS FORMS? Y/N
I'm going to guess... NO!
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE BIBLICAL GUIDELINES FOR (NON-ISRAELITE) FOREIGN SLAVES ARE PERFECTLY MORAL AND SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE ALLOWED AND OR PRACTICED TODAY? Y/N
I'm going to guess... NO?
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE BIBLICAL GUIDELINES FOR NATIVE ISRAELITE BOND-SERVANTS ARE PERFECTLY MORAL AND SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE ALLOWED AND OR PRACTICED TODAY? Y/N
I'm going to guess... YES?
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@EtrnlVw
Sure but don't confuse that with an objective reality. Your view of gnostic just means category, my view means objective reality.
If you believe Noumenon is a reasonable place-holder for "objective reality" then perhaps we can agree.
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@Snoopy
: ) I mean I'm a genuine proponent of that form of government, not just a patriotic observer.
Nobody wants to abolish the federal government.
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@EtrnlVw
The true nature of the soul has no gender identity and neither does God. The only aspect of our experience that identifies us with gender is our physical parts at birth. Religious people aren't aware why souls stuck in male or female bodies wish to express themselves as the opposite gender. Reincarnation plays a huge role is this phenomenon. Sometimes a soul leaves the physical world by accident, too early or whatever...since the soul has no gender it can take on either form, both male or female and mostly it's the nature and attitude of the soul that dictates which form it takes on. But because of Karma the soul can inhabit either bodily form due to what it needs to learn from the choices it has made. Since the soul keeps and retains all it's experiences in it's conscious awareness that exists beyond the physical form it can come back within another gender role and still have the desire to express itself in female or male form, even though it has a definitive role. Of course the Creator doesn't really care lol, it's religion and fundamentalism that make this expression evil or bad. In reality that soul is neither, it's just wanting to express itself beyond the physical role because their awareness is beyond the physical body. They may not know why, but they feel they have a more direct connection with the other role.Heretical beliefs?? I don't care and that's irrelevant to the truth of the matter.
Can I call you a Gnostic?
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@Snoopy
This statement does nothing at all to distinguish you in any significant way from a screaming libtard.I'm a pretty staunch proponent of republican federalism (by the people, for the people with checks and balances), rule of law, and respect of property rights.
Nobody wants to abolish the federal government.
Nobody wants to abolish democracy.
Nobody wants to abolish the rule of law.
Nobody wants to abolish property rights.
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@EtrnlVw
I would tend to think left wing (libertarianism) is socialism, which opposes individuality.
I'm quite certain that all definitions of Libertarianism are fully incompatible with all definitions of socialism.
Left-libertarianism stands in opposition to the notion that libertarianism belongs under the umbrella of conservative political philosophy. Left-libertarians reject the notion that libertarians are “Republicans who want to smoke pot.” They often reject fusionism, and generally reject dogmatic social conservatism, populist Tea Party rhetoric/politics, Reagan worship, the emphasis of traditional gender roles, and general pessimistic view of humanity (Thomas Sowell would call it a “constrained vision”) as envisioned by conservativism. Moreover, most left libs are not convinced that religious belief – even a popular religion such as evangelical Christianity – should dictate the social norms for society. The clearest example of this is marriage equality, where Right-libertarians are more inclined to say “get the state out of the marriage business,” while Left-libertarians view marriage as a legal contract between two individuals, which gay individuals are unjustifiably prohibited from entering.
Of course, labels have a habit of being re-appropriated by hipsters seeking to differentiate themselves. I have more than one friend who describes themselves as so-called “libertarian socialists.” This strikes me as a non-sequitur title that a 22-year-old might think sounds subversive. [LINK]
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@Dr.Franklin
The Libertarians look like they're simply begging for it. [LINK]
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@Snoopy
"Conservatism" seems to be a mixed bag.Conservatism isn't libertarianism, although liberty is an aspect of American conservatism, and I'm specifically referencing conservatism as differentiated from neoconservatism, which I take to be more invasive or imperialistic in general.
It's sort of a cafeteria style ideology where each individual just picks and chooses what they want to include and what they want to distance themselves from.
It sounds like you're more of a "free thinker" with a nostalgic streak.
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@Snoopy
I mean this "the holding of political views that favor, free enterprise, private ownership, and socially traditional ideas"
Free Enterprise is a Libertarian ideal. "Conservatives/Republicans" are in favor of market regulation and now apparently even tariffs.
For example, I've never heard of any "Conservatives/Republicans" advocating for abolishing privileges for Boeing or ending subsidies for Corn.
Private Ownership is a universal ideal. Even Russian Commies protect private ownership.
Socially Traditional ideas ARE generally considered Conservative (by definition).
HowEVer, "Family Values" are universal.
Supporting Socially Traditional ideas (circa 1950) does however seem to conflict with your stated "live and let live" philosophy.
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@Snoopy
Old school conservatism pretty much says that my house is my house and your house is your house.
I think you mean LIBERTARIANISM.
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@RationalMadman
He needs to eat more food to maintain such a body shape. Has to workout harder and for more time if muscular etc.You also need to realise that when it's at the general manager level, they realise there's no one further up than the police/media to fight with or via. With her there was still the hope that even if they completely fucked it up with her they could make it work with the general manager.I have seen women tame beasts that men like that really pissed off but ultimately there is a link between being masculine and staying calm in aggressive scenarios, so I won't deny on balance that fits the correct stereotype.
Perhaps I didn't make this clear enough.
This happened 100% of the time.
Someone, would complain and demand some sort of cash value compensation. The day manager would say "I'm sorry, we can offer you these vouchers". Then the customer would shout "that's complete bull**t!! I'm not taking your stupid vouchers!!! This f*****g ruined my entire day!!!! You OWE me CASH MONEY!!"
There was no way for them to know there was "another manager". They already asked for "the manager" and they were speaking to her.
Now when BFG approached the situation, he smiled and made eye contact, and the customer **instantly** turned sheepish.
They looked down at their shoes, shoulders slumped, silent as a mouse.
BFG hadn't even said a single word yet.
He shook their hand and gently asked them what happened, and they would mumble out a half-hearted, toned down version of their initial complaint, then BFG would say "I'm very sorry to hear that, we can offer you these vouchers" and they would then take the vouchers and mumble a squeaky "thanks".
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@RationalMadman
I used to work at a business that generated a fair number of customer complaints.There is no such thing as passive intimidation.
The customers were very loud and aggressive (really just plain abusive) with the very polite 4'9" female manager and strangely sheepish when, just as they demanded, she called the general manager who was a very polite 6'6" 350lb giant.
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@RationalMadman
So Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Dogmatic whereas Protestants are Gnostic, if we take Christianity?
Protestants are Dogmatic. They believe The Bible is divinely inspired and that god(s) don't talk to humans directly (no new prophets).
They also rely pretty heavily on tradition.
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@RationalMadman
No, that's where you're wrong. All religions are gnostic and scripture-based in their own way. If Islam was not 'gnostic' as you put it, everyone would be using the ISIS-chosen lines on top of the Saudi-Sharia-Law ones too yeah? The only reason there's decent, peaceful Muslims is they are not following the dogmatic teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith.Similarly with Christianity and Judaism, they evolve with time but with Islam it is actually impossible to be pleasant and peaceful to non-believers and sinners if you're going to properly follow the scripture.
Certainly Dogmatic religions evolve. Otherwise we would never have Vatican 2. [LINK]
HOWeVer, these Dogmatic religions still teach that only certain very special people (prophets, priests, ordained) can properly interpret the will of god(s).
Gnostics, on the other hand, believe that the only "spiritual authority" is discovered by each individual by a "direct personal experience of the divine."
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@RationalMadman
Thanks for sharing, and you make a pretty decent point about the whole 50/50 doves versus hawks.
HoWEver, the larger hawk doesn't necessarily need to expend any extra energy at all if they can passively intimidate smaller hawks and doves.
This point was briefly mentioned near the end of the video, but I would like to see it integrated into its own simulation.
I'd also like to see how a "honey badger" (always fight) strategy would fair against the passive intimidation strategy.
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@zedvictor4
Do you believe there is an important distinction between deciding for yourself what is right and true (Gnostic) (AND) following some pre-existing set of commands (Theism)?
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@Stronn
Just because a model provides close approximations in the short term does not mean it matches reality,
No model perfectly matches reality.
Newton's Principia is not perfect, but it is generally accurate enough for general usefulness.
The same it true for Ptolemy's Almagest.
most especially if there is another model that makes better estimates.
Depending on your personal subjective goal. Different models are sometimes more and sometimes less useful for different applications.
The Copernican model make much better estimates.
Aesthetically, the Ptolemaic model is vastly superior.
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@Stronn
the trajectory of an object relative to that frame of reference is objective.
It's (EITHER) relative (OR) objective. It can't be BOTH.
Any observer in any frame of reference will observe the trajectory,
Even Helen Keller? What if the observer was a kitten?
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@Stronn
No, subjective means "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." If has nothing to do with a frame of reference. Your frame of reference, in the Einsteinian sense, is not a matter of opinion.
In the "Einsteinian sense" your frame of reference is only measurable RELATIVE to other arbitrary nearby objects and temporal context.
Your frame of reference is necessarily RELATIVE (subjective, context sensitive) because there is no ABSOLUTE (objective, comprehensive) frame of reference.
And as far as "subjective" being exclusively "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." THIS BEGS THE QUESTION OF WHY ANYONE IS MEASURING ANYTHING AT ALL IN THE FIRST PLACE. PERHAPS IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE INFLUENCED BY PERSONAL FEELINGS (DESIRE FOR MONEY FOR EXAMPLE) TASTES (PERHAPS THEY ARE DRIVEN BY SOME INNATE FEELING OF CURIOSITY) OR OPINIONS (MAYBE THEY FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE KNOWING CERTAIN THINGS).
Basically, if humans are doing it, it is definitely "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" (SUBJECTIVE).
And of course you are side-stepping the fact that "objective" also stipulates "free of bias" and that the terms "objective" and "subjective" are mutually exclusive.
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@Stronn
Depends on the frame of reference, of course.
Bingo.
But the speed and trajectory relative to a frame of reference is an objective fact.
Wrong.
A shifting frame of reference is the very definition of SUBJECTIVE.
Without a "view from nowhere" you are forced to pick a SUBJECTIVE viewpoint.
And if your viewpoint is SUBJECTIVE, then your data is SAMPLE BIASED.
OBJECTIVITY has zero tolerance for BIAS.
In the framework of a Ptolemaic solar system model, the Sun makes a perfect circle (orbit) around the planet Earth.
The Ptolemaic model is not "wrong" or "false" any more than Newton's Principia is "wrong" or "false".
Certainly there are arguably "better" models to choose from, depending on your (personal subjective) desired level of accuracy, but for many things, like figuring out when Mars is going to be closest to the Earth, the Ptolemaic model seems particularly well suited.
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@Athias
Currently 1 Steem Dollar is exchangeable for about 19 cents USD. The peak exchange value was about $6 USD in January of 2017. [LINK]What is the exchange rate of this "steem dollar/token"? It doesn't necessarily have to be to the dollar, but to a basket of various online goods. From what I gathered, the "steem dollar" is worthy only a "steem dollar."
The point is that it's more than zero, which is how much you get from everywhere else.
There are definitely writers who make more than a nickle for every post. This example made 259 Steem with only 82 likes, which at current rates would be about $49 USD. [LINK]
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@Athias
So consider these my closing remarks
Empty promises.
as we've now come full-circle: everything you [COMMUNICATE ABOUT YOUR] experience is inextricably tied to the abstracts you ascribe them.
Your pre-cognitive (infantile) raw sensory input is REAL.
Sand and volcanic dust are not CONCRETE. They are prerequisites to CONCRETE, but they are distinguishable each one from the other.
In order to substantiate your posit of an "actual reality" you must be able to control for the portion of your experience which is independent from abstracts.
Ok,
That is, you separate it, you isolate it, and you observe its behavior.
Kinda like drawing a distinction.
That means no Science, no Math, no Language, no Logic, no Sensations, no Thought--because as soon as you think about it, you're subjecting it to the "bias" of your imagination/abstraction.
Like a cave-man. Or an infant.
What is it you'll experience then? "Something" you're able to neither communicate nor rationalize.
Just because data may seem initially incomprehensible (to an infant), that does not mean it is fundamentally incomprehensible for all time.
Hence, it would be epistemologically insignificant.
I strongly disagree. Primary experience is fundamental. Distinguishing REALITY from IMAGINATION is critical to our very survival.
You're unwittingly stating that there's a significant difference between abstracts and an experience rationalized by abstracts. I am here to tell you: no there isn't.
Pre-cognitive sensory input =/= post-cognitive comprehension.
The irony is that abstracts dictate your distinctions: "reality" vs. "imaginary" (scientific veracity -- concept); "truth" vs. "falsehood" (logic -- concept.)
That is due to our medium of exchange, namely LANGUAGE which is necessarily ABSTRACT.
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@Athias
Furthermore, your argument operates on a non sequitur.
Naked assertion.
Your analogy doesn't suffice and demonstrates your lack of understanding of my argument.
Naked assertion.
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@Athias
In the context of [ABSTRACT] (non)existence, no there's no difference, because both truth and falsehood [ABSTRACTLY] (non)exist.
In the context of ACTUAL existence, there is a very important difference, because REALITY is always necessarily TRUE.
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@keithprosser
ie that 'the truth' varies from place to place!
Observations are context sensitive.
Even the laws of physics are temporary.
The nature of space-time was quite different before stars formed and the nature of space-time will be quite different after the last red dwarf blinks out.
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@Stronn
It is objectively true from any frame of reference that you threw the ball to your fried.Back to the revolution example. I would argue that the frame of reference is implicit in the definition of revolve, which means to orbit. Object A and object B orbit each other if they move in an elliptical path around their common center of mass. Implicit in this definition is that the elliptical path is relative to the common center of mass; The center of mass itself may of course be bobbing and weaving through space relative to other objects, but even if your frame of reference was one of those objects, you would still observe object A and object B orbiting each other.
How far and how fast did the ball travel (objectively) between the time that you threw it and the time that your friend caught it?
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@Athias
Now, do you believe there is an important distinction between TRUTH (LOGICAL COHERENCE) and FALSEHOOD (LOGICAL INCOHERENCE)?
If you don't recognize a bright line between REALITY and IMAGINATION, then how can you determine COHERENCE from INCOHERENCE?
It's like we've been having an argument on television.
I produce a television program that tries to explain the difference between television and not-television.
Then you produce a television program in response basically saying that you can't understand what I'm saying because everything that I've communicated to you was ON TELEVISION. So even the stuff I present as examples of not-television are ON TELEVISION rendering them incomprehensible and self-contradictory.
Certainly LANGUAGE ITSELF is ABSTRACT.
HOweVeR, that does not mean it is wholly incapable of describing ACTUAL REALITY.
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@RoderickSpode
WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT?
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE BIBLE CONDEMNS SLAVERY IN ALL OF ITS FORMS? Y/N
I'm going to guess... NO!
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE BIBLICAL GUIDELINES FOR (NON-ISRAELITE) FOREIGN SLAVES ARE PERFECTLY MORAL AND SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE ALLOWED AND OR PRACTICED TODAY? Y/N
I'm going to guess... NO?
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE BIBLICAL GUIDELINES FOR NATIVE ISRAELITE BOND-SERVANTS ARE PERFECTLY MORAL AND SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE ALLOWED AND OR PRACTICED TODAY? Y/N
I'm going to guess... YES?
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@RoderickSpode
Semantics are not really necessary here.
Semantics is the linguistic and philosophical study of meaning, in language, programming languages, formal logics, and semiotics. It is concerned with the relationship between signifiers—like words, phrases, signs, and symbols—and what they stand for, their denotation. [LINK]
SERIOUSLY, YOU DON'T THINK THE MEANING OF WORDS IS IMPORTANT?
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@keithprosser
I don't subscribe to notions of "reality" and "imagination."I think you do, given that you manage to get through each day. When you wake up tommorow, will you eat a real breakfast or make do with imagining having breakfast? If the latter, why not stay in bed and imagine the whole day...?
Great idea.
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@zedvictor4
Theology is merely data.As is Dogma.Both are generated from within the human computer and do not occur externally.
Certainly THEOLOGY and DOGMA are Qualia (generated from and exclusively processed by "the human computer").
My only point is that THEOLOGY and DOGMA are foisted upon you by some other person or group of people.
Do you believe in "other people" or do you at least have some colloquial (or minimum practical) understanding of the concept?
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@Athias
Now, do you believe there is an important distinction between TRUTH and FALSEHOOD?Rather than lead me through a maze of yet to be contextualized queries, might we skip to the point?
You've managed to utterly shatter my preconceptions.
I'm simply trying to get my bearings.
Please answer the question with a simple "YES" or "NO".
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@keithprosser
In that light, the earth-centred view is certainly not correct - our planet (and we on it) are not the hub around which everything revolves (literally and figuatively).
The observer is necessarily "the center of the universe". All measurements are necessarily relative to the observer.
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@EtrnlVw
A valid reality exists despite a general agreement.
How can you possibly know this?
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@Stronn
Here's another example.Actually, to be precise, the Earth and Sun each revolve around their common center of mass. Because the Sun is so much more massive than the Earth, the Earth-Sun barycenter is actually inside the Sun, very close to the center.
Imagine that you're in a park and you throw a ball to your friend.
The ball appears to follow a fairly simple arc through the air, never exceeding 60 to 90 kph, giving your friend a fair chance to catch it.
HoWevER,
From another perspective, the thrown ball is actually spiraling wildly through space at over 1,667 kph (relative to the Earth's core) and over 110,000 kph (relative to the Sun's core) and over 828,000 kph around our galactic core and over 1,324,800 kph relative to the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB) and over 400,000 kph relative to the rapidly approaching Andromeda galaxy.
So which one of these is the one true objective reality?
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@Athias
Thanks, that's what I was looking for....no, I don't believe there's an important distinction between that which you call "real" and that which you call "imaginary."
Now, do you believe there is an important distinction between TRUTH and FALSEHOOD?
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@Athias
You experience raw sensory input (like an infant) BEFORE you understand the concept of "existence".What about this isn't abstract? You state that an infant experiences raw sensory input before understanding the concept of existence, but how do you discern this independent of your abstracts? Is any of this information indicative of a substance independent of your representation? In order for one to do this one must isolate the abstract and that which isn't abstract; and thus far, you've only attempted to do this by arguing semantics--an abstract. Even when we speak of physical senses and the experience of sensation, what is "sensation" without conceptual contextualization? How does someone know that they're doing something different with vision, audition, gustation, olfaction and somatosensation independent of the abstracts? They don't because sensation (or sensory input) is abstract in and of itself.The map is not the territory.This analogy doesn't suffice. Your argument essentially amounts to "your notions of that which you see, isn't the same as that which you see." Except your notions rationalize that which you see.
Our conversation is comprised of abstract concepts.
Do you believe there is an important distinction between REALITY and IMAGINATION?
Please answer "YES" or "NO".
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@keithprosser
I think it's always a good idea to ask youself if an argument is over concepts or the words used to describe them.
I find that implicit agreement is often false agreement.
Whenever possible I try to make any perceived agreement explicit.
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@Athias
Were we discussing concepts? Or is there no distinction between the aforestated and this:
Do you believe it is possible to describe a concept that is logically incoherent?
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