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@ebuc
What thing do you keep refering to
NOUMENON
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@ebuc
your categories are aspects of the ONE THING
all things that are detectable and can interact in any way are aspects of the ONE THING
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@FLRW
The genetic DNA similarity between pigs and human beings is 98%. Interspecies organ transplant activities between humans and pigs have even taken place, called xenotransplants. Should we really be killing baby pigs?
killing a baby pig is 98% MURDER
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@DebateAllDaTings
There is a difference between not feeding you, and slicing your throat.
not really any MATERIAL difference if both result in THE DEATH OF A PRECIOUS HUMAN LIFE
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@DebateAllDaTings
"an induced miscarriage (home abortion) and a "natural" miscarriage are indistinguishable without an autopsy and a police investigation"They are not indistinguishable at all, simple blood tests and scans can determine the cause of the miscarriage.
they are indistinguishable without MANDATORY "tests and scans" (for all miscarriages, including unreported miscarriages) AND some investigation to determine MOTIVE
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@ebuc
All that exists falls into one or more of these three cosmic catagories.
all things that are detectable and can interact in any way are aspects of the ONE THING
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@Danielle
fail to pass a bill that prohibits states from interfering with a woman's right to travel to obtain an abortion
this is the same issue as trying to prevent people from traveling to obtain an interracial marriage
it's a very simple matter of JURISDICTION
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@Danielle
This thread took a turn lol
it's funny how a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to self-ownership relates to EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF LAW
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@Bones
Yup if there were a different house the person could go to, then the obligation is lessened. However, if the person is dependent i.e they have serious cognitive dissonance, it would be immoral to force him to the other house where he will inevitably die.
so, basically, if there were 100 houses, everyone could refuse and nobody would be responsible
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@DebateAllDaTings
Someone's property being used and the inconvenience that comes with that is a small price to pay for not taking a human life.
so, do you agree that we should provide food and shelter and medical care for all homeless people ?
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@Bones
If I were in the mountains and there was a blizzard and I am the only one who owns a house within 10 miles and you come straggling to my door, yes I would say that I ought allow you to come in.
would it make a difference if there were two houses ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
I believe weaponizing rights is exactly what you are doing. After all, the right to not be killed is the most basic right a human can have...
what if, the unborn child was not directly damaged, and instead, the umbilical cord was clamped
the umbilical cord is part of the mother's body
and the nutrients flowing through that cord are owned by the mother
it would be like refusing to feed a guest that has overstayed their welcome
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@DebateAllDaTings
Also, miscarriage isn’t abortion so mentioning Franklin seems confusing.
an induced miscarriage (home abortion) and a "natural" miscarriage are indistinguishable without an autopsy and a police investigation
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@DebateAllDaTings
Give an example of an "intentional miscarriage".
Benjamin Franklin gave instructions on at-home abortions in a book in the 1700s
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@DebateAllDaTings
It would be impossible to practically regulate such things.
not impossible
for example, google can predict if someone may be pregnant and searching for information to induce a miscarriage
this would constitute premeditated murder and they could be legally obligated to report this to the police
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@DebateAllDaTings
If there was any gross negligence then it could easily be determined.
"easily determined" with a battery of mandatory tests ?
how do you propose we prosecute the murderers who don't report their pregnancy and then intentionally miscarry ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
Intent matters.
even better
how do you propose we distinguish an "intentional" miscarriage from an "unintentional" miscarriage ?
i'm pretty certain a simple autopsy won't solve this
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@DebateAllDaTings
I doubt it would be hard not to notice that was the reason for miscarriage.
would you require an autopsy for every miscarriage ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
Not saving someone is not the same as actively killing them.There's a huge difference between not donating to save someone, and pushing them in a woodchipper.
it's not such a "huge difference" if the end result is death
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@DebateAllDaTings
Miscarriage isn't a choice so it isn't murder or manslaughter, it is an accident that is not due to any negligence of the mother so there should be no penalty.
i mean, we are talking about A HUMAN LIFE here, you can't just say "whoopsie!!"
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@DebateAllDaTings
Miscarriage isn't a choice so it isn't murder or manslaughter, it is an accident that is not due to any negligence of the mother so there should be no penalty.
many miscarriages are preventable with proper diet and bed-rest
how do you propose the state distinguish between a "natural" miscarriage and a miscarriage due to negligence (and or an intentionally induced miscarriage) ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
what if someone knocks on your door in the middle of a snow-storm
is refusing them shelter tantamount to "murder" ?
it's a simple "yes" or "no" question, separate from the "metaphor"
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@DebateAllDaTings
I agree that we own ourselves, but that is only if our choices with our body don't significantly put others at risk, harm or kill another innocent person.
ok, let's say we all agree
abortion = murder
how do you propose we distinguish miscarriage from murder or manslaughter ?
how do you propose the state be informed of all pregnancies ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
I am talking about a life starting their existence in the place in question.
what if someone knocks on your door in the middle of a snow-storm
is refusing them shelter tantamount to "murder" ?
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@bmdrocks21
The entity at fault is the one that created the waste: the company.
that company does not exist unless they receive contributions from customers
sure,
you might not be "legally responsible"
but couldn't you conceivably be "morally responsible"
maybe
just a tiny bit ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
If a man popped into my house right now, and would die for some reason [LIKE A SNOW-STORM FOR EXAMPLE] if he left my house, I would have a moral obligation to not push him out of my house as that is murder as it is killing him.
message to the homeless and destitute
break into people's homes when there is a snow-storm
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@bmdrocks21
do i owe you food and shelter if you're caught in a snow storm ?If you used mystical powers to create the snow storm, I’d say yes
if you support the production of industrial waste by purchasing products
are you responsible for the harm (to humans) caused by that industrial waste ?
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@SkepticalOne
If I rely on your organs for my survival, I exist solely by your willingness to allow me to use them. I have no claim to your body, while you do have claim to your own organs regardless of my needs or wants.
exactly
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@Polytheist-Witch
I would gladly kill an intruder into my home and law says it's fine.
bingo
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@DebateAllDaTings
Also, it is not just about disallowing occupancy as the child must first be killed inside the womb before the child comes out.
ECTOGENESIS FTW
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@DebateAllDaTings
So you believe your home being remodelled is justification for killing someone? I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
the house in the metaphor
is your own body
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@DebateAllDaTings
If they would get butchered and die in the streets if they weren't in a home (like the unborn would die outside the womb if they weren't in the womb) then yes.
i'm not sure why it matters HOW they die (butchered or not butchered is still dead as dead) but good
let's focus on helping the homeless, and then after we solve that, then we can move on to invading the medical privacy of pregnant women
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@TheMorningsStar
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@DebateAllDaTings
The mother having dominion over her body does not entail dominion
it's the baby that "has dominion" over the mother's body in your preferred scenario
the baby is forcing the mother to feed and shelter it
imagine if someone spliced their veins into the plumbing of your house and then you were told that you were not legally allowed to evict (deport) the "guest" because "that would kill them"
meanwhile, the "guest" is remodeling your house in ways that you don't personally approve
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@DebateAllDaTings
Also the nutrients being lost are not that much.
do you happen to be in support of providing free food and shelter and medical care to the homeless ?
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@DebateAllDaTings
The problem is deporting people doesn't entail killing them like in abortion, so your example fails.
deporting people often forces them into dangerous situations (from which they were obviously fleeing in the first place) and can even lead to their death
but those deaths are of no concern to the deporting nation
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@oromagi
i vote "NO"
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@DebateAllDaTings
This is why bodily autonomy actually supports the pro-life position, as the bodily autonomy of the unborn is being violated during an abortion.
all laws are based on jurisdiction
the united states cannot make laws for china
russia cannot make laws for ghana
if there is a human living inside the borders of a sovereign country
that human is subject to the laws and or whims of that PARTICULAR country's ruler
the same principle applies for the borders of a sovereign individual
what happens inside YOUR OWN BODY is your business and only your business
if there is a human living inside your borders and you wish to deport them
then you and only you have the right to deport them
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@DebateAllDaTings
If I’m about to shoot a child and you swat my arm without my consent to touch me, you have violated my bodily autonomy as you touched my body without my permission. Also, who are you to tell me I can't pull the trigger, isn't my finger, can't I do what I want with my own finger on my own body?
think of individual sovereignty in the same way you think of national sovereignty
you might not like that saudi arabia beheads people on charges of practicing witchcraft
but do you disagree strongly enough to invade their country and revamp their justice system ?
in your example, sure, there may be some legal penalty for assaulting someone who you believe may intend gross bodily harm to another
if you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, then assault as you see fit
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@SkepticalOne
all rights stand upon: self-ownership
even better
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Calling it 'democracy' to not have a pluralistic vote or proportional representation in this day and age is an absolute joke.
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@DebateAllDaTings
Bodily autonomy is used as a justification for killing,
think of it in the same terms as "deportation"
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@SkepticalOne
A right to bodily autonomy would be pointless is it were codified that a woman has unconditional ownership of her fetus.Sounds like a good reason not to codify fetal slavery. I'm pretty sure people who argue a fetus is part of the woman's body (of which I'm not one) have no interest in such extreme 'solutions'.
let's simply codify MEDICAL PRIVACY
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@SkepticalOne
maternal endangerment?
abortion is 14 times safer than live birth
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@Bones
Assuming personhood, the fetus still wouldn't have a right to use the body of another without consent.The liberty of a mother does not trump a beings right to life.
do i owe you food and shelter if you're caught in a snow storm ?
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@oromagi
Jan 6th was an anti-American tyrant's incompetent coup.
wow
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@Greyparrot
Nope. I did the research on the actual violations of his parole. It's not in your wiki source though.
if his parole was actually violated, then he would be sentenced
this did not happen
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@Greyparrot
...May 29th, 2020 riots...
what makes you think i disagree with you on this point ?
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@Greyparrot
A person being held on parole violations is not unfair.
he was NOT "being held on parole violations"
he was denied bail for a POTENTIAL "parole violation" (iff convicted, which he was NOT by the way)
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