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3RU7AL

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Be skeptical of atheism.
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@keithprosser
...but it is faith in rational inquiry that makes us think it is worth doing.  if we didn't believe rational inquiry would lead us to the answer we wouldn't do it.
The scientific method is not fool-proof.  Science and rational inquiry make mistakes every single day.

HoWEver, we know, based on historical evidence, that the scientific method and rational inquiry are the most RELIABLE systems of data collection.

We don't need faith (100% confidence) that science "can solve every problem", because there are a great many unsolved and potentially unsolvable problems facing humanity.

If you flip a light switch, you expect (no faith required) the light to blink on, but if it doesn't, that does not shatter your faith in light switches (or science).
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Mopac
The church has never indiscriminately massacred pagans nor can the church condone this as it is against our ways. 
Well good for you and your Easter Orthodox brethren.
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@keithprosser
A different sense of 'faith in science' is believing that rational enquiry will continue to reveal truths and eliminate errors.  
You don't need faith in rational inquiry.  The efficacy of rational inquiry is compelling evidence.  We all know that rational inquiry is not 100% fool proof, but it is THE MOST RELIABLE METHOD OF GATHERING DATA.  It certainly beats the pants off of "pure intuition" and "ancient writings".

A biologist woking on abiogenesis or cancer research might fail to crack a prolem, but will still have have faith that the problem will be cracked one day.
Abiogenesis (and or a cancer cure) may be either flat-wrong (unsolvable) or unverifiable (unattainable), but that is no reason to stop research.

Faith is not a prerequisite to persistence.  It is perfectly rational to approach a "problem" with the most reliable tools available, knowing full well that not all "problems" are actually solvable.
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@keithprosser
One sense is  that 'scientific facts can be trusted', such as 'water boils at 100 degrees' and 'water is h2o'.   
You don't need faith if you can verify and or you have demonstrably reliable sources and data.
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@Snoopy
I thought we agreed that science does not require faith.

Please explain.
Negative, notice we have not established anything further than the emboldened portion and we never agreed that science does not require faith.  I am referring back to my initial assumption of what you meant by "faith in science", which at least makes sense.  There is nothing else for me to refer to.
Do you think it's fair to say "science requires faith"?
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@keithprosser
I'll never ask you 'Do you think it will rain?'.!
There is scientific data that allows us to reliably (but not perfectly) predict the weather.

Do you think there is a significant (say >1%) chance of the super-duper time-travelling alien scenario is correct?
I'm not sure how to pin a "percentage" to it, but if we're speaking purely hypothetically, I think there's a less than zero chance that there are some number of "more intelligent" "beings" "somewhere" that may have or may not have interacted with humans at some point in the "past" and that may or may not interact with humans at some point in the "future".

HowEVEr, there appear to be zero practical (real-world) implications either way (exist/not-exist/interact/not-interact).
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@Snoopy
Faith in science has already been offered, so it doesn't make sense for a lack of science to be a cause requiring faith.
When you said, 

Thinking that he can is not faith.  It appears I have assumed your meaning incorrectly.
I thought we agreed that science does not require faith.

Please explain.
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@Snoopy
"Jesus is God" is a theological statement.   All things are possible through God.  It just happens that Christianity is "The Way"
"Jesus is god" is NOT scientifically testable (unfalsifiable) (not a truth bearing statement) (but might be logically incoherent) and as such requires "faith".

"All things are possible through god" is NOT scientifically testable (unfalsifiable) (not a truth bearing statement) (but might be logically incoherent) and as such requires "faith".

"Christianity is The Way" is NOT scientifically testable (unfalsifiable) (not a truth bearing statement) (but might be logically incoherent) and as such requires "faith".
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@keithprosser
i'm asking if you think we will find one.
That is clearly beyond our current epistemological limits.

I try to distinguish between what is known Quanta (extant) and what is unknown (non-existent).

Something being currently unknown (non-existent) does not and should not imply that this state (of non-existence) is a necessarily permanent condition.
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@Snoopy
Yeah, I guess so.  I thought that's what you asked for.
What religious belief do you hold (by faith) that is TESTABLE?

A) Jesus is the one true god

B) Heaven is where you go when you die
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@keithprosser
...But if one has faith in science you don't think that will ever happen.
This is a non-sequitur.

Having confidence in the scientific method has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a super intelligent time traveling alien may or may not "exist" (at some point in the future).

It merely highlights the fact that we don't currently have any evidence of such a thing and there is currently no reason to think there ever will be any evidence of such a thing.
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@keithprosser
Faith in science is the belief that science is the best way to discover what is true and what is false.     
BASED ON A COMPARISON OF ALL OTHER POSSIBLE METHODS OF DETERMINING WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS FALSE.

It's not "faith" to expect the light to turn on when you flip a switch.
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Stephen
What punctuation should be used when words are inserted or altered in a direct quotation?

When writers insert or alter words in a direct quotation, square brackets—[ ]—are placed around the change. The brackets, always used in pairs, enclose words intended to clarify meaning, provide a brief explanation, or to help integrate the quote into the writer’s sentence.  A common error writers make is to use parentheses in place of brackets. [LINK]
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@Snoopy
The statement, "the earth is flat" is a testable hypothesis and does not rely on "faith".
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Stephen
Islam butchered its way far west into Europe up into France and Spain. North west to the Caucuses. As far east a China and down into the Indian subcontinent raping robbing maiming and murdering and converting by the sword as it went. It appears this  fool likes to believe  that the indigenous peoples of the "conquered lands" simply welcomed them in and willingly converted to Islam Without so much as a by your leave' and that it had absolutely nothing to do with a fkn sword and the threat of death.
Christians massacred pagans indiscriminately as well.

Sure there are bad Muslims, just like there are bad Christians but you can't paint them all-the-same with your BROAAD BRRUSH.
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@Mopac
A good scientist is faithful to the scientific method. A scientist who is not faithful to scientific methodology is hardly a scientist.
Faith has no place in science.

Science is pure Quanta.

Faith is pure Qualia.
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@Snoopy
Please provide even a single example (counter-factual) of a religious belief that CAN be tested.
Dogma (The earth is flat), logic, and predictions
Are you suggesting that "the earth is flat" is a religious belief?

What religious belief do you hold (by faith) that is TESTABLE?

A) Jesus is the one true god

B) Heaven is where you go when you die
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@Snoopy
Scientific "faith" (high confidence) is belief in something that can be tested (like turning on a light switch).
Calculating a probability and showing your work with a margin of error isn't the same as holding conviction, going forth and turning on a light switch.  We've established that much.  
So can we agree that "faith" might be the wrong word to use for "faith in science"?
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@Snoopy
At first glance this looks unreasonable as you can't prove that all religions cannot be tested.
Please provide even a single example (counter-factual) of a religious belief that CAN be tested.
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@Mopac
In other words, you are scared that if you are properly brainwashed, you might end up believing.
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Stephen
"Devout [CHRISTIANS] believe that the [BIBLE] is the perfect word of god , so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century". 
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@Mopac
Mehmed II introduced the word Politics into Arabic "Siyasah" from a book he published and claimed to be the collection of Politics doctrines of the Byzantine Caesars before him. He gathered Italian artists, humanists and Greek scholars at his court, allowed the Byzantine Church to continue functioning, ordered the patriarch Gennadius to translate Christian doctrine into Turkish
This seems like a non sequitur to me, so if you would explain what you are trying to say.
The point here is that even Muslim conquerors did not "kill all christians".
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Stephen
I have no "common ground" with you...
Apparently you do.

For example, we both agree that terrorism is bad.
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Stephen
so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century.  
Nice try, accept for the the silly schoolboy error. 
I copied your phrasing verbatim.
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@Stephen
Being a Muslim does not in-and-of-itself make you a terrorist.
And you won't find anywhere on this forum where I have even suggested that never mind said it.
I'm attempting to map common ground.

(IFF) you agree with this (THEN) just say "I agree".
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@Stephen
You are simply refusing to see this from the [christians] standpoint because it goes against what YOU want [christianity] to be. Devout [christians] believe that the [bible] is the perfect word of god , so if it "perfect" it don't need altering or reforming or dragging into the 21st century. 
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Stephen
The whole question revolves around your chosen definition of "radical Muslim".

Generally I take that to mean terrorist or supporting terrorist tactics.

By that standard, approximately 20% of Muslims can be described as "radical" or "extremist".

Many Mormons and Jews and Christians and Amish and Hindus have "controversial opinions" about the role of women in society and homosexuals and generally believe that laws should be based on their (more or less) ancient rule-book of choice.

Terrorists are bad.  I hope that's something we can all agree on.

Being a Muslim does not in-and-of-itself make you a terrorist.

Here's your STEEL MAN. [LINK]
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Britain seizes Iranian ship
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@Dr.Franklin
Read the article
In other words, "appeal to ignorance".
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Mopac
But that is the difference between Islam and Christianity. We are a lot nicer.
Mehmed II introduced the word Politics into Arabic "Siyasah" from a book he published and claimed to be the collection of Politics doctrines of the Byzantine Caesars before him. He gathered Italian artists, humanists and Greek scholars at his court, allowed the Byzantine Church to continue functioning, ordered the patriarch Gennadius to translate Christian doctrine into Turkish [LINK]
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Mopac
Maybe if we chopped people's hands off for theft or stoned adulterers to death people would remember this stuff is bad.
Well I'm pretty sure we know what would happen if we elected Mopac as supreme leader...
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Be skeptical of atheism.
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@Snoopy
These limitations mitigate the confidence of the results.  This confidence is Quantifiable.  It's called "Sigma" and it NEVER REACHES 100%.
Approaching this with an open mind, that sounds like glorified statistics.  That is not how I understand science.
Please explain how you understand science.
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@Snoopy
...and you are going to take a leap of faith in order to test the theory.
Testing a hypothesis is not a "leap of faith".

Testing a hypothesis is skepticism in action.

Religious faith is (100%) belief in something that cannot be tested (like going to heaven).

Scientific "faith" (high confidence) is belief in something that can be tested (like turning on a light switch).

There is a very real difference.  Testable versus Untestable.  Verifiable versus Unverifiable.
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@Mopac
Maybe use fancy Greek words that you don't really know the meaning of.
What does "five sigma" mean? It means that the results would occur by chance alone as rarely as a value sampled from a Gaussian distribution would be five standard deviations from the mean. The Excel function 1- normsdist(5) computes that the fraction of the normal distribution that is greater than five standard deviaitons from the mean. The value is 0.0000003, or 0.00003%, or about one in three and a half million. In other words, the one-tailed P value is less than  0.0000003. If the Higgs Boson doesn't exist, that is the chance that coincidences would align to give results as striking as they observed.  And they obtained this level of evidence in two independent sets of experiments.

The standard of statistical signifcance in most fileds is that the two-tailed P is less than 0.05. About five percent of a Gaussian distribution is more than two standard deviations away from the mean (in either direction). So the conventional definition of statistical significance can be called a two-sigma threshold. 

The tradition in particle physics is that the threshold to report “evidence of a particle,” is p<0.003 (three sigma), and the standard to report a “discovery” is p<0.0000003 (five sigma). [LINK]
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@Mopac
You are unwilling to go through the process to see things for yourself.
I am unwilling to submit to cult brainwashing based on the tenuous promise of "learning the truth".
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@Mopac
No trick of language can define god into existence.
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@Snoopy
I assume you mean by faith in science you are essentially referring to the idea that without having done so, you will be able to duplicate the scientific methodology, and you are going to take a leap of faith in order to test the theory.  Just because you are imagining a cathode collecting hydrogen bubbles and an anode collecting oxygen bubbles doesn't make the faith itself distinguishable from faith in anything else.
They are not the same.

One has perfectly logical explanations of how electricity can split oxygen from hydrogen.  It is part of a coherent theory of chemistry.

There is ample evidence from multiple sources and can be explained without an in-person demonstration.

The other very important point is that science, based on inductive reasoning, has very specific limitations.

These limitations mitigate the confidence of the results.  This confidence is Quantifiable.  It's called "Sigma" and it NEVER REACHES 100%.

Now, if I read in some old book that I could turn lead into gold with some unicorn tears and a squirt of dragon blood, and I went around teaching this to people because I 100% believed it, that would be much more similar to a religious belief.

The other point I'd like to make is that the cathode collecting hydrogen bubbles IS TESTABLE (FALSIFIABLE).

The tenents of religion taken "by faith" are NOT TESTABLE (UNFALSIFIABLE).
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Mopac
The fact that homosexual's aren't chucked into furnaces is an act of charity...
Case in point.
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@Mopac
I have always been very thorough at explaining myself when the opportunity arises. 
You simply claim "special knowledge".  This is not an explanation.
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@Snoopy
I would say you can have a confident attitude independent of faith.
Ok,

Just to be clear, when someone says "you have faith in science" they are not using the word "faith" in the same way that religious people use it.

When a religious person says "I have faith that Jesus will usher me to heaven when I die" this is not the same as someone saying "I have faith that the cathode will collect hydrogen bubbles and the anode will collect oxygen bubbles".

One is a verifiable, evidence-based belief (Quanta) and the other is pure imagination (Qualia).
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@Mopac
Look, you can't complain about people misunderstanding you if you refuse to explain yourself.
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@Snoopy
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that people are misusing the word to be subversively offensive.  One must be fooled to think otherwise.  An aspect I find most appropriate from citing Hebrews is that their faith is not a self-righteous conception of belief.
If you believe faith = confidence, then why not just say "confidence"?

Seriously.
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@Mopac
Yet if I insist you do not understand, you arrogantly persist in the delusion that you know better.
If you want someone to believe you, you must first be able to explain what you are talking about.
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Islam, " only a tiny minority".
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@Stephen
Your question is clearly deceptive.

If I polled christians around the planet and said, "do homos deserve to burn in hell for all eternity", how many do you think would say "yes"?

Please present the data you are obviously so eager to present and let's discuss that.
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@Mopac
I don't "despise christ" any more than you "despise santa claus" or "big foot".
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Britain seizes Iranian ship
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@Greyparrot
Which of those are radical right wing? 
Please enlighten me.
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@Snoopy
100% confidence is knowing, which is faith.  Faith is not synonymous with that level of confidence.
I am only 100% confident in logical tautologies.  Your religious beliefs are not tautological.

Your "faith" is not the same as my instrumental beliefs.
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@Greyparrot
All of which are responsible for Atrocities domestically and across the globe in the name of God.
Ok, so why single out Iran?  Why not sanction them all?
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@Mopac
Christianity is Truth worship through the purifying of the intellect. This is not a superstitious faith.
Your naked assertions are uncompelling.  More logic please.
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@Snoopy
The "hard data" is different from the "bronze age superstition".  Faith is still faith, and I'm guessing you believe that faith in "bronze age superstition" is misplaced.
So, when you say "faith" (like "faith in god") do you mean "100% confidence" or just "some unspecified level of confidence"?
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@keithprosser
I suppose one could argue that the a-prefix means it's a binary thing, but wikipedia has a page on that.
And you have "intuition" to support your view?

I'm not saying "you're definitely wrong", I'm asking you to convince me that there's a practical difference between "atheist" and "agnostic".

Neither one of them is a theist.
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