3RU7AL's avatar

3RU7AL

A member since

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Total posts: 14,582

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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
I've been outside in snow storms as have everyone I know, we are all still alive.
For example, even though hypothermia can set in when temperatures are as high as 50 degrees Fahrenheit, many cities don’t open the doors to their winter shelters until temperatures hit freezing or below. In Des Moines, as the National Coalition for the Homeless pointed out, temperatures have to drop all the way to 20 degrees, and in Baltimore it needs to hit 13 degrees with wind chill before winter shelter procedures are put in effect.

so, there is no moral obligation to prevent human suffering and hypothermia

only a moral obligation to prevent nearly certain death

got it
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Yes I do have a personal responsibility.
what are you personally going to do to stop me seeking an abortion ?
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@oromagi
Many arguments on this site treat either claim as the end of their burden and the thinking stop right there.
why would anyone be obligated to refute an incomplete claim ?
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Something that I don't understand
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@Dr.Franklin
it was simplified
CARTOONISHLY OVERSIMPLIFIED
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@oromagi
Since fallacious arguments can still be true,
sure, but they can't be ASSUMED TO BE TRUE without sound logical support
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@oromagi
Every good argument is built on very specific meanings of every term found in the thesis.
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
and could dive in and save him, then I do have have a moral obligation to save this person.
how is this materially different from the snow-storm example ?
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
"the fetus inside me is a stranger to you"

But their death IS almost guaranteed if I don't save them from abortion.
so, is the fetus inside me "guaranteed to die" or not ?

and furthermore,

do you personally have some responsibility (moral or otherwise) to "save" it (i mean, you know, more than the stranger in a snow-storm with a hundred other doors to knock on)
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
78% of Women Considering an Abortion Choose Life When They See an Ultrasound.

so, not exactly "guaranteed to die"
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
I don't have a personal responsibility to a stranger if their death isn't almost guaranteed if I don't save them.
the fetus inside me is a stranger to you
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
someone else could potentially save them
you can apply this caveat to almost any neglect of personal-responsibility
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Abortion, if it is done properly, GUARANTEES the death of the unborn child.
by your own previous examples, this is not a guarantee of death

Estimated US National Average: Annual Born Alive Survivors of Abortion: 431.
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Also, the difference with doctors is they have a *responsibility* to take care of a patient, it is their job.
the exact same PRINCIPLES apply to driving past a person dying of thirst in the desert

or not opening your door for the stranger caught in a snow-storm

or deporting immigrants back into an active war-zone
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
I am not justifying anything with ad populum reasoning that is a straw-man. I am saying the claim I made was self-evident and the complete lack of controversy reflects that.
you seem to be ignoring the fact that anyone at all, even myself could very easily claim some (otherwise indefensible) position is "self-evident"

the fact that you even mention the popularity of the position you claim is "self-evident" is the very definition of an argumentum ad populum (otherwise it is clearly a non-sequitur and or red-herring)

being "uncontroversial" (popular) and being "self-evident" are in no way intrinsically related
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
significantly controversial
what exactly are you suggesting ?

are you suggesting that some other point SHOULD be the "cut-off" instead of "viability" ?

even though, by your own standard, ANY OTHER "cut-off" point would be MORE "significantly controversial" ?
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Something that I don't understand
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@Dr.Franklin
But I thought libertarians believe you can do whatever you want.
STRAW-MAN
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
That still shows controversy, what about that 28%?
are you suggesting that we should only pass laws that 100% of citizens agree with ?
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Refer me to anybody, law maker, social warrior, ANYBODY who feels not donating a liver to someone to save their life should receive decades/ life in prison or the death penalty like pushing someone into a wood chipper would.
once again, you are relying on an argumentum ad populum

The moral distinction (or lack of distinction) between killing a person and letting a person die is an important part of the debate over the legalization of euthanasia.

This distinction between killing and letting die gets at a common way that people often think about the issue of euthanasia.

The line of thinking goes roughly like this: “killing a person is morally worse than letting a person die, therefore doctors should be allowed to cease treatment of a patient and ‘let them die’ but should not be able to act upon the patient to cause their death, or ‘kill them’”.

I will argue that this way of thinking is flawed as it is based on the premise that killing a person is morally worse than letting a person die.

I will discuss killing and letting die here, but more importantly I will attempt to decide if the lack of distinction is relevant to the morality of euthanasia at all.

If it is not, I will try to find out what is the morally relevant factor we should be judging.
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Viability being relevant IS controversial and not a social norm.
The Harvard Center for American Political Studies/Harris Poll’s June 2022 national survey of registered voters shows 72% backed abortion no later than 15 weeks.

for scale,

74% of women (and only 63% of men) enjoy consuming ice cream year-round.
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
This is uncontroversial as it is self-evident.
no, no it is not
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Certain claims are self-evident and don't require justification. 
why are you on a debate site then ?
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
I used them to show how uncontroversial and self-evident the claim I was making was.
that's what justification is
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
The Georgia Public Service Commission regulates the state's public utilities like Georgia Power.

According to GPSC spokesman Tom Krause, those companies can't cut off service to a customer for an unpaid bill between November 15 and March 15 if "the forecast local low temperature for a 24-hour period beginning at 8 a.m. on the date of the proposed disconnection is below 32," according to regulations. [**]

but i suspect the penalty for violating this rule is negligible 
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Do u change your mind much from debating?
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@n8nrgim
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Bodily Autonomy
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@Bones
Obviously yes, because you are responsible for the child being there. Much the same is for the case of abortion. 
ok, so nobody has a "right to life" unless you're a blood relation ?

also,

who exactly is going to bring a criminal case against you if you live 100 miles from your nearest neighbor ?

also,

Infanticide is also a defense to murder, in that a person accused of murder who successfully presents the defense is entitled to be convicted of infanticide rather than murder. The maximum sentence for infanticide is five years' imprisonment; by contrast, the maximum sentence for manslaughter is life, and the mandatory sentence for murder is life.

so, apparently,

infanticide != murder
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Why would viability be relevant to the moral right of an innocent human to not be killed? I fail to see how viability has any relevance.
you're the one who used "social norms" to justify the moral position of "not donating a kidney"

according to "social norms" fetal viability is a reasonable point at which to prohibit abortion
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Bodily Autonomy
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@Danielle
Democrats should not be compromising on that at all. 
perhaps a stop-gap measure is better than zero action
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Bodily Autonomy
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@Bones
The only relavant facet of my moral ontology is the notion that, prima facie, a human beings right to life is superior to one's liberty.
so, why do you only believe a person is morally obligated to provide shelter for another human in a snow-storm

if there are no other homes nearby ?

at what point does the number of nearby homes mitigate "a human beings right to life" ?
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The Interaction problem and Dualism
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@ebuc
do your "three parts" interact with each other ?
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Something that I don't understand
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@TheUnderdog
Maybe, but to liberate is not to force people to get vaccinated.
exactly
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Bodily Autonomy
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@Bones
Instead of reading off your script and bread trailing, could you just tell me what conclusion you are trying to get at? 
i'm attempting to decipher your moral framework
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Viability is irrelevant.
BUT WHY ?

when discussing the difference between "letting someone die" and "killing someone" you used "the law" and "social norms" to justify the MORAL difference

both "the law" and "social norms" support viability as a reasonable cut-off

what OTHER source (not legal and not social) are you using to carve out this specific exception for abortion = murder ?
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@bmdrocks21
suggesting that someone is evil for believing something rather than critiquing their beliefs.
basically, AD HOMINEM ATTACK
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@Greyparrot
It's nice to know only a small minority of Americans care about the partisan theatre and have finally told politicians to kindly fuck off when they patronizingly tell voters what they are SUPPOSSED to care about.
funny you're still focused on it yourself
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
I am not a legalist in totality, although, as I said, there is a correlation when it comes to the most severe moral atrocities. Also, I thought it was common sense that not donating your liver to save someone is far less of a moral atrocity then pushing someone into a wood chipper. However, if you wish to shift the debate to moral realism vs moral relativism then that's a rabbit hole I would rather not go down. It has been fun however. 
well,

if you take a legalist stance, there is no reason to change the law to "outlaw abortion" because LEGALLY abortion is not considered a federal crime

if you take, as you said, a "society view", then perhaps there may be some justification for outlawing abortion AFTER VIABILITY

but in neither case is ABORTION equal to MURDER (which is what you seemed to be suggesting the entire time)
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
What evidence? The fact that killing an innocent human carries with it a sentence of multiple years in prison, if not life, or even the death penalty and is regarded as one of the worst crimes one can commit.

Such punishment's are not had for not donating your liver; it is not even considered a crime (let alone a bad one).

This shows that us that society view actively killing someone as far worse morally than merely refraining to save someone from death if you can. If this was not the case, we would not have such consequences for the former in comparison to the latter.

There is not always a 1 to 1 comparison, but the law does tightly correlate with morality. This is why stealing and rape are illegal; they are morally repulsive (just like murder), while failing to donate organs even though people need them to live is not illegal.
ah,

notice how your first impulse is to cite legal precedent - are you now a legalist ?

notice how your second impulse is to cite "social norms" - are you now a moral relativist ?
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Do u change your mind much from debating?
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@n8nrgim
It looks like no one changes their mind much.  I the think it's rare, but I also suspect folks just don't vocalize much when they r swayed.

I change my mind more than I do a good job expressing
i've noticed that for myself, sometimes it takes a few years for me to adopt an idea i initially laughed at
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@Greyparrot
And Tim Pool, who is no Trump lover lol!.
exactly
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@Danielle
These people justify Trump's behavior and the security + political threats he created based on the fact that he is delusional and willfully rejects all the facts presented to him by everyone around him.
any system of justice that relies on divining "motive" is indistinguishable from witchcraft
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Thought Terminating Cliches
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@Double_R
and I'm also interested to see if anyone can think of examples of this on the left.
it's called "a rush to disqualify" (which is a type of ad hominem attack)

and "the left" does it all the time

for example, they casually and matter-of-factly dismiss joe rogan, russell brand, and jimmy dore as "right-wingers" and or "alt-right" and or "trump supporters" even though they all lean very sharply left of bernie sanders
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
Morally it is worse to take an action that kills someone (like pushing someone into a woodchipper) than it is to merely refrain from taking an action that saves them (like refusing to donate a liver).
what evidence do you have to support this claim ?
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
There is no way to practically regulate killing the unborn by self-induced abortion.
a number of women have been prosecuted in the United States for self-inducing abortion under a variety of state statutes, ranging from fetal homicide to failure to report an abortion to the coroner. Recently, the issue has gained greater attention because of several well-publicized cases in which women were prosecuted—and even imprisoned—for self-inducing an abortion or being suspected of doing so.

Despite claims from antiabortion advocates and lawmakers that abortion restrictions are intended to only criminalize providers of abortion care, some prosecutors have exercised their discretion under current state laws to penalize women who end their pregnancies on their own. Moreover, these laws are even being used to pursue women who are merely suspected of having self-induced an abortion, but in fact had suffered miscarriages. [**]
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Bodily Autonomy
For instance, you didn't defend your pig point the moment I called you out on it.
you didn't present an actual argument

try presenting an actual argument
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
The path to a result matters when determining criminality. 
the end result is the same for the person who dies

we're speaking about morality and not just criminality
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
"they are indistinguishable without MANDATORY "tests and scans" (for all miscarriages, including unreported miscarriages) AND some investigation to determine MOTIVE"
That makes no sense, if it is unreported how could anyone know about it? 
pregnancy is detectable from urine sampling

the sewage systems could be monitored to alert authorities of unreported pregnancies (as well as unauthorized drug use)
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Bodily Autonomy
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@DebateAllDaTings
***I asked you to respond with one comment and one comment only, so please do that it is getting annoying***
this is a purely voluntary interaction

respond to what you wish to respond to and don't respond to what you don't wish to respond to
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Bodily Autonomy
In other words, there is a lot of logic to my own morality but the foundation is as simple as feelings and subjective empathy.
great answer

how do you propose we moderate conflicts (and shape policy) when two or more people disagree about how they personally feel about a particular situation ?
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Bodily Autonomy
Unless you are suggesting we legally mandate veganism,
please present your logically-coherent moral framework
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Bodily Autonomy
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@Greyparrot
Why do you think Schumer felt the need to say he wouldn't compromise on the bill even though that ensured it would not pass?
BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY INTERESTED IN FIXING ANYTHING

they're only interested in trying to look like they're trying to fix something

for example, the democrats are contributing millions of dollars to far-right republicans (not a joke)
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Bodily Autonomy
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@FLRW
The genetic DNA similarity between pigs and human beings is 98%. Interspecies organ transplant activities between humans and pigs have even taken place, called xenotransplants. Should we really be killing baby pigs?
killing adult pigs is a-ok, because, obviously, THEY DESERVE IT
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