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@Athias
The theory of evolution is based on a hypothesis that is supported by and verified by falsifiable data and logic.In other words, it's an assumption/interpretation despite it's being qualified as "educated."
In other words, you can debunk it with a counter-factual. Please present one.
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@Athias
So you're not going to address the absurdity of your non sequitur? Or the negative you claimed I inferred? Or your reference of stating a simple fact? That's fine.
You're going to have to provide more details if you want answers to those peripheral tangents.
More to the point,
Would you feel better about, "Science renders provisional conclusions with available data. When new data is available those conclusions have the option to be refined, but even those newer conclusions are considered provisional, pending additional data."
This one's easy, it's just a "yes" or "no".
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@Dr.Franklin
That's amazing.
But I'm pretty sure the point of that story is that you CAN measure "good" and "bad" but that it isn't PERMANENTLY ONE THING OR THE OTHER.
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@Mopac
Created things are composed of that which is passing. The exist only in a relative sense. They are by nature contingent existences.The Uncreated is not composed of transient things, it exists in an eternal and absolute sense. It is by nature a non-contingent existence.
This is a noble effort.
HoweVer, you still haven't explained how "the uncreated" could "create" anything that wasn't made out of 100% pure uncut "uncreated" material.
If "the uncreated" is the only thing in existence, and it wants to make stuff, the only material available is necessarily some portion of ITSELF.
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@Fallaneze
Please explain.You aren't using the term "logically necessary" correctly if you're using modal logic terminology.
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@Dr.Franklin
Nothing is negative,nothing is positive.You can't measure what is bad or what is good, it could be bad to one or good to another
I never would have guessed you were such a nihilist.
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@Alec
ECTOGENESIS FTW!! [LINK]I also would want to dedicate $100 Million of federal funds per year (enough to get 1000 people working for $100,000 per year) towards artificial womb research and development so any women who gets pregnant has the artificial womb option. If planned parenthood doesn't want to work on that, fine, I would want to make a federally owned company that makes artificial wombs common, effective, safe, and cheap so females who don't want pregnancy can select an artificial womb.
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@Alec
I believe your claim was "Science confirms that a fetus is a human being."
Not "It seems like a good definition of what a human is. I can't think of any exceptions to the rule and all other definitions of human have at least one exception." which is more of an ontological choice than it is a "scientific fact".
In order to be considered a citizen (with the full protection of the law), one must have a BIRTHcertificate recognized by that particular country.
But that's more of a cultural tradition than a "scientific fact".
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@Mopac
You assume there is an exception here, but that is because you are too lazy to confirm the veracity of what I am saying.
Please demonstrate your logic.
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@Dr.Franklin
I never said that,
I quoted you verbatim.
but in WW2 where 10 million more citizens would have died if we didn't bomb them
Citation please.
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@Dr.Franklin
HAH, warcrimes against Japan and Hitler doesn't count,try again alien.
No country is immune from accusations of war-crimes.
This is why we need to define a clear and universal, logically coherent standard.
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@Mopac
All truth claims must adhere to epistemological limits.
All truth claims must be logically coherent.
All truth claim must be comprehensible.
EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING SPECIAL CASE:
The uncreated and the created have distinct natures.
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@Mopac
The bigfootlochnessspacealien exists.
Can you count how many things you can be 100% certain of? There truly aren't many, if any, but there is one thing that there is no room for doubt about. That bigfootlochnessspacealien exists. I am more sure of this than anything. How can I be? I know The One True bigfootlochnessspacealien. You do not know The One True bigfootlochnessspacealien, so you have doubts.
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@Dr.Franklin
Im sorry but can you read? I said WOMENS RIGHTS. They are still GOP women senators but GOP doesn't look at gender they look at the characteristics, consverative women tend to value Tradition,family, and religion over politics. How is that bad? Jesus,did you pass the 4th grade.
Women and minority lawmakers are better positioned (with their own hands on the levers of power) to defend the rights of women and minorities.
Oh, and... random ad hominem insult... or something...
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@Dr.Franklin
Ok, evidence GOP doesn't want women's rights, and no abortion doesn't count because killing isn't a right
The democrats have a much higher percentage of women and minority lawmakers. [LINK]
The report shows that Democrats, even though they are outnumbered by Republicans, have three times more women in the two chambers.
The contrast is even greater for racial diversity. Democrats have nearly six times more minority members than the Republicans. [LINK]
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@Dr.Franklin
Forget about ancient history.Are you mentally deranged? Can you not comprehend that the Democrats were always against the rights of women and minorities.
We're talking about TODAY.
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@Alec
Citation please.It takes a brain and the right chromosomes to be a human being.
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@Greyparrot
Isn't Hamas wanted for warcrimes?
Check this out, 45 seconds. [LINK]
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@Alec
So if a dog or a mouse fetus has brain waves, does that make it human?
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@Alec
Citation please.Science confirms that a fetus is a human being.
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@Gatorade
If you add enough black beads to a barrel, will it turn the one white bead black?If you add enough black to white, will it become black?
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@mustardness
Humans --that created AI-- have access to greater degree of freedoms/options/factors than AI ever will.
I like having wheels for feet. [LINK]
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@keithprosser
I believe I'm advocating for "instrumentalism" which treats things beyond our epistemological limits as a "black box".Of course I could be dreaming now... but life is a bit short to bother with every fanciful idea there is - I don't have much interest in idealism.
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@Athias
Well, Fisher may have or may have not persuaded others, but I did not claim that he persuaded others to change their values. I said he "popularized" natural selection through modern synthesis, spurring the ideological shift (in consensus) from orthogenesis to natural selection.
I've never seen such skillful hair-splitting.
Popularized =/= Persuaded
WTF?
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@Greyparrot
I don't care about Hamas SPECIFICALLY.Why not? you infer all sorts of BS about Hamas as it is.
What I am interested in is a logically coherent, uniform standard that can clearly distinguish "a political organization" from "a terrorist organization".
The international community OBVIOUSLY can't seem to decide which is which.
In the USA, "a political organization" has a "right to free speech", but "a terrorist organization" does NOT.
The USA currently considers the Kurds to be "freedom fighters" and at least a nascent "political organization".
However, the Turkish government considers the Kurds to be "a terrorist organization" that should be eradicated without mercy.
Can you (oh great and powerful Greyparrot) present a reasonable and logical way to distinguish between the two?
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@Athias
It's call "the marketplace of ideas".All the more reason it's subjective, no?Are you suggesting that some facts are "objective"?Where are you getting that?
You seem to be disparaging "subjective" but you get defensive when I ask you about the obvious alternative (objectivity).
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT SOME FACTS ARE "OBJECTIVE"?
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@Athias
Please provide an example from "the bible" that is not nakedly assertortic."Assertortic" informs the form of a proposition. Once again, explanatory "power" is contingent on the scope of ones standards. But if you demand an example(s), biblical diets would be one.
Biblical diets are purely dogmatic rules with zero explanation.
assertoric
- Asserting; assertory; assertive: as, an assertoric judgment. See assertory. [LINK]
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@Athias
Please (EITHER) demonstrate how creationism is logical (OR) demonstrate how the theory of evolution is NOT logical (perhaps by pointing out a counter-factual or specific logical error).All arguments are logical. Whether they are sound or fallacious is another matter (Note that when I criticized your argument, I did not characterize it as "illogical," but rather "fallacious.") And once again, you're arguing non sequitur. I did not state creationism was "logical," and/or that evolution was "not logical." Your semantic gymnastics is unwarranted.
Would you perhaps feel better about, "Please (EITHER) demonstrate how creationism is logically sound (OR) demonstrate how the theory of evolution is NOT logically sound (perhaps by pointing out a counter-factual or specific logical error)."
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@Athias
If you look at a dictionary, "rational" is a synonym of "logical".Why are we for umpteenth time arguing over semantics? Rational is "of reason" and logical is "of logic."
rational
- adj.Having or exercising the ability to reason. synonym: logical. [LINK]
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@Athias
The theory of evolution is based on data and logic.The theory of evolution is based on an assumption/interpretation of data and logic.
The theory of evolution is based on a hypothesis that is supported by and verified by falsifiable data and logic.
Some people make unscientific assumptions and draw unscientific conclusions and interpretations "based on" the theory of evolution, but those do not invalidate the theory itself.
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@Athias
Science renders provisional conclusions with available data. When new data is available those conclusions will be refined, but even those newer conclusions are considered provisional, pending additional data."You 'seem' to be making a critical error here making an unwarranted prediction that ['new data'] will at some be 'discovered' and furthermore that it is even necessarily 'discoverable'."
Would you feel better about, "Science renders provisional conclusions with available data. When new data is available those conclusions have the option to be refined, but even those newer conclusions are considered provisional, pending additional data."
"New data" is inevitable. Refinement is optional.
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@Mopac
All truth claims must adhere to epistemological limits.
All truth claims must be logically coherent.
All truth claim must be comprehensible.
EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING SPECIAL CASE:
The uncreated and the created have distinct natures.
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@Fallaneze
Why can't two fundamentally different substances interact?
It's like communication. In order to communicate, you must both have mouths and ears (or eyes and hands for sign language) and speak a similar language or at a minimum have some common experiences.
Doesn't the physical universe operature under certain abstract parameters? Is the physica universe not interacting with these abstract parameters (such as math and logic)?
Yes, and anything fundamentally identical.
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@Mopac
It is a fallacy misidentification too accuse me of special pleading because I recognize that The Uncreated is of a different physis than created.
That is the very definition of "special pleading".
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@Fallaneze
It's logically impossible to confirm a dualistic universe.You mean to say that dualism is logically incoherent because of the interaction problem, not that it's logically impossible.
It's logically impossible to interact with more than one fundamental substance.
De facto Monism is true in every possible universe.
A dualistic universe is FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL to monism.
Dualism is the refuge of ghosts gods and goblins. (IFF) ghost gods and goblins CANNOT interact with us, then the hypothesis is MOOT.
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@Fallaneze
Something is "necessarily true" if the alternative is incoherent. Dualism is incoherent. Therefore, monism is necessarily true.Something is "necessarily true" if the alternative is inconceivable. Dualism is conceivable. Therefore, monism isn't necessarily true.
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@Greyparrot
I'm going to have to infer from your evasiveness that you have no principles.Hamas sure does from their statements easily googled.
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@Athias
All science is provisional.Not all of it. Laws, Theories, and Hypotheses are; facts aren't.
Are you suggesting that some facts are "objective"?
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@Athias
The "theory of evolution" only has to be "better" than any competing theories.Why? It's subjective isn't it?
It's call "the marketplace of ideas".
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@Athias
Both "nothingness" and "the bible" have ZERO predictive or explanatory power.Incorrect. The Bible has plenty of explanatory "power." It depends on the scope of one's standards.
Please provide an example from "the bible" that is not nakedly assertortic.
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@Mopac
3ru7al, it is not currently possible for you to find the coherence in what I believe because the faith is constructed in such a way as to be shut off from those who are in a certain frame of mind. You are confounded, but not because what I believe is incoherent.
(IFF) you are unable to explain your position without appeals to "special pleading" (THEN) your position is de facto incoherent.
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@Athias
If "it's all trivial" in your opinion, then why do you even bother engaging?I never sought to argue the content of evolution (i.e. what is it? functional arguments, etc.) I sought to argue the logic (i.e. the structure, its premises, its conclusions, etc.) Once again, my contention isn't the content of evolution. My contention is that evolution is allegedly more rational.
The theory of evolution is based on data and logic.
If you look at a dictionary, "rational" is a synonym of "logical".
Please (EITHER) demonstrate how creationism is logical (OR) demonstrate how the theory of evolution is NOT logical (perhaps by pointing out a counter-factual or specific logical error).
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@Athias
I'm retracting and claim of "randomness" and REPLACING it with a claim of "no detectable or decipherable order or pattern"."No detectable or decipherable order or pattern" would seem to be an epistemologically defensible claim.It's not epistemologically defensible because you're still asserting the negative using the lack of evidence toward the affirmation.
You're inferring a negative. I am not asserting anything more than simple fact.
That's the reason I specifically worded it as "yet to be discovered."
You seem to be making a critical error here making an unwarranted prediction that "a solution" will at some point be "discovered" and furthermore that it is even necessarily "discoverable".
Consider the possibility that the tools used have yet to become sophisticated enough to render a conclusion on either.
Science renders provisional conclusions with available data. When new data is available those conclusions will be refined, but even those newer conclusions are considered provisional, pending additional data.
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@Greyparrot
Are you suggesting that all civilians are considered hostile until proven innocent?What is the civilian house fallacy?
Are you suggesting that you have some guiding principle regarding the difference between a "justified" and "unjustified" war?
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@Dr.Franklin
No,why would you think that
Because I never suggested "cannibalism never happened".
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@Greyparrot
I'd say Hamas launching 3000 rockets into civilian house counts for something maybe.
So now you're hanging your hat on a tu quoque fallacy?
Your guiding moral principle appears to be "might makes right".
In that framework, there is no "moral highground".
Let's see who dies last, it worked out pretty well for the Irish.
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@Dr.Franklin
That doesn't mean cannibalism never happened--there were certainly stories in the American Indian oral history about cannibalistic incidentsCan you read?
Are you quoting yourself?
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@Athias
Perfection is not the goal of science.Non sequitur.
You attempted to critique "the theory of evolution" by suggesting that if it was reliable enough, they'd make it a "law".
The "theory of evolution" does not pretend to "explain everything perfectly". Perfection is not the goal of science.
The "theory of evolution" only has to be "better" than any competing theories.
All science is provisional.
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@Athias
Evolution only has to be "better" than nothing (or "the bible").It's fine if you like the theory of evolution better than "nothing" (or The Bible.) That however does not mean it's more rational.
Please point out specific logical errors and or provide counter-factuals to the theory of evolution.
Both "nothingness" and "the bible" have ZERO predictive or explanatory power.
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