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3RU7AL

A member since

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Total posts: 14,582

Posted in:
Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
Why do/would embryo exist in such quantity?
in-vitro fertilization
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
Why not explain to Pro Lifer's why Roe v. Wade is not against their beliefs then?
the pro-lifers are not the one's trying to overturn roe v. wade
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
Maybe we shouldn't freeze embryos.
well, it's either freeze them or dump them in the trash
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Athias
That's what it means to maintain principle, because principles--namely axioms--which inform any moral arguments express essentially 0th ordered logic.
exactly
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
If it is certain that the embryos 'will grow up into adults,
nothing is certain

the overwhelming majority of frozen embryos are never implanted
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
Why not explain to Pro Lifer's why Roe v. Wade is not against their beliefs then?
Or 'is it against their beliefs in some ways?
the principle here is SELF-OWNERSHIP (AND) MEDICAL PRIVACY

what happens inside a woman's body is ONLY her own business

the fact that women are being charged and convicted of manslaughter for miscarriages is absurd

if you were fleeing a burning building and you had the choice to rescue two newborn infants (OR) 300,000 frozen embryos, which would you choose ?
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
There is middle ground, and I'd be willing to meet there, even though there 'still leaves me uncomfortable,
the status quo under roe v. wade was, "no restrictions on abortion in the first three months, some restrictions in the first six months, and lots of restrictions in the last three months"
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Welfare recipients should not have the right to vote
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@whiteflame
Everyone contributes to society to some degree. For poorer people, that may just mean buying from local businesses, paying rent and working an 8-5 job.
well stated
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
Pro Life doesn't mean 'no abortions at all, given that exceptions have already been remarked upon,
the people currently in positions of power are in the camp of "ABORTION = MURDER"

there is no middle ground here

this actually makes IUD birth control devices = murder machines (since they don't inhibit conception)

i know accusing women who have miscarried of "manslaughter" or "murder" seems absurd

but it is already happening in the united states


Jan 16, 2022 — The Comanche County District Attorney charged Emily Akers, 22, with first-degree manslaughter in March 2020, 10 months after she had
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@imdancin
or especially in Gods eyes.
Exodus 21:22 is, however, a part of the Bible that actually does mention the fetus. “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

This is fascinating because it outlines specific punishments for specific crimes. If a woman is hurt in a struggle and then has a miscarriage, the penalty is a fine, a mere financial payment. But, if there is further harm, likely meaning the woman has long-term and serious injuries or even dies, then the culprit could be killed. In other words, the life and well-being of the woman, the mother, is of much greater significance than those of her unborn child.

also notice the "payment" is determined by and is paid to the father
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
Is this what people want and 'expect of the system in it's ideal form though?
many if not most people think "better safe than sorry" and would rather incarcerate a "few" innocent citizens if that makes them feel more confident that "100%" of criminals are "locked-up"
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Welfare recipients should not have the right to vote
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@CoolApe
All of them that wanted to vote again would send back their stimulus checks. Or simply anyone partaking in welfare currently or during a voting cycle would not have the right to vote. 
AND

stop using public roads

AND

stop calling public police

AND

stop using public utilities and public hospitals and public schools
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Welfare recipients should not have the right to vote
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@CoolApe
Another point, welfare breeds voting slaves to politicians.
except for the fact that poor people are statistically LESS likely to vote
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Welfare recipients should not have the right to vote
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@Benjamin
First off, how can anyone support democracy (rule by the people), and yet be against a large part of the people being allowed to vote? Secondly, I don't see any reason why the poor and welfare recipients are contributing little to society. In reality, most are doing hard work in multiple jobs, but their efforts are rewarded with low pay and next to no job security or benefits. To put it bluntly, hardworking people earn little not because they aren't contributing, but because their wages are determined by greedy capitalists. These syphoon the value of the poor's effort into their own pockets -- and themselves pay even less taxes, proportionally.


I, for my part, support a vision of democracy based on who policy AFFECTS. The state should be responsible to the people affected by state policy, aka, inhabitants.
well stated
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Atheists are cowards.
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@Tradesecret
It's been my experience that Theists love to show up to religious threads.  They get to have their say. They get to destroy their opponents.  They get to prove how cool they are in the world of philosophy.

But this is why I say they are cowards.  Because they are afraid to reveal what they believe.  For instance, what do Theists believe? 

Nothing. One common doctrine. God does exist. An argument based on an unfalsifiable claim. That is it.  Nothing else. We are not allowed to know what else they believe - because there is no common factor. 

Hence why Theists are COWARDS.   They criticize - but without fear of being criticized. That is not criticism. That is safe ground.  Bogus. really. 

Are there more doctrines for the Theist than there is God? No.   nary  a one. LOL! laughable. And weak.  Cowardly really. there is no other words that can account for this state of being. A worldview - that is not really a worldview - a position - that is not really a position - a statement that allows no criticism. Imagine if we tried to apply to that any religion?  It would be laughed out of the stadium.  that is why Theism is cowardly. One rule for them. 

My view is that only people with worldviews should be allowed to contribute in a religious forum.   An Theist ought be rejected unless they can provide a worldview to be considered.  Unless this occurs - then there is no basis of comparing and contrasting. There is no basis for conversation.

Unless an Theist is able to come up with a worldview - then the Theist's opinions ought not be welcome. 

We should not be permitted to criticize others unless we have something alternative to offer. Theists have nothing to offer - of their own admission - so why ought we subject to ANY of their criticisms.  By admitting they have no other doctrines, they admit they use religious doctrines to live their lives.  
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Atheists are cowards.
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@SkepticalOne
I don't find atheists so much into exploring ideas as they are in destroying ideas.
i really don't know any other way of "exploring" an idea if you can't break it apart
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Atheists are cowards.
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@Reece101
What do non-smokers believe? Nothing. This is essentially what you’re arguing. Most atheists just live their lives just as religious people do. 
exactly
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
Also, I'm not sure it's most common policy to arrest people, without having acquired evidence and just reason to believe they are guilty?
many people are held for months, lose their jobs, and then just before the trial date, their charges are dropped
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Bones
On another note, would you rather abort 3 embryos which have reached the blastocyst stage, (approximately five to six days after fertilization) or kill a single child
a better illustration is the question,

if you were in a burning building and could only save (EITHER) two newborn babies (OR) 300,000 frozen embryos 

which would you choose ??
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Lemming
I thought we supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, in this country?
that's a lie

if you are accused of a "serious crime" you are incarcerated

BEFORE your trial
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@imdancin
And what happens if the mother miscarries?
she has to prove she did everything she could to preserve and prioritize the life of the baby
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Danielle
legal rights > moral preferences
what are "legal rights" based on if not moral impulse ?
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Danielle
fundamentally disagree on the role of government
please explain
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@imdancin
And there is no way that you can monitor every pregnancy that occurs in the country.
oh yes there is.

make the purchase of pregnancy tests require an id.

each pregnancy test is issued with a unique serial number.

every purchased pregnancy test must be returned and registered within 30 days.

anyone who returns a positive pregnancy test is issued a "(pre)birth-certificate" and if they don't produce a living child in approximately 9 months

they will be investigated for child endangerment and or criminal negligence and or manslaughter and or murder

problem solved
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@imdancin
I feel for couples that want children and can't have them. But children are not commodities. They should not be used as experiments because people are desperate to have them. They should never be objects. 
thank you for sharing your honest opinion

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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@imdancin
Exodus 21:22 is, however, a part of the Bible that actually does mention the fetus. “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

This is fascinating because it outlines specific punishments for specific crimes. If a woman is hurt in a struggle and then has a miscarriage, the penalty is a fine, a mere financial payment. But, if there is further harm, likely meaning the woman has long-term and serious injuries or even dies, then the culprit could be killed. In other words, the life and well-being of the woman, the mother, is of much greater significance than those of her unborn child.

also notice the "payment" is determined by and is paid to the father
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@thett3
Under Roe, the right to an abortion is guaranteed under the right to privacy. That's also part of the rationale for the Griswold v. Connecticut decision in 1965, which recognized a right to contraception for married people – and eventually, everyone else.
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@Reece101
Under Roe, the right to an abortion is guaranteed under the right to privacy. That's also part of the rationale for the Griswold v. Connecticut decision in 1965, which recognized a right to contraception for married people – and eventually, everyone else.
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@imdancin
Not necessary if there were no abortion mills where women could go to kill their unborns.
also, do you happen to have any strong opinions about in-vitro fertilization ?
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Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.
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@imdancin
Not necessary if there were no abortion mills where women could go to kill their unborns.
Benjamin Franklin wrote a detailed guide on how women can "induce miscarriages" at home

Every Man His Own Doctor: The Poor Planter's Physician.
This medical handbook provided home remedies for a variety of ailments, allowing people to handle their more minor illnesses at home, like a fever or gout. One entry, however, was "for the suppression of the courses", which Farrell discovered meant a missed menstrual period.

"[The book] starts to prescribe basically all of the best-known herbal abortifacients and contraceptives that were circulating at the time," Farrell said. "It's just sort of a greatest hits of what 18th-century herbalists would have given a woman who wanted to end a pregnancy early."

"It's very explicit, very detailed, [and] also very accurate for the time in terms of what was known ... for how to end a pregnancy pretty early on."
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Lemming
i think i understand your impulse for some "reasonable middle-ground"

and that's been the PROBLEM up to this point

we've been writing laws based on "what people can agree on at the moment without thinking too hard about it"

and this creates a SHIFTING LEGAL LANDSCAPE based on whim without every identifying PRINCIPLES
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Lemming
or must be likely to suffer following its birth, with no prospect of improvement
this describes every single person ever born
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@thett3
The bond between parent and child is sacred,
which principle and or specific religious teaching do you base this on ?
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Danielle
Forced pregnancy is far more invasive than anything that has to do with property or the domicile. The constitution recognizes the distinction between violating property vs. person and  considers the latter to be far more significant (i.e. searches of one's person have higher standards than searches of one's property; forcibly inserting yourself into someone's home has a lesser criminal status than forcibly inserting yourself into someone's body, etc.). 

My references to property have only meant to highlight how much we value property and privacy when it comes to government intrusion. The Bill of Rights establishes that the government cannot even force someone to house a person against their will, let alone live inside of their body. If there's a hurricane coming, the government can't force anyone to take in  homeless people to save lives regardless of how immoral  you find it to leave them on the streets.  
perfecto
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Lemming
There's also a sizeable number of Pro Life people, who'd be willing to allow abortions in various situations,
but these are unfortunately NOT the pro-lifers leading the charge (especially regarding new legislation)

So far this year, 22 states have enacted at least 85 pro-life laws, and there are some big jumps on this year’s Life List. Texas jumped eight spots to #12 after enacting chemical abortion protections and the first Heartbeat Law to take effect. Montana flipped its governor’s mansion in 2020 and moved eleven spots up the Life List to #32 by enacting six impactful laws including born-alive protections, chemical abortion reporting and safety laws, and a gestational age limit on abortion based on the baby’s ability to feel pain.

“This is incredible news,” said Jerry Cox, Family Council President. “Arkansans should be proud of their state legislators for enacting the best laws in the nation when it comes to protecting innocent human life. That’s something to celebrate.”

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Restrictions on Abortion
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@Danielle
No, the systems we operate under are not hypothetical. 
are they "fact-based" ?
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@SkepticalOne
The only thing abortion restrictions tend to do is make abortions more unsafe. Is that moral?
does the anti-abortion crowd promote free (or super cheap) birth control and IUDs ?

that and better support for single mothers would very likely reduce abortions (and or "induced miscarriages") MORE than simply making them illegal
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@RationalMadman
If you don't want a law based on morality, our positions are more different than I could begin to reconcile.
unfortunately not everyone agrees on exactly what "morality" is supposed to mean
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transgenders attracted to opposite biological sex- either homo or heterosexual is a fair label
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@zedvictor4
In short.......We think, we want and we can.
i fail to detect "the problem"

perhaps you could try to identify the core issue
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@RationalMadman
If you mean a contract you want out of midway, sorry but that is some tough shit unless you have a good reason for it. Go to court in that case.
many corporate contracts are not strictly "enforceable"

for example parler tried to sue amazon for dropping their hosting without warning

but apparently there was a vaguely worded clause in the contract

that allows amazon to cut service if "any customer does not adequately address concerns regarding content moderation"

which clearly could mean just about anything

and for the record

a landlord can evict any tenant at any time for "lease violation" (many of which are arbitrary, like "complaints from neighbors") without the landlord suffering any penalty - - in-fact the evicted tenant is still legally obligated to pay off any months remaining on their current (now broken) lease agreement
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@SkepticalOne
I'll just point out you're consenting to having your body used without your consent. (That would be consent).
"opt-in default" = "automatic consent"

(no action = consent, opt-out requires action)
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@RationalMadman
Id expect my dad to do so if he wasnt a deadbeat sack of shit and his kidney was viable.
but should they be LEGALLY OBLIGATED ?
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@RationalMadman
The emotions matter, they are how morals are formed.
for some more than others
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@SkepticalOne
The law should not be based on emotionality, but reason.
and demonstrable harm (and demonstrable harm mitigation)
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@RationalMadman
my dead body
this seems like a poor example

do you perhaps have another example that involves living humans ?
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@thett3
“Republicans won enough senate elections to take a majority and exercised that power in a way I found distasteful” is not even close to the same as saying the courts were “packed” or seats were “stolen.” Not holding a hearing for Garland was not “bending the rules” (itself a significant walk back from “stole” or “packed”) although it was a violation of an established norm. 
How McConnell’s Bid to Reshape the Federal Judiciary Extends Beyond the Supreme Court

When President Trump took office, he had more than 100 vacancies to fill in the lower courts, including 17 in the U.S. courts of appeals — all of them lifetime appointments. The Supreme Court hears around 80 cases a year, while the courts of appeals handle tens of thousands of cases annually — often making them the last word in most cases that impact the lives of Americans.
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@SkepticalOne
based on what principle ?
If a woman has no choice but to bear the burden of pregnancy, then it is fair fathers should provide support. 
(IFF) it is considered "unfair" for a woman to be FORCED to support (gestate) a child she does not want (THEN) it is equally "unfair" for a man to be FORCED to support a child he does not want
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@SkepticalOne
Right now, father's should pay child support. I would like to see father's helping with pregnancy if they aren't already.
based on what principle ?
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@SkepticalOne
so it would certainly not be appropriate to have men skip while women have no choice.
is it perhaps a violation of self-ownership to force a man to provide a physical dna sample based on an accusation ?
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Restrictions on Abortion
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@SkepticalOne
You're not wrong, but I am hopeful killing Roe to satisfy religious sensibilities will bring a stronger advocacy to the separation of state and religion.
fingers crossed
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