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@SkepticalOne
Parler was dropped for inciting violence and violating community standards. This is a huge no-brainer. Amazon should win.
not to mention there are plenty of examples of people on twitter and other hosted sites "inciting violence"
shouldn't they all be dropped if one of them is dropped ?
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@K_Michael
My main thought on the "problem" of free will is that it doesn't matter. I'm not going to start behaving differently if free will isn't a thing vs. if it is.
accepting indeterminism does tend to help people become somewhat less vindictive
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@K_Michael
Personally, I am of the camp that no such thing can exist. Any process complicated enough to emulate conscious thought must itself be intelligent enough to just be conscious.
GPT3
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@K_Michael
If we define free will as the ability of a person (human or otherwise) to act in a way that isn't determined simply by the laws of the universe or "fate," then I would argue that humans do not possess free will.
well stated
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@Sidewalker
let me walk you through this slowly,
(1) YES OR NO - do we agree that 100% deterministic events makes "free-will" impossible ?
(2) YES OR NO - do we agree that 100% non-causal events makes "free-will" impossible ?
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@Sidewalker
sentence fragment "a boatload of scientific evidence" that
refusing to support your own claims is not a particularly persuasive tactic
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@Sidewalker
insect "seeking" behavior follows the same principle as a "heat seeking missile"
no "consciousness" required
only empirical observation
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@SkepticalOne
Parler was dropped for inciting violence and violating community standards. This is a huge no-brainer. Amazon should win.
does amazon refuse to host anyone protesting their own government like in egypt or hong-kong (which included threats of violence) ?
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@SkepticalOne
Parler was dropped for inciting violence and violating community standards. This is a huge no-brainer. Amazon should win.
does amazon refuse to host anyone promoting war ?
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@Lemming
are religious teachings "dangerous lies" ?
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@IwantRooseveltagain
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@Public-Choice
There's Gab.
and gettr and odysee and blurt and steem and rumble and substack and flote and dtube and parler and 3speak and subscribestar and ipfs and presearch
when people say "there is no alternative" (to google and facebook and twitter and youtube)
they simply aren't looking
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@Lemming
PLEASE PROTECT US
PLEASE PROTECT US FROM MEDICAL MISINFORMATION
PLEASE PROTECT US FROM FINANCIAL MISINFORMATION
PLEASE PROTECT US FROM RELIGIOUS MISINFORMATION
PLEASE PROTECT US FROM SCIENTIFIC MISINFORMATION
PLEASE PROTECT US
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@Sidewalker
How do you quantify insects "seeking".
scientific observation
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@Sidewalker
Do you think insects are seeking to reduce cognitive dissonance?
insects seek food and shelter and reproductive opportunities
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@Sidewalker
False dichotomies are not problems that need to be solved.
a tautology is not a "false dichotomy"
there is only
determined (cause and effect)
and or
uncaused (functionally random)
and or
some MIX OF THE TWO
please explain which "other option" you personally believe i'm overlooking here
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@Sidewalker
a boatload of scientific evidence
please link to this "boatload of scientific evidence" supporting "free-will"
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@Sidewalker
"The very process by which you want to translate qualitative experiences into measurable quantities that do not themselves exhibit the qualitative constituents of experience, fundamentally changes the subject matter of the investigation such that the resultant account of consciousness is a contradiction in terms."
please present your personally preferred definition of "consciousness"
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@Sidewalker
please explain what point you think this obsession with contradiction makes.
seeking logical coherence is the only way to reduce cognitive dissonance
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@Double_R
The proposal that resulted in Fox News was literally titled “a plan for putting the GOP on television”.
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@Public-Choice
Just because it is propaganda that doesn't mean other stations lie less.
exactly
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@Double_R
I have no idea what this has to do with our conversation.
do you believe that adult humans have more "free-will" and therefore more "moral responsibility" than human children ?
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
(IFF) free-will is proportional to intelligence (animals and infants have less, adult humans have more)
(AND) free-will is proportional to moral culpability (without free-will there is no moral culpability)
(THEN) intelligence is proportional to moral culpability.
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@Sidewalker
In the end, there is no valid basis upon which the rejection of Free Will can be said to be true of reality.
do you believe insects have "free-will" ?
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@SkepticalOne
parler paid aws for hosting and still got cut
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@Sidewalker
The strongest argument for the existence of free will is that we all observe it during every conscious moment, it is a fundamental and significant part of our experiential reality at all times, hence it is self-evident, a brute fact.
the FEELING of "free-will" is a private and personal gnostic experience that cannot be verified by science and therefore does not qualify as a "fact"
any more than the personal experience of "god's love" qualifies as a "fact"
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@Sidewalker
Your argument that reality is either universally determined or universally random is nonsense,
or a clever mix of both
which doesn't solve either "problem"
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@Sidewalker
Xeno’s paradox does not prove that motion is impossible,
xeno's "paradox" proves that space is not "infinitely divisible" and is instead, like max planck explains, divisible only to a point
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@Sidewalker
The real free will debate is about whether we have the cognitive ability to conceive of future courses of action, deliberate about various reasons for choosing among them, determine our actions on the basis of such deliberation, and control our actions despite the presence of competing desires. If we do have these abilities, and we can exercise these cognitive abilities to act without our actions being unreasonably compromised by external pressure, then we possess free will and human beings are morally responsible causal agents.
how do you propose we quantify "intent" ?
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@Sidewalker
Physical determinism is not logically valid because physical science is an empirical endeavor, not a logically conclusive process and the physical evidence has never justified the assumption of determinism by any stretch of the imagination.
i'm not arguing for "physicalism"
and i'm also not arguing for "determinism"
my position is "indeterminism"
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@Sidewalker
You still need to provide an extraordinary argument supporting your extraordinary claim.
(IFF) an action and or event is truly "uncaused" (THEN) that action and or event cannot possibly be contextual (goal oriented)
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@Sidewalker
Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates. A conscious state includes a desire or intention, it includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state. Such conscious states can have causal effect to bring about further states for the sake of values and purposes, and intents, values, and purposes are not reducible to the purely physical state of your deterministic argument.
do we "freely-choose" what we desire ?
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@Double_R
(IFF) free-will is proportional to intelligence (animals and infants have less, adult humans have more)
(AND) free-will is proportional to moral culpability (without free-will there is no moral culpability)
(THEN) intelligence is proportional to moral culpability.
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@Double_R
When we talk about having control over our actions, the only concept we can apply is that which aligns with human experience. Anything beyond that is purely made up.
so, basically, if you "feel free" then you "are free" ?
even if there is no way to QUANTIFY this "freedom" ?
do children have "free-will" (and as such are solely and fully morally responsible for their actions) ?
(IFF) children do not have "free-will" (THEN) at what point do they receive it ?
how can "free-will" be measured and or verified scientifically ?
do dogs have "free-will" ?
does a spider have "free-will" ?
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@Lemming
showing crime on television promotes criminal behavior
i don't care what standard of "harm" you want to use
my only request is for UNIFORM ENFORCEMENT
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@Lemming
words are not a crime
if i write a book
about a serial-killer
and someone copies the crimes in-real-life
am i responsible ?
it has been shown that television shows that feature characters committing suicide
can be correlated with actual suicides after such an episode airs
should we make talking about suicide illegal ?
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@Shila
"objective" does not mean "majority opinion"
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@Ehyeh
do you not believe there can be aspects to a truth, or multiple moral truths? I don't think truth has to be black and white, where something is either true or untrue, something can be partly true, partly true without error even, but not the whole truth. It seems to me that two people can have correct assessments of a situation, person or thing, while their perspectives are polar opposites, its only when we synthesise the two do we find a more complete truth. This could arguably go on ad infininitum. Is there a limit to the body of knowledge, and therefore truth? the philosophy you promote seems to think "yes", to that answer.
there is a very clear line between QUANTA and QUALIA
REAL-TRUE-FACTS must be Quantifiable, empirically demonstrable, and or Logically-Necessary (QUANTA)
OPINION on the other hand, is experiential, personal, gnostic, unfalsifiable, and qualitative (QUALIA)
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@Double_R
please explain the logic of "free-will" ?at what point are your actions free of previous influence ?Your actions are free from influence when they are made without being forced or coerced.
your actions are influenced by many factors you probably don't even notice
and very few of these qualify as overt "force" or coercion
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@Lemming
If I were to spread a false and dirty rumor about someone,It seems to me I'd have some responsibility in people 'acting on said rumor?
how exactly ?
the best example of this is the Nuremburg trials after ww2
where soldiers were held personally responsible for "following orders"
they tried to defend themselves by saying "i had no choice but to follow the commands of my superiors"
but that "excuse" was not accepted by the court
how much less if the perceived "orders" are from some random person over the internet who doesn't even know your name
funny enough,
the u-boat captains were voluntarily defended by members of the united states navy who testified that the "crimes" the germans were being accused of were also committed by members of the united states navy and basically dared the court to put members of the united states navy on trial for "war-crimes"
this type of legal symmetry
would hold members of the "establishment media" as well as government officials responsible for harm spread by their "dangerous lies"
like, the now proven-false claims of iraq's "weapons of mass destruction" and iraq's "involvement in 911" both resulted in massive loss of life for americans and their allies as well as COUNTLESS iraqi civilians and military recruits who were justly and quite obviously simply trying to defend their homes from an illegal invasion
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@Lemming
Might be you have a different point though?
alex jones isn't responsible for the actions of their listeners
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@Ehyeh
therefore god experiments with them all infinitely
this god has no set goal and therefore no will
or doesn't know what they are doing
I also like to think of time as not linear, but existing all at once,
which makes "free-will" little more than a joke
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@Ehyeh
Well, I would say what is the "best" move is rather subjective.
not if you know for certain what the outcome is and your goal is winning the game (or manifesting an optimal conclusion)
Maybe moral arguments such as that work against a Christian or Abrahamic god. Not so much as other hypothetical conceptions. I, for instance, don't believe in good or bad, in the common sense most people seem to. I don't put prescriptions on what God creates as necessarily "better". Its certainly not hypocritical to imagine he does either. What he creates as the best may change infinitely.
how is god a "he" ?
also, if god has no preference for outcomes, at what point does this god have a "will" ?
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@Lemming
have you ever seen the movie "the fisher king" ?
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@Lemming
But surely there comes a point 'eventually where a falsehood or incitement is clear cut?
nope,
if i post images of animals being tortured in factory farms with corporate logos in the background (like tyson foods)
and then somebody sabotages or boycotts tyson foods
they are not going to be happy with me
and might argue that i "incited violence" or "financial harm" on their business
or if i speak out about a particular belief system or ideology
and some people decide to take some criminal action in response
again, i could easily be "considered responsible"
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@Ehyeh
I hope i haven't missed your reasoning as to why God does not have free will. Can you give me your perspective on why you think he couldn't? I probably wouldn't disagree with you on him only being capable of acting on his nature. I would just argue that his nature is infinite by necessity and therefore he has infinite options within his nature. From this free will is performativity and intellectually preserved.
let's take the example of the typical Omniscient Omnipotent Creator (OOC)
this OOC knows exactly what will happen (IFF) they create something
they also know (IFF) they will create something
so their "choice" is constrained by their knowledge of how it will inevitably evolve
this OOC, for example, would know before they even created the earth
that placing adam and eve in a garden and telling them "not to eat of the tree"
will inevitably end up with them eating from the tree
it's like a chess grandmaster
they are constrained by the rules of the game and by their knowledge of what is the "best move"
they can only make "the best move"
they have no "choice"
i once heard a creation myth, i think it was egyptian
where once the creator god recognized itself, it found itself alone in the cosmic void
and then had a stomach-ache
and threw-up
and what came out, was the universe
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@Ehyeh
here we go,
even god cannot have "free-will"
it is logically impossible
even god cannot "freely choose"
but instead, must inevitably act "according to its nature"
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@Lemming
Take Alex Jones, convinced or goaded people into thinking the school shooting was a false flag, inflammatory,Led to the parents of dead kids being allegedly harassed, and a dead kid's grave literally pissed on, allegedly.
if individuals have violated laws
then let the legal system handle it
i see paid ads on youtube all the time
that are obvious scams (like fuel-efficiency enhancers and micro air-conditioners and "indestructible" drones)
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@K_Michael
Where are you guys seeing whether these people have voting privileges or not?
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