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@Athias
Do you have a more elegant or more precise explanation for variations in plants and animals?No. It's all trivial in my opinion. Then again, I never sought to explain it.
So is your "argument" that because you don't find the theory of evolution personally useful, that it is not useful to anyone?
If "it's all trivial" in your opinion, then why do you even bother engaging?
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@Athias
The standard is efficacy.Efficacious toward what?
A stated goal.
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@Mopac
We can say without a doubt that noumenon is not God, because God is not a mental object.
Please explain how you can possibly know if your hypothetical god is a "mental object" or not.
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@Mopac
Your "orthodoxy" is logically incoherent.The Orthodox Catholic Church recognizes monophysitism as a heresy, and thus not orthodox(orthodox meaning correct belief).
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@Dr.Franklin
So, according to your cited source, cannibalism was extremely rare in the new world and the best known examples are from Aztec rituals.
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@Athias
I'm retracting and claim of "randomness" and REPLACING it with a claim of "no detectable or decipherable order or pattern".Yet to be discovered evidence of an order or pattern is not proof of the contrary. That would be an argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantium.)
"No detectable or decipherable order or pattern" would seem to be an epistemologically defensible claim.
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@Dr.Franklin
Maybe because they eat each-other!Native Americans loved Columbus because they would have been FUCKING EATEN.
Please explain what you're talking about.
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@Greyparrot
So you would be Okay if Iran gave military aid to the UK to reclaim their colony. That's an insanely retarded position.
Please explain what you're talking about.
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@Greyparrot
Was Nazi Germany wrong for invading Poland?After all, Poland was taken away from Germany by force.Disgusting Nazi sympathizers.
The problem is that the USA just makes up the rules as they go.
What is the PRINCIPLED and moral action when native people are subjugated or forced off their land and painted as criminals and terrorists??????????????????????????????
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@mustardness
I saw this the other day and thought you might find it interesting, [LINK]
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@Mharman
Iran has promised to ramp up their uranium enrichment.
bEcause the ONLY reason they agreed to restrict and or delay their uranium enrichment was because they were told SANCTIONS WULD BE LIFTED.
And now that the USA has BROKEN THE DEAL and forced the EU and Russia and China to also BREAK THE DEAL, you can't be mad when Iran "ramps up their uranium enrichment".
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@Greyparrot
Hamas is regarded, either in whole or in part, as a terrorist organization by several countries and international organizations, most notably by Israel, the United States and the European Union.
Russia, China, and Turkey are among countries who do not regard it so. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
And when the Americans invaded the native tribes, were the native tribes "wrong" to "fight back"?
And when the Brits invaded the Americans, were the Americans "wrong" to "fight back"?
And when the Rohingya and the Kurds are branded as "terrorists" does that magically make them all "evil"?
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@Fallaneze
Well first, monism isn't necessarily true.
(IFF) two substances can interact (natural and super-natural or mental and physical) (THEN) they must be fundamentally the same.
(IFF) two substances can NOT interact (natural and super-natural or mental and physical) (THEN) they must be UNDETECTABLE to each other.
(THEREFORE) de facto monism is necessarily true.
Second, we have evidence of a mental reality and no evidence of a non-mental reality. So why is physicalism a better explanation than idealism when idealism is evidenced by a mental reality whereas physicalism, which posits a non-mental reality, has no evidence whatsoever?
We have evidence that our "mental reality" is shockingly incomplete.
We can deductively reason that noumenon is a logical necessity.
We can also logically deduce that we can't say much about noumenon except that it is non-infinite and is likely composed of some portion of unknown and some portion of unknowable features.
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@mustardness
What is a non-mental reality? Never heard of it?
Good question.
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@Athias
If evolution was mathematically demonstrable, then it would be by all scientific standards and definitions, a scientific law.
The standard is efficacy.
Do you have a more elegant or more precise explanation for variations in plants and animals?
Evolution only has to be "better" than nothing (or "the bible").
Perfection is not the goal of science.
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@Athias
with "no detectable or decipherable order or pattern"?That is logically fallacious.
Please explain.
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@Fallaneze
Then that leaves idealism..
Monism is necessarily true.
Idealism is NOT necessarily true.
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@Greyparrot
Where is your proof that Iran does not supply military hardware to Hamas and Isis?
Demanding "proof" of a negative claim is a CON-GAME TACTIC.
You can use any biased junk source you want if it has a shred of evidence.
You're missing the point.
Sixty-nine Palestinians were killed that night, two-thirds of whom were women and children. Fifty homes were demolished by the Israeli commandos. Sharon later wrote in his diary that he had received orders to inflict heavy damage on the Arab forces in the village: "The orders were utterly clear: Qibya was to be an example for everyone."
As the UN observers on the ground documented: "Witnesses [in Qibya] were uniform in describing their experience as a night of horror, during which Israel soldiers moved about in their village blowing up buildings, firing into doorways and windows with automatic weapons and throwing hand grenades." [LINK]
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@Fallaneze
Or is it dualism and physicalism that are in need of saving? We have evidence of a mental reality and no evidence of a non-mental reality.
Dualism is logically incoherent.
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@Greyparrot
The Tower Magazine is a monthly conservative, pro-Israel magazine devoted to long-form journalism about the Middle East.
The Tower is owned by The Israel Project, which is known as "Israel’s most effective nongovernmental public relations agency." [LINK]
Here's the funny thing. After years of protests, the Brits gave some territories back to their occupants.
They gave India and Pakistan back to their own people.
BUT instead of giving "the holy land" back to the people they stole it from, THEY ESTABLISHED A BRAND NEW STATE.
The people who owned that "holy" land are still mad about it. Just like the Indians. Just like the Pakistanis.
It was this armed aggression, and the ethnic cleansing of at least three-quarters of a million indigenous Palestinians, that created the Jewish state on land that had been 95 percent non-Jewish prior to Zionist immigration and that even after years of immigration remained 70 percent non-Jewish. And despite the shallow patina of legality its partisans extracted from the General Assembly, Israel was born over the opposition of American experts and of governments around the world, who opposed it on both pragmatic and moral grounds. [LINK]
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@zedvictor4
And Man created a God in his own image.For Man needed answers when there were none.But the answers now come thick and fast.And a New God riseth from the minds of clever Men.
For example, [LINK]
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@keithprosser
Well stated.The validity of the kalam argument is debatable, but it is also moot because even if it is valid it doesn't prove anything about the god of any religion, let alone of a particualar religion.
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@keithprosser
It is intended to imply that intelliegence and teleology play no role in determining the what and when of mutations - they happen 'randomly'.
And even if they were caused by intelligence and teleology, to us, they conform to no detectable or decipherable order or pattern.
In other words the mutations essential to the mechanism of evolution are currently unpredictable.
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@Athias
And "indistinguishable from randomness" would necessitate an ontological statement beyond epistemological limits. Have you observed randomness to an extent where you can relate it?
Would you be more comfortable with "no detectable or decipherable order or pattern"?
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@dustryder
Citation please.However I would argue that a properly implemented junk food tax that is focused on citizen health instead of additional revenue. And this can be seen in the various soda taxes that do just that
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@keithprosser
That is the problem with arguing about idealism... it's effectively irrefutable because it can just keep on retreating!
That is the problem with discussing hypotheticals that are unfalsifiable and beyond our epistemological limits.
THIS IS ACTUALLY THE STRONGEST CASE FOR ATHEISM, BUT IT MUST BE UNIVERSALLY APPLIED TO EVERYTHING.
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@keithprosser
How could you possibly know this?Clearly not, but I see that as evidence I am not in a solipsistic illusion.
This would seem to be an astronomical leap in logic.
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@keithprosser
But if I perceive a rock then anyone I am with will generally also preceive a rock. That implies that what causes my perception of the rock and my companioins perception is something external to both of us.
(IFF) you can't be certain "the rock" is really really realzies (THEN) how can you be certain your companion is really really realzies?
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@keithprosser
Imagine you are currently in a hypothetical solipsistic dream game matrix.I am not sure what you mean. But if,say, water is an illusion how reliable is it's bioing point being 100C?
Will boiling water burn your hand?
Will boiling water cook your food?
Will boiling water humidify the air in your kitchen?
In other words, can you violate the laws of physics?
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@Fallaneze
So something independent does need to exist in order to be our shared reference point but that does not mean that this independent thing is non-mental.
(IFF) "something" is the origin and sustainer of existence
(THEN) both must be fundamentally comprised of the same "substance"
(THEREFORE) monism is true (whether "mental" or "non-mental", they are functionally identical).
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@keithprosser
It's more that with CF I can't see what 'true' and 'false' mean.
Even in a hypothetical solipsistic dream game, scientific reliability and efficacy are still real-true-facts.
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@n8nrgmi
do you contest what the generals say, that if iran got nukes they would funnel them to terrorists?
This is naked speculation. If Iran developed nuclear weapons it would be a matter of national pride. They would finally get a seat at the table with the big kids. Why on earth does anyone think they would just give these away? Terrorism is a super low-budget operation. Terrorists are plenty scary with just a few bags of fertilizer and a panel van.
Terrorism is cheap, like when the USA supported (with CIA training, money and weapons) the Mujaheddin (who later became Al-Qaeda) to oust the Russians from Afghanistan.
Or when the USA staged a military coup against Iran's democratically elected leader for $10,000?
if you did contest it, your position would at least be plausible. but, ive heard it multiple times, and from what i can see, iran supports terrorists that even goes against USA interests at times, like our troops.
Right, like in the Iran-Iraq war when the USA supported Saddam Hussein (the good guy).
i can acknowledge that there are two sides to every story, and iran has an argument to make at why it does what it does. but that doesn't mean we should give power to them when they've already establshed they are bad actors, and our military and government deem them to be a nuclear proliferation risk. if you see people in a bar fight, using bad tactics, both with some merit to why they're fighting, and that spills over to our people and interests.... do you let them both have guns? doesn't it make more sense to stop them and prevent things from getting out of hand?
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein
History seems to have proven that you can get a lot more material benefit from threatening to nuke people than you can from actually nuking people.
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@keithprosser
Well stated.The opposite is 'assertoric'' which means neither self-evident nor proven. For example, Fermat's last theorem was assertoric for 358 years but became apodictic in 1994.
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@keithprosser
I'm not sure a hypothesis can "prove" anything.I don't know what can't be proven with 'consciousness first'.
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@TwoMan
Even a "dirt first" hypothesis doesn't have anything at all to say about what "caused" the big bang.Agreed. A primordial consciousness does.
What conclusions can you draw from a "primordial consciousness" (Brahman) hypothesis?
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@n8nrgmi
You might find this interesting. 10 minutes [LINK]
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@n8nrgmi
also, iran supports terrorists.
Before he became president, Trump said the “world’s biggest funder of terrorism” was Saudi Arabia – not Iran. So is his latest claim is just political rhetoric?
There are no “right” or “wrong” answers here, because it depends how we interpret Trump’s claim. For instance, does “leading sponsor” mean the country that channels the most cash to terrorist groups? Or does it refer to the biggest strategic threat to America?
And which groups are being counted as “terrorists”? The term is the subject of frequent debate; it’s often said that one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter.
Because of these ambiguities, the issue will ultimately come down to personal opinion. But here are some factors we think are important. [LINK]
Clearly "terrorist" simply means "we don't like you".
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@n8nrgmi
should all the kids on the play ground get a gun, cause they are all soveriegn? even the kids who are bullies and show their willingness to use the guns to murder people? even if we can prevent it?get real.
(EITHER) make all of the kids your friends (OR) make all the kids your slaves.
If a kid is not your friend and is not your slave, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO.
At this point the USA has convinced the other kids to stop playing with Iran. Iran is lonely and hungry and angry.
The USA is reaching for their gun and Russia says, if you shoot Iran, we'll shoot you back.
Now everybody's just standing around staring at Iran, wondering why they're so mad "all of a sudden", just waiting for them to snap so the USA can "prove" to everyone just how "insane" and "dangerous" they are.
The really funny thing is this isn't anything new. [LINK]
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@n8nrgmi
we can't stop people from killing with guns, but if they are bad guys with a past, we can try to stop them. you aren't making a legitimate point.
How bad is bad? Do you mean like "Russia bad" or "China bad" or "Pakistan bad" or "Saudia Arabia bad"?
you're being illogical.
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@n8nrgmi
military generals take it as a given that if iran gets nukes, they will funnel them to terrorists.
Do you live in a world where people are punished for being hypothetically capable of committing a crime?
Do you live in a world where people are punished for being accused of a crime?
Or do you live in a world where people actually have to commit a crime BEFORE they are punished for it?
The USA can't just attack every country that says "I don't like you".
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@n8nrgmi
Maybe you missed this bit of news... [LINK]that's why evil people can't have guns.
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@n8nrgmi
where the talk of wiping out other countries?
The sparring between India and Pakistan last month threatened to spiral out of control and only interventions by U.S. officials, including National Security Advisor John Bolton, headed off a bigger conflict, five sources familiar with the events said.
At one stage, India threatened to fire at least six missiles at Pakistan, and Islamabad said it would respond with its own missile strikes “three times over”, according to Western diplomats and government sources in New Delhi, Islamabad and Washington. [LINK]
North Korea threatened South Korea with “final destruction” during a debate at the United Nations Conference on Disarmament on Tuesday, saying it could take further steps after a nuclear test last week. [LINK]
2005: Chinese general threatened to nuclear bomb the U.S..
Chinese general warns of nuclear risk to US
"A senior Chinese general has warned that his country could destroy hundreds of American cities with nuclear weapons if the two nations clashed over Taiwan."
2006: China threatened to nuclear bomb Japan
The president or premier of China said it in March 2006.
This was one of links to communist websites in China that carried the story. China removed the story after it got so much attention.
moreover:
China doesn't care about its economy when it comes to war. China's leaders have already said that going to war is more important than its economy
As the former Soviet Union faces tough sanctions from the Obama Administration and European Union (EU) in the wake of Russia’s annexation of Crimea and incursion into Eastern Ukraine, Putin threatens the United States. The Russian president fired off more ominous rhetoric as his country’s Ruble and economy continue to suffer. Vladimir Putin warns that the continued “hostile” posturing from the West and its partners could have “nuclear consequences.” [LINK]
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@n8nrgmi
those other countries may be worse than i realize, but that doesn't mean iran should have nukes. if we could have stopped the other countries, we should have too, if they are bad actors. do you seriously think it's alright for evil countries should have nukes?
Try and look at it this way.
There are a bunch of kids on a playground. Some kids are bigger than others. Some kids are more aggressive than others. And some kids have sticks and some kids have knives and some kids have slingshots and then one day, one of the kids gets a gun.
That kid (USA) with a gun can automatically get cooperation from the other kids without even brandishing the gun. Everybody on the playground knows they have the gun. Everybody knows what happened when they pulled the trigger on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Then some other kids get guns (Russia, China) and they feel more secure, they don't feel implicitly coerced by the USA. They feel they can negotiate as equals.
Then the USA starts giving guns to their friends. Then Russia and China start giving guns to their friends.
Then the USA and Russia and China (UN Security Council) realize this is getting a little out of hand and decide to sign a non-proliferation treaty that basically says, "everyone who has a gun can keep it, but no new guns".
North Korea and Iran say, "you're not the boss of me, you guys aren't the king of the world, if I can figure out how to build a gun, you can't stop me".
Nobody "granted permission" to the USA and Russia and China before they got their guns.
The USA doesn't have any right to make rules for SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES.
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@n8nrgmi
are those other countries known for supporting terrorism? if they do, i dont hear about it like i do with iran.
"We see the Pakistanis continuing to provide safe harbour, havens inside of Pakistan for terrorists who present risks to the United States of America," Mr Pompeo was quoted as saying by the CBS news. [LINK]
Osama bin Laden's compound, known locally as the Waziristan Haveli (Urdu: وزیرستان حویلی), was an upper-class mansion that was used as a safe house for militant Islamist Osama bin Laden, who was shot and killed there by U.S. forces on May 2, 2011. The compound was located at the end of a dirt road 1,300 metres (0.8 mi) southwest of the Pakistan Military Academy in Bilal Town, Abbottabad, Pakistan, a suburb housing many retired military officers. [LINK]
How is Iran more dangerous than Pakistan or North Korea?
While North Korea may be moving to ratchet up the crisis, not even Washington's hawks are pushing for a military response — at least not yet. Its conventional artillery capability would allow North Korea to flatten Seoul in the first half-hour of any confrontation. The human cost of going to war may too prohibitive in this instance. [LINK]
How is Iran more dangerous than Saudi Arabia?
The hijackers in the September 11 attacks were 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda. 15 of the 19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia. [LINK]
do those other countries state that their goal is to wipe out other countries? iran did that while obama was president about israel.
The sparring between India and Pakistan last month threatened to spiral out of control and only interventions by U.S. officials, including National Security Advisor John Bolton, headed off a bigger conflict, five sources familiar with the events said.
At one stage, India threatened to fire at least six missiles at Pakistan, and Islamabad said it would respond with its own missile strikes “three times over”, according to Western diplomats and government sources in New Delhi, Islamabad and Washington. [LINK]
are those other countries religious fanatics? they seem more secular as far as i can tell.
LUNATICS come in all shapes and sizes. Was Jeffrey Dahmer a religious fanatic? Was Adolf Hitler a religious fanatic? If the U.S. bombed every country full of religious fanatics, they'd have to start by bombing themselves.
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@TwoMan
Dualism is logically incoherent.It certainly doesn't support those ideas either. A consciousness first hypothesis supports something similar to dualism.
Ghosts can (EITHER) interact with matter (fundamentally identical) (OR) NOT interact with matter (fundamentally separate).
(IFF) ghosts CAN interact with matter (THEN) they are fundamentally the same substance as matter (THEREFORE) monism is true.
(IFF) ghosts CAN'T interact with matter (THEN) they are fundamentally separate (AND) can safely be ignored forever (THEREFORE) de facto monism is true (ghosts can safely be said to be indistinguishable from non-existent).
We're really talking specially about HUMAN consciousness (first or not first).
Even a "dirt first" hypothesis doesn't have anything at all to say about what "caused" the big bang. [LINK]
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@TwoMan
Epistemological limits aside, "knowing" (hypothetically proven as a fact) that consciousness came before matter could mean the possibility of the existence of God, reincarnation or some type of existence after the physical body dies, etc. It wouldn't definitively answer any of those questions but it would be evidence that could sway minds to a more spiritual life and a conception of existence after death.
A "dirt first" hypothesis does not logically exclude ghosts, gods and goblins.
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@Athias
Perhaps you'd be more comfortable with "indistinguishable from randomness"?Yes, it does. Natural selection does this as well through a converse construction of the orthogenesis argument, but instead having "nature" as the designer--or as it's usually disguised, "randomness." Asserting randomness is also beyond the epistemological limits of science.
Or do you have some other term in mind?
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@TwoMan
From a personal perspective they could be extremely profound.
Like what?
If the question itself is beyond our epistemological limits, the practical benefits or efficacy of the competing hypotheses would seem to be the only data we could possibly use to compare our options.
From what I can currently tell, they appear to be indistinguishable.
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@nagisa3
But are you making a distinction without a difference?I am asking the justification of your belief, not saying you are ruling out being wrong. I also think there is a difference between faith and blind faith. You can have faith in something (I think faith = believing despite lack of justification) while still admitting you could be wrong and weighing evidence as it becomes available. But blind faith is with no regard to any evidence. It seems to me you have a belief without justification so faith, but are open to considering evidence if any were to appear, so assuredly not blind faith. That's my take at least. But as far as the thread goes, I have yet to see a decent argument for the existence of God/god(s) (not that this is your argument, you seem to be on the secular side).
I mean, what do you think are the logical consequences of a "consciousness first" hypothesis?
What do you think are the logical consequences of a "matter first" hypothesis?
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