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@Ehyeh
but as you said that doesn't make it anymore real.
depending on your personally preferred definition of "real" of course
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@Ramshutu
The only real basis we have of talking about things is through relationships in what we observe.
intersubjectivity
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@Ehyeh
Once more, how do you know you even have shoes, how do you know its not a simulation?
it doesn't matter if the phenomenal world is "a simulation" or not
science can still identify reproducible effects
otherwise, we wouldn't be able to engineer machines
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@Ehyeh
Phaedo. Its in my first post. Descartes? Hume? pretty much every philosopher critiques the validity of empiricism. Its even in the republic, the allegory of the cave.
none of these claim "empiricism is unreliable"
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@Shila
but they refuse to believe God can save lives.
which god update are you currently on ?
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@Ehyeh
philosophy has proven empiricism unreliable since Socrates.
citation please
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@Ehyeh
philosophy has proven empiricism unreliable since Socrates. We're back to square one. In the end you could not even prove you can tie your own shoelaces.
how do you think the computer you're typing on was created ?
empirical demonstration is not a comprehensive philosophy
but it is extremely practical
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@Ehyeh
I don't know. Just like you dont know when you tie your shoelaces you're actually tying them within noumenon and not just phenomena. Can you show me how you can know you actually tie your shoelaces beyond simple imagination?
empirical verification
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@Ehyeh
"functionally indistinguishable from imaginary"You dont know that.
please explain how your (as of yet unspecified) god is distinguishable from imaginary
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@Ehyeh
3. God created it (either from nothing or himself).
clearly
(IFF) only god existed and only god created all things (THEN) all things are, by necessity, pieces of god
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@whiteflame
No one is arguing that a mother can abandon her child after it is born into the world alive.
apparently, at least in canada, she has about 12 months to decide if she wants to kill it
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@Bones
that men ought to al have the right to abandon the child and not pay child support?
nobody should be able to compel another to serve them
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@Ehyeh
You're clearly not an agnostic atheist to have the hubris to say God is "imaginary" (which you cant prove).
functionally indistinguishable from imaginary
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@Polytheist-Witch
You don't mention Zeus because you don't give a s*** about Zeus or any other tradition that isn't Christian. That's all atheists care about are Christians. Their goal is to go after the biggest group of theists first and then eventually they'll work their way down till there's none left. Fact is none of you care about any of this s*** your spouting off about all you care about is that theists figure out gods don't exist and they f****** forget about them so you don't have to be around theists anymore.
everyone is perfectly free to believe whatever they wish
flat-earth, bigfoot, spacealiens, lochnessmonsters, fantastic, have fun with that
but when people start making laws based on what they think their god wants
that's a reasonable place to draw-the-line
i mean
at the very least
we should make sure we're all following the right god(s)
and not one of those false ones
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@Ehyeh
Atheism: "simply a lack of belief"
that sounds about right, more specifically though, "NOT A THEIST"
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@Ehyeh
There's very strong scientific and philosophical arguments to the existence (or necessity) of god.
i'd love to hear one of those "very strong scientific and philosophical arguments to the existence (or necessity) of god" if you can maybe link to it or something
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@Polytheist-Witch
You know God damn good and well that gods are a certain genders, not sex, through all traditions both male and female and some are considered gender fluid or even binary don't act like Christians are the only ones that fucking do it.
and that's why i didn't mention ZEUS
who looks like a man
and bears children with human women
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@Ehyeh
Yeah though that doesn't make god any less essential for many humans, just like a parent is essential for a child.
a god is like an imaginary parent
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@Public-Choice
For instance, black people make up more than 50% of all exonerated persons. 54.21% to be more exact.
good point
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@Ehyeh
Most animist religions believed in a spirit world, demons, ghosts etc.
but these are generally associated with geographic boundaries that indicate clear jurisdictions
notably absent is the idea of a "military style commander of all things" as well as some sort of "universal personification of evil"
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@Ehyeh
and it still seems like god infiltrates into these degrees of necessity.
please explain
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@Ehyeh
The idea of God still appeals to our survival instincts in the same sense a piece of bread does,
the idea of a god appeals to us in the same way the idea of a parent appeals to a child
notice that the statues of gods, like the greek and roman gods, were often portrayed so that an adult human would look like a child standing next to them
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@Ehyeh
Is social interaction required for human survival? in certain scenarios it is, others i don't think so.
food, clothing, and shelter are easier to obtain in social groups
also, reproduction is required for the survival of the human species
and social groups certainly make this requirement easier to obtain
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@Ehyeh
What happens when we fulfill those needs? it turns out humans now have more needs which need to be fulfilled and if they're not you wont be happy (such as the need for entertainment and social interaction). God can easily fall under this category and in a sense falls under the category for survival itself (if this god implies an afterlife).
our best data indicates that pre-agrarian humans believed in animism
a "commander" "king" "lord" only emerged after agrarian societies became established
this would indicate that the currently dominant "lawmaker" style god is not "required for human survival"
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@Ehyeh
Its also true they did say god is not a man, so i would assume its not a contradiction but simply a metaphor for relateability.
they do tend to get rather agitated when you refer to god as an "it"
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@Ehyeh
Which empirical beliefs are necessary for day to day functioning?
those related to food, clothing, and shelter
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@Ehyeh
I'm not too sure, im not a Christian. There could be many reasons why, it could simply be relateability to common people, etc.
don't you have to have a "Y" chromosome in order to be considered "male" ?
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@Elliott
I don’t necessarily agree with the solipsism hypothesis but as far as I know there isn’t an argument to refute it.
right,
i'm simply pointing out that EITHER WAY
the solipsism hypothesis does NOT dismantle the concept of science
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@Elliott
I agree, but if you take the solipsistic view the only thing you can prove is your own existence.
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@Elliott
If there is no evidence for something I would take that it evidence for absence but not proof of absence, but then if you take the solipsistic argument nothing is certain, you can’t even prove the sun exists. As I said it is an argument killer.
there is a significant amount of quantifiable empirical evidence for "the sun"
there is significantly less quantifiable empirical evidence for "the god" (or "the bigfoot" or "the space aliens" or "the lochness monster")
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@Ehyeh
That's not really true at all. Christian religions say God is completely unconceptualizable, he cant be put into boxes not does he have characteristic or sin like humans. Just because God is "person" doesn't mean he's one like a man or human.
why do the christians insist on calling their god a "him" or a "he" ?
why do the christians refer to "god's will" as if their version of god doesn't already know exactly how every event will play out ?
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@Ehyeh
I feel like God is far more likely to exist than not.
which god are you specifically talking about ?
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@Ehyeh
Why is a pantheist conception of god non-theist?
Theism or metaphysical personocracy (especially in cosmocentric theism in which God is the origin of cosmogony) is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of a supreme being or deities. [**]
notice the key words "SUPREME" AND "BEING"
theism projects a human personality onto the idea of god
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@Ehyeh
Why is a pantheist conception of god non-theist?
pan·the·ism | \ ˈpan(t)-thē-ˌi-zəm \
Definition of pantheism
1: a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe
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@Ehyeh
It seems to me that atheists are hypocrites (atheists in the form of those who say there is no god). I want to write this post to see where (and if) my logic has gone astray. If we go into meditation and assume nothing (as Descartes did), I'm unsure how you can outright decide God cannot exist. As it would appear, there's not very much we can be certain of! It is evident our senses are untrustworthy (as shown by Socrates in Phaedo). To be sure of naturalism, physicalism, materialism, etc, you must first assume your senses to a pretty high degree to be correct. Yet there's really not a very philosophical reason to believe this outside of pragmatism. If the things we see cannot be proven to be mind-independent or real, Why are people so quick to assume God is a logical absurdity? It appears to me almost everything in this world (currently) requires some element of faith, this element of reality is exemplified by the problem of induction. Prove me wrong.
spinoza's god is impossible to deny
however, spinoza's god is NOT a theistic god
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@Polytheist-Witch
Bull shit. You only say it like that so you can harass theists. Atheists do not believe any gods exist. You can change the wording all you want that is a true statement.
NOUMENON = GOD
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@Ehyeh
Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
exactly
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@Ehyeh
that's literally what agnostic means too.
actually, an agnostic is someone who believes it is IMPOSSIBLE to know god
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@Ehyeh
If someone is an atheist, they evidently must believe all gods cant be real.
this is incorrect
an atheist is simply "not a theist"
in the same way
apolitical is simply "not political"
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@Ehyeh
I'm unsure how you can outright decide God cannot exist
which specific god are you considering ?
what is your personally preferred definition of god ?
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@oromagi
registered voters could show up in person at some point, any point really, to present their credentials and be randomly assigned one of the official e20 tokens from their local election authorityand at that point they could vote from anywhere on the planet with their unique code and also verify their vote online
- OK, but you'd have to agree that kill the number one advantage of mail-in voting, right?
- How would overseas and US Military work. Would you run servers on foreign networks?
hold on,
are you saying that mail-in-voters NEVER verify their identity ?
and if you're even slightly concerned about running "servers" on a "foreign network" you clearly don't understand the key advantage of blockchain
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@oromagi
all of these "frightening scenarios" apply equally to the current "mail-n-ballot" systemwell that's false. In our present, less auditable, system Milo could offer his $20 but college voters could still vote for Bernie and claim they voted for Trump. The wife could still vote for Elizabeth Warren but lie about voting for Trump to her abusive husband
how exactly would any of this be made "worse" with blockchain voting ?
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@ebuc
Electronic or any system of voting requires diligent oversight to protect integrity of vote.
the difference between "electronic voting" and "blockchain voting" is the difference between night and day
"electronic voting" is opaque and unauditable
"blockchain voting" is transparent and auditable
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@oromagi
- How would overseas and US Military work. Would you run servers on foreign networks?
do you think that maybe there might be someone on a military base or an embassy that might be able to conduct an IN-PERSON identification ?
the tokens are created and controlled by the local election officials
they can be assigned to individual voters if they are satisfied with an IN-PERSON identity verification
the records of exactly which token is assigned to which specific (remote) voter can be kept on PAPER-ONLY
no electronic records connecting a specific (remote) voter with a specific token would be allowed
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@oromagi
invited by the consensus of existing members
that's the very definition of institutional inertia
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Monero was launched in 2014
i was waiting to bring this up
since most voters already register as "democrat" or "republican" or "independent"
THE STATE OFFICIALS ALREADY KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU LIVE AND HOW YOU WILL VOTE
and they routinely share this information with private companies
so, it's not exactly considered "top-secret"
just think about it,
how could voting districts be so effectively GERRYMANDERED without this information ?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
but a properly designed system would allow them to check.
why is this so difficult for people to understand ?
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@oromagi
One of the main reasons for the upgrade is scalability. The current Ethereum network can only support around 30 transactions per second; this causes delays and congestion. Ethereum 2.0 promises up to 100,000 transactions per second. This increase will be achieved through the implementation of shard chains.Sounds good. The cost would fall heaviest on rural voters but such infrastructural improvement usually end up paying for themselves.
we're talking about simple text
voting does not require high-speed-internet
if you have a regular telephone line or a cell phone, you can send the amount of data required to vote
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@oromagi
how are they going to fake the receipt that the voter takes home ?I'm thinking less about fake receipts then anonymity. If you have a list of voters who showed ids in the order they voted and then you have the anonymous votes in order, you can crack anonymity.
the names of the voters who are verified IN-PERSON BY ELECTION OFFICIALS is NOT online and is NOT on the blockchain
the IN-PERSON verification is EXACTLY THE SAME as the current IN-PERSON verification already used at polling places
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I do not care if Alex Jones or Albert Einstein said the 2 + 2 = 5. It doesn't, and I can prove it so I don't need to rely on authority.
well stated
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