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@keithprosser
I am not saying every muslim is a terrorist or a potential terrorist, but the bulk of Muslims are less liberal and less progresive than the bulk of westerners.Why I am opposed to Stephen is what to do about it. I think he sees this as an opprtunity to get rid of brown people! I see it as requiring finding a way to change the mindset of British muslims - and ideally, muslims everywhere.
Well stated.
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@Dr.Franklin
Old Testament punishments are stoning.Sharia Law punishments are stoning
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@Dr.Franklin
Who doe sit apply to then
NOBODY, because we no longer allow slave ownership.
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@Dr.Franklin
Please explain.Yes it does
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@Dr.Franklin
"Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,"
This does not apply to immigrants (OR) DEPORTATION (OR) BORDER SECURITY.
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@Dr.Franklin
Another artful dodge.My first post
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@Dr.Franklin
Citation please.Yeah, the Bible promotes that
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@Alec
Does this mean that you are also pro-immigration?I said the bible was pro immigration.
Do you have any biblical caveats?
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@Dr.Franklin
They need to get a job as my first post indicates
First of all, MOST OF THEM HAVE JOBS.
And second of all, which part of "The Bible" makes this recommendation?
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@Dr.Franklin
No,
What specific policy recommendations on the subject of immigration do you get from "The Bible"?
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@Dr.Franklin
Illegal immigrants
So, you have no specific policy recommendations on the subject from "The Bible"?
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@Dr.Franklin
[POST#16]Please tell me where I claimed that they shoud be deported
What part of "The Bible" is anti-immigration?
"A consverative viewpoint on immigration" is generally PRO DEPORTATION.
Instead of pursuing naked evasiveness, perhaps you could kindly explain if you are ANTI-DEPORTATION?
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@Dr.Franklin
Natives can be treated as slaves
BUT NOT ALL NATIVES ARE SLAVES.
NOT ALL FOREIGNERS ARE SLAVES.
NATIVE =/= SLAVE
FOREIGNER =/= SLAVE
AND EVEN (IFF) FOREIGNER = SLAVE (THEN) THIS STILL DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR DEPORTATION ARGUMENT.
SLAVES ARE HIGHLY VALUED, SOLD AND OR TRADED NOT DEPORTED.
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@Dr.Franklin
Leviticus 19:34 - The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born.
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@Dr.Franklin
Ok, do you read the Bible, Immigrants have always been slaves.Israelites, Caananites,Babylyions have all been slaves
Some foreigners are slaves but not ALL foreigners.
FOR EXAMPLE:
Leviticus 19:34 - The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God. [LINK]
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@Dr.Franklin
Foreigners are slaves
No, they are most certainly not.
Please find a passage in the most holy scripture that actually explains how a nation should treat immigrants.
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@Dr.Franklin
Where, which passage explains them = "immigrants"?Them means immigrants
Because when I looked, it said "bond servants". So, unless you own slaves, WTF?
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@Dr.Franklin
No, I claimed"Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,Thats a consverative viewpoint on immigration
I don't see the word immigrant or immigration anywhere in that passage.
You need to be more specific.
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@Dr.Franklin
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people
From your own [LINK]
So let me get this straight, you're saying that "The Bible" is "anti-immigration" because it says "be submissive to rulers"??????????????????????
This is an argument that supports any and all possible policies of TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENTS.
This passage has absolutely nothing specifically to say about immigration.
Is America invalid/illegal (according to "The Bible") because it was formed by people who were not - "submissive to rulers"?
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@Alec
What part of "The Bible" is anti-immigration?For example, a theocrat party would be pro life and against homosexuality, but they would also be alright with immigration and would be socialists, since that would be their interpretation of the bible.
Leviticus 19:34 - The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God. [LINK]
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@Swagnarok
Oh wow, it's almost as if Trump holds his people up to a standard of competence, and does away with them if they can't meet that.
Oh wow, it's almost as if Trump holds his people up to a standard of [BLIND LOYALTY], and does away with them if they can't meet that.
What you'd expect from a businessman. If some part of the operation is inefficient then maybe it's time to fire some people, or so the reasoning goes.
What you'd expect from a [CAPRICIOUS RICH KID EGOMANIAC]. If some part of the operation is [ASKING QUESTIONS] then maybe it's time to fire some people, or so the reasoning goes.
When people think that their jobs could be on the chopping block at any time, it usually motivates them to do a better job.
When people think that their jobs could be on the chopping block at any time, it usually motivates them to [FIND ANOTHER JOB].
Past presidents didn't, either because they just didn't care, didn't realize the extent of the government's issues, or valued the facade of unity too highly.
Past presidents didn't, either because they [HIRED QUALIFIED PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE], [UNDERSTOOD] the extent of the government's issues, [AND] valued [SERIOUS QUESTIONS] too highly.
And we're now beginning to learn about the catastrophic behind-the-scenes failures of the Obama Administration.
And we're now beginning to learn about the catastrophic behind-the-scenes failures of the Trump Administration.
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@Stephen
20% extremists and extremist sympathizers (conservatives).Islam was and still is a barbaric ideology that will never be compatible with the west.
80% moderates.
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@Stephen
Were the facts from a MUSLIM scholars and a MUSLIM king just to much for you to swallow.
You are conflating opinion with fact. Opinion and fact are mutually exclusive categories.
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@Stephen
You asked for a logical support for my claim.
That is correct.
You got it from a muslim academic scholar and a Muslim King:
A big fat opinion sandwich.
you don't like it. This is the typical reaction of someone having the FACTS of the matter shoved up their drainpipe. Now go away. Unless you would like some more facts concerning the incompatibility of Islam with west.
You are conflating opinion with fact. Opinion and fact are mutually exclusive categories.
FACT: Muslim majority countries conduct billions of dollars in trade with "western" countries. NOT INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE WEST.
FACT: Muslim individuals are considered celebrities in "western" countries. NOT INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE WEST.
FACT: Individuals from "western" countries often travel to and even start businesses and churches and live comfortably for extended periods in Muslim majority countries. NOT INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE WEST.
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@Stephen
“The Democratic system that is predominant in the world is not a suitable system for the peoples of our region. … The system of free elections is not suitable to our country.” King Fahd of Saudi Arabia.At least King Fahd has had the honesty to admit the incompatibility of Islam and Democracy.
EVERY SINGLE KING IN HISTORY BELIEVES - "The system of free elections is not suitable to our country."
This is not exactly a shocker.
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@Stephen
And Christianity preaches love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek.
Which apparently translates as "kill all Muslims"?
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@Stephen
Jews do not even recognise the Old Testament as ' there's' you fool and they never have.
Have you ever heard of "the five books of Moses" (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)?
The Old Testament is the Torah, the books of the Prophets and the books of the Writings. Within Judaism this trio is known simply as the Bible, or the Tanakh, an acronym derived from תורה/ Torah (Teaching), נביאים / Nevi’im (Prophets), and כתובים/ Ketuvim (Writings). When the term Old Testament is used, it is often in order to distinguish it from the New Testament, a collection of Christian books and letters that are not part of the Jewish faith. [LINK]
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@Stephen
ISLAM is STILL the BARBARIC ideology as it was when it was first created by man believing he had a vision over 1400 years ago.
Perhaps, the prim and proper Christians of the world could BOYCOTT and SANCTION ALL countries that VIOLATE HUMAN RIGHTS.
The "problem" here is that the prim and proper Christians of the world don't give a flying flip about inalienable human rights.
They only care about money.
The prim and proper Christians of the world have been pumping money into these "evil" Muslim countries for almost 100 years now.
Who's "funding terrorism"? You are. You and your father and your grandfather. [LINK]
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@Stephen
With a MASSIVE difference you absolute buffoon. Islam STILL practices all the above and worse. Islam is still ancient Islam.
Where's the caliphate?
There have been massive reforms in Judaism and Christianity and all for the better of mankind (though some may disagree). On the other hand ;
HOWevER, their starting points look disturbingly similar to other ancient rule books.
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@Stephen
Discovered by western technology and the same helped them get it out of the ground, refine it and stupidly allowed them to nationalise it.
Please explain what you think would have been the "smart" thing to do?
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@Stephen
Yes, Saudi Arabia is funding all the above as is Iran funding terrorism, and our western governments are not doing anything about it, are they.
Freedom of speech (money is speech per Citizens United) and innocent until proven guilty (you can't convict people for mere suspicion) and BROAAD BRUUSH.
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@Stephen
And it is all Christians, they share a book, the same fkn book, The same book is read by all Christians. Or are you telling me there are other "types" and "forms" [or interpretations] of the Bible?
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@Stephen
Ibn Warraq, Islamic scholar and a leading figure in Qur’anic criticism, was a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry.
Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted; they cannot marry a non-Muslim.
Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".
Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries have inferior status under Islamic law; they may not testify against a Muslim. In Saudi Arabia, following a tradition of Muhammed who said “Two religions cannot exist in the country of Arabia,” non-Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, build churches, possess Bibles, etc.
Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".
Non-believers—atheists (surely the most neglected minority in history)—in Muslim countries do not have “the right to life.” They are to be killed. Muslim doctors of law generally divide sins into great sins and little sins. Of the seventeen great sins, unbelief is the greatest, more heinous than murder, theft, adultery, etc.
Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".
Slavery is recognized in the Qur’an. Muslims are allowed to cohabit with any of their female slaves (Sura iv.3); they are allowed to take possession of married women if they are slaves (Sura iv.28); the helpless position of the slave as regard his master illustrates the helpless position of the false gods of Arabia in the presence of their Creator (Sura xvi.77).
Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".
Fundamentalist Christianity and Fundamentalist Judaism and even Fundamentalist Hinduism have the same kinds of "problems".
I think it's time to hang up your BROADD BRUUSH (not all Muslims believe exactly the same thing, they are not robots).
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@Stephen
ISLAM you [ad hominem]! ISLAM is incompatible with the west...
Please demonstrate logical support for this claim.
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@Stephen
(IFF) someone advocates intolerance and conditional human rights and censorship (THEN) that person is a FASCIST.I see, So ISLAM is fascist. Well how about that, you wouldn't have fkn thought it would you.
Some individual people who subscribe to some forms of Islam are FASCIST.
Exactly like some individual people who subscribe to some forms of Christianity are FASCIST (KKK).
You are really wearing out that BROAD BRRUSH.
Which in turn means MILLIONS of the 1.5 BILLION muslims who follow this fascist dictatorial ideology are totalitarians too.
Good job creating mindless terrorist robots out of thin air.
And the "conditional statement" would that be covered by your "special pleading" link?
My conditional statement is necessarily true in all cases (regardless of race creed or gender).
So it's actually the exact opposite of "special pleading".
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@Stephen
Is Muhammad Ali "incompatible" with the West?Is Dr. Oz "incompatible" with the West?Is Dave Chappelle "incompatible" with the West?Is Casey Kasem "incompatible" with the West?What about Cat Stevens, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, Ellen Burstyn, Mos Def, Omar Epps?ISLAM you buffoon ISLAM is incompatible with the west.
These are popular celebrities who subscribe to some form of Islam. Islam is not monolithic, just like Christianity is not monolithic, just like Judaism is not monolithic, even specific camps like Catholics are not monolithic.
Your statement seemed to be suggesting that anyone who subscribed to Muslim beliefs is basically a terrorist (incompatible with "the west").
This list constitutes a counter-factual.
Please (EITHER) modify your original claim (OR) compellingly explain how ALL of these individuals are "incompatible with the west".
And it would have to be ALL because your blanket statement (broad brush) is disproved by even a single exception.
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@Stephen
Christians I've run across in my lifetime believe that the ideal model for their laws is from a "backward ancient law system"Without trying to impose them on a modern western society.
What about laws making it illegal to open a business on Sundays?
What about anti-drinking laws?
What about laws against abortion?
I'm sure it doesn't seem like an "imposition" if you personally AGREE with a specific law.
Without making it illegal to criticize and offend.
Please explain what specific law(s) you are referring to in this statement.
Without inventing words that mean one could end up in prison such as the left wing libtard favourite of the islam apologist "islamophobia"..
Please explain which laws imprison people for "Islamophobia"?
This religious board is of full of offence, bigotry and criticism of Christians and Christianity and no one seems to give two fks, mention Islam and the shiite hits the fan.
People spew hate for Atheists and Pagans and Catholics and Christians and Muslims and Buddhists, but I'm pretty certain nobody's been threatened with a prison sentence.
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@Stephen
You are literally describing tribalism.As much as you like to play down this menace as mere "tribalism" it is far more than that, It is a clash of cultures and ideologies.
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@Stephen
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.Listen to yourself. ISLAM is intolerant to ALL the above.
SOME Muslims are intolerant. JUST LIKE SOME Christians are members of the KKK.
Let me buy you a BROAD BRUSH. [LINK]
This is why ISLAM is INCOMPATIBLE with the West.
Is Muhammad Ali "incompatible" with the West?
Is Dr. Oz "incompatible" with the West?
Is Dave Chappelle "incompatible" with the West?
Is Casey Kasem "incompatible" with the West?
What about Cat Stevens, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, Ellen Burstyn, Mos Def, Omar Epps?
YET here we have bellend apologist like yourself and prosser AND our own Western leaders trying to square a circle by attempting with every fiber of your existence to make the incompatible- compatible.
Secular law applies to all people within its jurisdiction. There is no compelling reason to exclude specific individuals based solely on their choice of religion. + ad hominem...
How is this a special (special pleading) case?
We are having new words invented, words redefined and new laws added to our society that is and will further, stop the "freedom of speech" and do away with the "inalienable human rights" that you appear to value.
Laws change and evolve over time and reflect the social standards and norms of the POPULATION.
If you want to freeze all laws in their current form and essentially inscribe them in stone, you're going to have to make a more compelling case.
Tell me, WHAT if I do not "believe in TOLERANCE, inalienable HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF SPEECH"?
Look, I avoid using charged language whenever possible, but you're making it pretty difficult here.
The following is a conditional statement.
(IFF) someone advocates intolerance and conditional human rights and censorship (THEN) that person is a FASCIST.
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@Stephen
There are thousands of Christian denominations, all with different rule books.And they all live under one law. They do not demand that a backward ancient law system takes precedence over the laws of the adopted land.
Nearly every town, city, county, and state have DIFFERENT LAWS.
AND a majority of the Christians I've run across in my lifetime believe that the ideal model for their laws is from a "backward ancient law system". [LINK]
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@Stephen
Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.And still are but this is a different beast altogether no matter how you want to paint it. It is not compatible and it is not peaceful no matter how many times our own western leaders try to tell us it is.
How is this a special (special pleading) case?
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@WyseGui
(IFF) any hypothetical god is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and the sole origin of all things (THEN) that god must necessarily BE all things.How do you know what God is if no one can know what God is or understand God?
All things (real and imaginary) must be pieces-parts of such a god.
Monism is true.
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@disgusted
In a rush to disqualify?OK kiddy go back to your sandpit. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
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@Stephen
You're the one quoting the (very ancient and very Muslim) Quran.As I have said, islam and muslims would obviously feature in this thread. I quoted the quran in response to something said by someone else. If you cannot keep up you should keep off the thread.
You don't seem to understand the concept of "public forum".
I am "on topic" and if you'd like to steer this conversation towards some specific point, simply ask a specific question.
The behavior you are so afraid of is NORMAL.At least you appear to believe it is actually happening unlike prosser who denies it completely.
Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.
It is usually the minority populations that are chased out of neighborhoods and by necessity form their own neighborhoods which naturally exclude "outsiders".
Oh, and let me add, the two nationalities you mentioned above Italian & Irish were of Christian decent weren't they?
Catholics and Protestants have a rich history of killing each other. It was actually pretty shocking to a lot of people that JFK was elected president even though he was a professed (dirty) Catholic (papal stooge).
Did they emigrate to America and demand that those already living there adopt something like Shaliah Law.
They had their own ideas of what was moral and what laws should be passed and enforced. Christianity is not monolithic. There are thousands of Christian denominations, all with different rule books.
Did the Chinese who built miles of railway in the USA demand that their own religion and laws of China usurp the existing laws and religion of America.
They probably would have if they were able to vote. They were treated like animals.
You are talking about a brand new nation that isn't even a quarter of a century old where the USA is concerned and that happened to be populated already by Christians, you clown.
You're missing the point. These are just a few relatively recent examples of a phenomenon called "tribalism" that has been part of human nature since the stone age. + ad hominem.
Your reasoning (boneheaded excuses) are absolute bollocks. Islam has no place in western society it is not compatible with western society as many scholars, including islamic scholars, attest to.
Opinion on top of opinion. It's like an big fat juicy opinion sandwich.
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.
It's called "democracy".Islam does not do "democracy" or liberalism. It's funny though that these people come to the land of the infidel and pagan and the "dirty animal kuffar" seeking "refuge and asylum" but no sooner do they grow in numbers then they start demanding another way of living, their way of living and start to impose it on the indigenous population.
You are literally describing "democracy".
Please propose a hypothetical "solution" to your hypothetical "problem".
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@Stephen
You need to read the thread and its title. While it maybe a case that Islam and or muslims are mentioned in this thread, the thread started by prosser is all to do with" No go areas in the UK".So if you want to start a thread on muslim or christian or jewish atrocities committed in ancient times, fkn start a thread about it and stop disrupting this one.
You're the one quoting the (very ancient and very Muslim) Quran.
The Irish-Americans were vilified and excluded from general society - - THEREFORE they lived TOGETHER in neighborhoods of overwhelmingly Irish people. They ran for public offices. They joined the police force. They fought for their rights.
The Italian-Americans were vilified and excluded from general society - - THEREFORE they lived TOGETHER in neighborhoods of overwhelmingly Italian people. They ran for public offices. They joined the police force. They fought for their rights.
The behavior you are so afraid of is NORMAL.
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@Snoopy
Jesus was not born at the time you are referencing. There were no people to distinguish as we today call Christians. Muhammad took up a radically different religion distinct from Christianity, and as I understand the New Testament of Islam is the Qur'an.
The single example provided was not intended to be comprehensive.
Perhaps you've heard of Torquemada? [LINK]
The point being, people of all religions (even Buddhists) have slaughtered civilians.
That fact is an indictment of the individuals and or the institutions they are responsible for, not the religion itself.
You can't blame all Muslims for what some of them do and or say (freedom of speech/freedom of religion).
In the same way that I DON'T blame all Christians for what the (proudly christian) KKK does and says.
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@Stephen
Quran 51 - "You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people".
Let's try to remember, if we're dredging up ancient history, that the Jews and the Christians are also pretty good at slaughtering civilians.
Numbers 31:17-18 So now, kill all the boys, and kill every woman who has had relations with a man, but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man. [LINK]
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@Stephen
Do you believe the christians in this article are moderate christians? YES OR NO?
The Ku Klux Klan is composed entirely of white, Anglo-saxon, Christian American citizens, both male and female, who believe that their race and religion are superior to those of people of other colors and religions. [LINK]
The main difference is that you understand that one group of white christian people is not representative of ALL white christian people.
Now if only you could understand that being a Muslim is not a crime, in-and-of-itself.
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@Stephen
It has gained traction because of Irish/Jews/Japanese/Italians immigrating to foreign lands and setting up "communities " of their own. They elect other Irish/Jews/Japanese/Italians to represent them. They gain positions in high office in their adopted country and they out breed the indigenous (non-catholic) population. That is why it has "gained traction" and anyone Exceptan leftwing fawning libtard apologist such as yourself can see it!
It's called "democracy".
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