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@ethang5
1. Would a human embryo become a human adult if it lived?2. Is there any time along that development when it isn't human?3. If I deliberately kill a two week old embryo in the womb without harming the mother but without her consent, what should I be charged with?4. If you had been "discarded" as an embryo, would that have killed you?
1. This is unknowable. Billions of embryos are miscarried naturally. Do you propose charging these women with manslaughter or criminal child abuse?
2. A human embryo becomes an individual human when it is born. Just like a chicken. A chicken embryo is not a chicken until it hatches.
3. Assault. Your example is the same as saying, "if I removed a woman's appendix without otherwise harming the woman, what should I be charged with". The answer is assault.
4. This is unknowable. Your hypothesis is untestable. Perhaps there would be someone very similar, if not identical to me doing the exact same things that I do. Perhaps not.
Our disagreement seems to hinge on the idea that the embryo must be protected at all costs simply because it may at some point become an individual human being.
Why don't you try saving every human being on earth that has already been born?
Perhaps after you've saved every actual human being from pain and suffering and disease and death, then you can start desperately trying to save all the embryos.
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@ethang5
Ok mr. logical worldview, what definition of "person" are you referring to?
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@ethang5
1. Would a human sperm become a human adult if it lived?1. Would a human embryo become a human adult if it lived?2. Is there any time along that development when it isn't human?3. If I deliberately kill a two week old embryo in the womb without harming the mother but without her consent, what should I be charged with?4. If you had been "discarded" as an embryo, would that have killed you?
2. Is there any time along that development when it isn't human?
3. If you deliberately damage any part of another human being you will be charged with assault.
4. If you had been "discarded" as a sperm, would that have killed you?
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@mustardness
Fetus is not a citizen.Fetus is not an independent individual.Sperm is alive and has no brain.Egg is alive and has no brain.
Well stated.
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@ethang5
Do you believe it is murder for fertility clinics to discard human embryos?
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Please do not post your answers to these questions.
I found this interesting because people who score low on this test seem to be more successful socially.
Self-Deception Questionnaire
Gur, R. C , & Sackeim, H. A. (1979). Self-deception: A concept in search of a
phenomenon. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 37. 147-169.
Questions: (not at all) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (very much so)
1. Have you ever felt hatred toward either
of your parents?
2. Do you ever feel guilty?
3. Does every attractive person of the
opposite sex turn you on?
4. Have you ever felt like you wanted to
kill somebody?
5. Do you ever get angry?
6. Do you ever have thoughts that you
don’t want other people to know that you
have?
7. Do you ever feel attracted to people of
the same sex?
8. Have you ever made a fool of yourself?
9. Are there things in your life that make
you feel unhappy?
10. Is it important to you that other people
think highly of you?
11. Would you like to know what other
people think of you?
12. Were your parents ever mean to you?
13. Do you have any bad memories?
14. Have you ever thought that your
parents hated you?
15. Do you have sexual fantasies?
16. Have you ever been uncertain as to
whether or not you are homosexual?
17. Have you ever doubted your sexual
adequacy?
18. Have you ever enjoyed your bowel
movements?
19. Have you ever wanted to rape or be
raped by someone?
20. Have you ever thought of committing
suicide in order to get back at someone?
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@Mharman
Giving people free points for participating isn't going to encourage anything. No one gets motivated by participation trophies.
This statement is provably false.
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@Mharman
No. It's doesn't encourage anything. It's basically just consolation points for losing.
Rewarding participation encourages participation.
It takes a fair amount of effort to compete in a formal debate.
If I have no faith in the impartiality of the judges or the fair mindedness of my random opponent, a point for a tie seems a small thing to ask.
Also, a tie is not a loss.
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@Grugore
A little something called evidence. The Bible has never been proven wrong in anything it says. Granted, not all of it can be proven true, but none of it has been proven false.
What part of the Bardo Thodol has been proven false?
What part of the Bhagavad Gita has been proven false?
What part of any of the other ancient books has been proven false?
Not being proven false is a very low standard of evidence that is met by any number of ridiculous beliefs including alien abductions and big foot.
ANd, the modern Christian Bible is riddled with contradictions:
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@Grugore
They've got stories of miracles written in old books, just like you.None of the religions you mentioned have a Savior who performed miracles then died and rose again. Try again.
Why would anyone believe one old book and ignore all the other old books?
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@Grugore
Christians are simply warning you about a cosmic electrical outlet. But you go right ahead and ignore the warnings. Let us know how that works out.
The Hindus are simply warning you about your karmic debt. But you go right ahead and ignore the warnings. Let us know how that works out.
The Muslims are simply warning you about Jahannam. But you go right ahead and ignore the warnings. Let us know how that works out.
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@ethang5
Ho-hum, another ad hominem? How incredibly predictable.
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@ethang5
Ho-hum, another ad hominem? How incredibly predictable.
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@Mharman
Since a stalemate is a draw game, in tournament chess or scoring chess, each side would score half a point.
If the point is to encourage debate, it seems that some minimum points should be awarded for a tie.
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@MagicAintReal
I like to imagine that ethang5 is a very sophisticated AI.
The thing is simply grasping at straws because it scores points when you reply to it.
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@MagicAintReal
Please don't doxx yourself.
Your identity is only useful for ad hominem attacks.
It doesn't matter if you are a world renown billionaire super genius or a homeless person.
You should be able to defend your positions with logic.
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@ethang5
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In summary, this is the main lesson (glimmering gem) I learned in the process of this debate -
PRO says, (pr3.1) I'd say that "existence" is probably not the best word to describe noumenon (mainly because the definition of "exists" requires empirical verifiability). I believe it is a mistake to imagine noumenon as some sort of "thing" when it is merely an amorphous concept that acts as a place-holder for both "what we don't currently know" (Mysterium Invisus) and "what may be fundamentally unknowable" (Magnum Mysterium). For example, noumenon might be eleventy-trillion layers of sci-fi multiverse, noumenon might be an elaborate alien computer simulation, noumenon might be Brahma's dream, noumenon might be a single super-intelligent (but not omniscient) demiurge that we humans are merely appendages of. In all likelihood, it is conceptually, literally, ultimately and completely beyond our ability to comprehend. All of this makes it very very very difficult for me to believe that we can consider (with any degree of confidence whatsoever) that noumenon is itself comprised of 100% pure, uncut, "objective reality". I mean since noumenon may involve a great many (likely) possibly subjective layers (simulation/dream/multiverse) below our primitive perceptions, although we can deduce with the confidence afforded us by our logic, that there must be, at some level, "real" and "true" and "objective" "reality", we cannot have any confidence that what we are able to perceive has anything-at-all to do with the-hypothetical-objective-essence directly. It's like the old story of the princess and the pea. Clearly there is "something" under the bed, but what are the chances that a normal person would be able to detect it through ninety-nine high-quality mattresses(?).
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@Vaarka
Plato's Parable of the MMORPG,
Once upon a time there were a number of people who lived in complete darkness and the only thing they could see was their computer screens.
What they saw on their screens was their reality.
The only other people they knew were people in-game with magnificent costumes and weapons.
Sure they had to fumble in the darkness in order to microwave a quick meal, or find their bed when they were exhausted, but those were merely incidental inconveniences.
Only the game was real. Only the game was shared experience. Only in-game places and people and items were quantifiable, able to be observed and verified and shared with other players (quanta).
Sometimes an individual would try to explain what kind of food they ate or describe their room (private/personal/unshared knowledge, gnosis) but since none of this information was directly relevant in-game and was fundamentally unverifiable, it was dismissed out-of-hand as unintelligible nonsense. In fact, even the language they had developed had evolved exclusively for in-game interactions, so there really weren't any proper words for "food" or "room" that were not specifically in-game references, and even more than that, since there was no taste, touch, or smell in-game, there were also no words to properly describe those sensations as well.
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@MagicAintReal
...agnostic and gnostic refer to KNOWLEDGE (gnostic) and atheist and theist refer to BELIEF (theist).
This actually makes a lot of sense.
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@SkepticalOne
I'm not going to say that Russell's teapot is NOT in orbit around Mars.
But I'm also not going to say that Russell's teapot IS in orbit around Mars.
And I'm certainly not going to base any important life decisions on the unlikely bet that Russell's teapot IS in orbit around Mars.
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@BrutalTruth
Atheists ostensibly reject superstitious fairy-tales and religious beliefs because they are logically impossible/unknowable and unverifiable and unfalsifiable and categorically outside the scope of scientific exploration.
However, a surprising number self-described atheists believe in other obviously false concepts without question.
Below are just a few examples of faith based beliefs held by many atheists.
1) Free-Will
This is often defended as "an essential prerequisite to human happiness" the exact same way that religious people try say that religion is "an essential prerequisite to human happiness".
You will also hear the very common "we can't possibly know therefore I choose to believe". This is exactly the same as the theist that argues for "god in the gaps".
The fact that Free-Will is logically impossible and unverifiable and unfalsifiable and categorically outside the scope of scientific exploration is dismissed out-of-hand.
2) Objective Reality
This is often defended as "an essential prerequisite to human sanity" the exact same way that religious people try say that religion is "an essential prerequisite to human morality".
The fact that Objective Reality is logically unknowable and unverifiable and unfalsifiable and categorically outside the scope of scientific exploration is dismissed out-of-hand.
3) Infinity
Phrases get tossed around like, "infinite potential" and "infinite possibilities" and "the infinite cosmos". Max Planck has shown that our reality is NOT infinitely divisible, and we can extrapolate logically that human potential may be "unknown" but it is certainly not "unbounded".
The fact that Infinity is logically impossible and unverifiable and unfalsifiable and categorically outside the scope of scientific exploration is dismissed out-of-hand.
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@Paul
If an alien on another planet looks at the night sky does he see the stars like we do?
Distant beings will see a much different universe than we currently observe.
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@Paul
Where did the picture in your avatar come from?
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@Paul
Probably the 1995 Terry Gilliam masterpiece "Brazil".
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@ethang5
It is the State's responsibility to protect the rights of everyone within it's borders, citizens or non.
This is an interesting statement considering your position on immigration.
No one anywhere is free if anyone anywhere is enslaved.
I guess your solution to slavery is to simply deny that it exists.
Current estimated number of people working under forced labor in Ghana: 133,000
424 consumer products produced by child labor and forced labor:
Top 5 consumer goods produced by child labor and forced labor:
Sugarcane
Cotton
Coffee
Tobacco
Beef
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Most people don't know their own epistemology or ontology. Most people mistake questions for personal attacks. Most people mistake confidence in logic for bull-headedness. Aiming to be objective is a fool's errand and completely missing the point. Bias needs to be identified and embraced and analysed and subjected to logical scrutiny, not blindly eliminated. I simply try to avoid making ad-hominem attacks. I imagine everyone on this site is simply a collection of computer programs. When logic is the only standard, it is ridiculous to try to attack someone's motives or identity. You don't have to agree with me about id and ego and super-ego, but I find it to be a useful framework, and if there is a better framework, I sincerely want to know about it. So it seems, that in your opinion, the concept of personal identity is an irreducible concept.
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@ethang5
I think murder anywhere is a moral evil. I am against it. And I certainly don't want to fund murder.
Wait, are you against killing, or just "murder". I think we may have found the problem. I'm not sure you can "murder" a zygote.
And don't pretend it's about money because abortions are vastly less expensive than childcare.
The opposite of life is death.
You can't pretend the opposite of life is "murder".
If you are against death, then act like it.
It is the state that guards the rights of the people within it. The baby has a right to life. The state has a responsibility to protect it.
You only become a citizen of the state when you are BORN. The state protects citizens. If you have no birth certificate, you cannot be a citizen.
No one anywhere is free if anyone anywhere is enslaved. The murder of babies affects me. I am against the murder of innocent defenseless babies.
According to the 13th amendment, prisoners can be enslaved. Do conservatives want to fix that?
Also, about half of the chocolate in the world is produced by slaves.
Also, most of the bananas grown in the world are produced by slaves.
Also, many of the consumer products exported from China are produced by slaves.
No. Do you?
At what point do you imagine a fertilized egg becomes a citizen of the state?
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@keithprosser
Oh, behold, as the ancient teleological fallacy beast swims from the depths and pokes its nose once more at the surface.
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@ethang5
Why exactly are you personally concerned about whether or not a random woman decides to carry a pregnancy to term?
How is this an issue for law enforcement?
How does this affect your life?
Do you believe that every sperm is a baby?
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@ethang5
Conservatives only care about life very selectively.
Conservatives go insane about the unborn zygotes, but don't give a sh*t about babies that are actually born.
IF YOU WANT TO STOP ABORTION, INCREASE FUNDING TO HELP SINGLE MOTHERS AND THEIR CHILDREN.
Conservatives love to go on and on about how much they value life, but don't seem to care for anyone who doesn't look like them or share their beliefs.
Conservatives say they worship life and are horrified by death, and yet they are the first ones to dismantle diplomacy in favor of bombs.
Conservatives claim they respect life and want to reduce government spending and yet waste literally millions of dollars in order for a mere chance to kill prisoners and watch them die in a special theater of death. Conservatives are the ones who love to watch people die.
Conservatives believe everyone who breaks a law, regardless of how unfair or arbitrary that law is, deserves any consequence including death.
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@Plisken
Good point.
Can a being be considered omnipotent if they are not omnipresent?
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@Mopac
Noumenon is not simply a mental construct, it is the logical necessity (prerequisite to phenomenon).
If you want to say that "god" is the logical necessity (prerequisite to phenomenon), then it is indistinguishable from noumenon.
The difference between the two is merely stylistic.
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@Mopac
You can't even admit that reality as it truly is exists.
Noumenon "exists" purely as a logical necessity.
You can't do it because for you to say that exists is to say God exists.
I have no problem equating gods with noumenon.
You can't even admit that reality as it truly is exists.
Reality exists by definition. Reality is testable and verifiable with the scientific method.
You can't do it because for you to say that exists is to say God exists.
I have no problem with your semantic (ontological) choice of exchanging the word "god" for noumenon.
I understand that if you admitted The Truth, you couldn't play your character anymore.
I'm pretty sure the one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Please explain further.
Well, God is a wizard slayer, oh fool of fools.
Please explain further.
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In my understanding, id is your inner-child (gimme ice-cream), ego is your adult-inner-voice (get out of bed and go to work), and super-ego is your old-wise-grandparent (people tend to act selfishly, try not to take it too personally) who has a detached curiosity and broader, more abstract overview of how the world functions that is less ego-centric.
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@EtrnlVw
Even the atom has an awareness, so yes they are alive. Would you say they are not?
This would seem to be an ontological problem.
I see it as a sliding scale, I was attempting to calibrate your perspective.
So, in your view, the phenomenon of the big bang is, itself, evidence of life/intelligence?
This would seem to short-circuit any discussion of abiogenesis.
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@Paul
Which branch of science are you most interested in and how do you know that the study at the link is not false?
I am primarily self-interested.
I never make the mistake of believing any particular story or source is 100% true.
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@ethang5
Conservatives have not made preventative medicine or health care in general a priority at all. We agree on this point.
If conservatives cared about "life" they would make "life" a top priority.
Conservatives are pro-suffering. We agree on this point.
If conservatives cared about "life", they would give refuge to people fleeing war zones.
Humans can live perfectly healthy lives without refined sugar. Humans will not die without refined sugar.
Literally millions of conservatives are addicted to prescription pain killers.
You can't defend our military killing millions of people who have never declared war on our country and still pretend that you care about "life".
The Vietnamese people were not "knocking at our door", neither were the Iraqis, or the Afghans, or the Libyans.
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@EtrnlVw
What is your standard of "truth"?
How do you determine if someone is lying when they describe something unverifiable, like for example, a dream?
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@Mopac
Russia has not abolished private property.
The United States Government has massacred thousands of helpless people.
The United States Government has enslaved thousands of helpless people.
All forms of Government are simply, by their very definition, oppressive.
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@SkepticalOne
Well stated.1)If no evidence is expected then there can be no evidence for or against.2)If evidence is reasonably expected then lack of it is evidence against existence."God" needs to be defined before we can determined which scenario above is applicable.
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@janesix
I experienced God two times, and He communicated with me. He changed my consciousness to do this.
What you are describing is gnosis.
Gnosis is not considered "evidence" because of its unverifiable (personal, private) nature.
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@ethang5
Pro death penalty is PRO-DEATH no matter what silly conservative spin you try to put on it.
Anti abortion is to be against single mothers and against PERSONAL-SOVEREIGNTY.
Conservatives are against illegal immigration. Liberals are also against illegal immigration. Nothing you say will change a lie into truth.
Conservatives are currently for increasing barriers to LEGAL immigration. Liberals are currently for decreasing barriers to LEGAL immigration.
Conservatives are anti-homosexual, they are not anti disease. The number one killer for almost a century is heart disease. The number two killer is cancer. Conservatives have not made preventative medicine or health care in general a priority at all.
Conservatives are pro-suffering, that is why they don't lobby the govt to make voluntary death a law. Stopping terminally ill patients from being able to choose when to die peacefully is not a pro-life position. These people will die either way. One is simply more tragic and painful than the other.
Recreational drugs, including alcohol and cigarettes and cigars and caffeine and sugar are for the stupid. Drugs, including alcohol and cigarettes and cigars and caffeine and sugar are not for recreation. That is a pathway to overdose and death (especially with alcohol). No pharmaceutical company sells recreational drugs, but they sell drugs with nearly identical physiological effects. Liberals do not encourage, but allow the use of recreational drugs, including alcohol and cigarettes and cigars and caffeine and sugar and support the principle of PERSONAL-SOVEREIGNTY.
Your conservative spin won't work. Death is the core of all your positions (especially where the military is concerned).
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@Outplayz
It could have happened naturally in some freak amazing occurrence, or was set in motion by something else. The something else is just more attractive in my opinion but i don't discount the latter as maybe being the case too.
Well stated.
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@Mopac
For the abolition of capitalism in Russia has been taken by many Americans to mean that the Russians cannot own any personal property whatever. That is not true. The Soviet leaders draw a sharp distinction between ownership of capital for private gain,and ownership of various forms of personal property—houses, books, domestic utensils, clothes, furniture, automobiles, and the like—for private use.
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@EtrnlVw
Is a self-replicating molecule "alive"?
Is a self-replicating virus "alive"?
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@Mopac
My faith is in The Truth, not knowledge.
Thank you for explaining that.
It actually makes a lot of sense now.
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@Mopac
Communists don't believe people should own anything or have individual identity.You can add that to the death cult list.
Please explain why you believe any of this.
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@Mopac
Gnosticism is a heresy
Your entire position is pure gnosticism.
Please explain the difference between what you believe and what you think gnosticism actually is.
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