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@AustinL0926
ADOL, have you ever played forum mafia before?
Never, this is first time.
There are a few things I noticed from you that I've seen mostly from experienced players, which is why I'm curious:-The use of "theatre" as a way to describe fake scum-scum conflict, which is indeed a specific piece of vocabulary in mafia that I didn't see any other players this game use yet
It's a good word to use for a conspiracy to behave a certain way in public.
-Noting that D1 lynches are barely above rand accuracy (correct, but not an intuitive conclusion)
Trust establishment is a fundamental factor in game theory and it's a generally accepted premise that assuming equal intelligence and deceptiveness no words can establish trust. It's the "they know that I know they know etc.... convergence", i.e. anyone with a theory of other minds more accurate than the actual other mind's logic should be able to generate a perfect lie (again no evidence).
It's intuitive to me that there shouldn't be any reliable advantage which would allow above random accuracy.
If you include knowledge of player's character (real character not game character), mistakes (unequal intelligence or honesty) then that assumption is off.
-Noting that no lynches are statistically worse than rand lynches
Again, it's immediately obvious in observing the game mechanics. Just think of the the extreme cases, if the town lynch nobody the mafia always win. Therefore the ideal amount of lynching is above zero, without evidence random lynching is the only >0 lynching possible. At least some of the time random lynching will kill the mafia before everyone in the town is dead.
Of course the idea of the game is to use logic and personality assessment to get better than random targeting, but even then it follows that seeing how players react to potential lynchings is one of the few constant triggers for evidence creation.
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@whiteflame
@WyIted
It sounds like this role could have gone to multiple characters (at least the Cop portion of it due to the mindreading being a more common power), but given that he figured out your character from your Vanillaizer role, it's not like it's outlandish.
Investigating and controlling are two different things.
Cop investigates, and there are much better characters to be a cop, like non-evil characters.
Galby is the undisputed choice for controlling other people's minds or manipulating them, so connecting that with a vanillaizer is understandable.
I repeat: The proposition (A) that Wylted is a vanillizer is very truthy right now as the only reason that Lunatic would lie about that is if he's scum too, which doesn't make sense.
It was Pie's decision to match the role with the character.
The other two propositions are:
B) Wylted is Galbatorix
C) Wylted is scum
I think we can dismiss ~B, who would claim to be a villain when they aren't the villain?
In my mind (C) is correlated with (B) weakly and also correlated with ~(D): Vanillizer, but I can't disable scum and I have to wait for them to fail to admit to being vanillized to know they are scum.
Best lies are half truths. If he was scum he wouldn't ever vanillize other scum, but while scum vanillizer for galby makes some theme-sense a good guy vanillizer that disables other good guys but not bad guys doesn't.
Maybe Pie thought otherwise, maybe it's the half-lie and Wylted is scum. It's more to go on than anything anyone else has said.
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Ok, can we all agree that lynching nobody is a bad idea (for town)? Even random lynches are better than doing nothing as the scum can score sure hits at night.
If not I guess I'll just wait until more evidence comes to light.
The only base line unique behavior of scum should be protecting other scum, and right now there is a lot of protecting going on. I say we take out Wylted and see what happens.
I will also claim my character is Arya. I will not give role.
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@Cerulean
I have no frame of reference, but it compounds with the oddness of the main villain being town.
There isn't much to go on. Even my most firm conclusion, that the mafia is not Lunatic and Wylted (the set), is not certain. They could believe that they could inoculate themselves from suspicion by faking this vanillaizer/arson conflict.
It's just unlikely that they put out the fake characters given that lying about your character could collide with another player's given character. Worst case they convinced 2 people they're lying.
It's also a strategy that could backfire (as I said).
I could be convinced to switch to someone else but as of right now it's all unconfirmed except for Wylted and Lunatic corroboration the existence of this vanillification.
Without night actions and lynch results it's all just speculation. I suspect that DP1 is more or less a random lynch generator unless someone confesses by accident.
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@Mharman
We don't know that for sure. Lunatic claimed that.Wylted’s results clearly weren’t interfered with since Lunatic lost his powers
The reason we know they're not both scum putting on a theater is because this is more likely to get one of them lynched than anything else.
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@Mharman
I confirm Lunatic on theme. Shades are always evil, they are formed from a failed attempt at sorcery, evil spirits possess the sorcerer.
Durza shows he's evil many times, but it's not like there was any other option. Nobody with any knowledge of magic in the whole series ever questions whether a shade is bad.
So Durza is basically born evil.
Galbatorix choose to be evil, obviously with triggering circumstances of losing his partner, yet still a choice since Brom went through the same thing.
Murtagh is not evil, he's a tragedy.
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@Cerulean
Obviously this is my first game, I just don't understand the origin of that rule. What abuse could come about by copy pasting a role? The danger is in giving too much information but if you've already decided to be transparent...
Right now I am inclined to think that this modified vanillaizer town, but villain themed character, is too complicated to believe.
The simpler theory is that Wylted is a vanilla vanillizer (pun intended) scum who made up this thing about affecting scum and town differently to explain why he would vanillize anyone without doubling down on calling them scum.
Given that lynching nobody must inevitably lead to town defeat I guess I'll vote to lynch Wylted.
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@ILikePie5
@WyIted
We are not allowed to but I will look again and paraphrase
That true? People have been revealing characters and roles, it would be strange not to allow the exact wording.
I want to know what the justification for galbatorix having this specific form of vanillaization was.
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@WyIted
Paste the full description of your role as given by pie if that's the case please.The part of my role I was holding back was the fact that besides vanillaizing I also cop the player ai vanillaized. If I cop scum they keep their ability. Lunatic was in a lot of peoples scum pile so I copped him and since he was innocent he also got vanillaized. I wanted the vanillaized person to mention they were vanillaized before I stated who I targeted in case of a redirect at play.
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The only reason Lunatic would conspire with Wylted on a lie is if they were both scum (and knew it), and in that case Lunatic pushing for Wylted to be lynched would be a pointless strategy that could backfire.
Therefore I consider it to be confirmed that Wylted is a vanillaizer because Lunatic said he was vanillaized.
I consider it high probability that Wylted was telling the truth about being galby since he could have picked many other characters to impersonate that might be vanillaizers and each would have been a risk of tipping of the real character.
Therefore the only interpretations are that:
Wylted is scum and Lunatic is town,
OR
Wylted and Lunatic are both town and this is friendly fire
Therefore the only interpretations are that:
Wylted is scum and Lunatic is town,
OR
Wylted and Lunatic are both town and this is friendly fire
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@Lunatic
@Mharman
[Lunatic] Last night I primed wylted because I thought he was scum, but I'll not be able to kill him now since I am vanilla.
Did Wylted know you primed him? He might call it self-defense if he did.
[Mharman] If we call Murtagh a villain here, I definitely think it’s possible for Galbatorix to be town as well.
Murtagh is far less a villain than galbatorix. If galbatorix isn't the villain that leaves pretty much just durza as potentially worse. Again assuming the theme means anything.
I have just thought of a reason to claim to be galbatorix when you aren't, to get a reaction from the real galbatorix who knows you're lying and that you're not mafia. That's the only thing I can think of.
All the mafia know who each other are right?
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@Lunatic
From DP1:
Hold the f up why is everyone accepting wylted claim so easily? I get villains CAN exist in as town but he gave the absolute weakest justification I've ever seen for it, I feel like people are accepting it way too easily.
I don't understand the point of having a theme if nothing can be inferred from the characters. Galbatorix isn't a grey character he is batshit insane evil.
At the same time I have no idea why Wylted if he was evil Galby would admit to being Galby but only good.
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@DavidAZZ
In this thread, you have the honor :)Has anybody mentioned anything about the vote count in the elections:
IMO variation like that is the weakest tier of evidence. A hundred factors play a role in producing the final numbers. It can reinforce a theory supported by stronger evidence though.
In this case it doesn't. The people who think Trump is Hitler still think that. The government hates him just as much as they always did. If they could have cheated to the same degree as 2020 they would have.
For all we know they did, and millions more people abandoned the establishment this year than 2020.
Another theory is that Trump or allies somehow interrupted the cheating mechanism this time, worst case scenario would be a deal between Trump and the deep state at the last minute (when Biden fell of the stage). That would indicate Kamala was in someway unacceptable to the deep state or that Trump had finally caved on their demands.
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@Mharman
they cited trash piling up in public parks as a negative consequence of a shutdown (with reference to 2018) If that’s the worst they can come up with, I’m not bothered.
National parks I presume. In the USA (for those who don't know) the most important things are handled by local government. Things like sewage, trash, roads, water, police, firefighters, EMS are all county or city level. In some circumstances states have roles in these things.
In other words federal agents don't pickup our trash. In fact in democrat run cities nobody picks up the litter.
I wouldn’t take outrage and the political blame game as evidence that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, or that the government is doing anything useful right now.
For how much we spend it is remarkable how little goes wrong during these so called shutdowns, I don't take Double_R at his word about this supposed fallout, but even in the case of people being upset (probably mostly federal employees who either love or hate Trump already) we already know how the nation feels.
A republican has gotten the majority vote for the first time in 20 years. Trump got it when before he didn't (allegedly). Three consecutive elections of gaining popular support.
If people thought things were going fine that would not happen. They're not going to blame the guy they just elected to slow down the madness for insisting on simplifying that madness down to "only" a hundredish pages.
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@Mharman
Shila is not worth your time.If you can't tell the difference, you are not worth my time.
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Oh no! Not a government shutdown! If those last too long what excuse for stealing will we have after people realize we don't do shit!
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@Greyparrot
You didn't say how expensive it is or anything about it.
If it's a sports car and you can still exchange it, do it. They're pointlessly fast and introduce needless maintenance problems. If it's a truck and you don't ever carry more than 1000 lb take it back.
If it's the right kind of car but its expensive because of useful features like hybrid electric or a lot of luxury features just take care of it and enjoy.
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@Best.Korea
Well then the masses can be killed and thrown into mass graves. Got zero shits to give about people like that.
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@Best.Korea
We can stop rape in prisons easily. Just make it the death penalty. Put cameras up everywhere.
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@Greyparrot
Don't accept any hockey sticks if someone offers them. It's not a gift, it's a recruitment tactic.
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@zedvictor4
@Reece101
Yes prisoners should be put to work. Hell we need to bring back compulsory labor for civil debts. Right now somebody can screw you over terribly but if they have nothing to take you get no recompense.
For example squatters can hide in your house for 10 months lying about and forging leases. They trash the place, costing 50k in repairs before finally being evicted. Then if you can even serve them afterwards (and they don't make this easy) you can sue them, win, and if they have nothing you can take they get away with it.
That's bullshit. They need to go to a work camp until they produce 50k of value to repair their liability.
At the same time:
Is that a good incentive for corporations and governments to have?
No it isn't. Just like it is a very bad thing to let the government deprive rights like guns and the vote because of "crimes". That gives them a motivation to use lawfare against personal and political enemies.
We don't ever want to be in a situation where they start charging a voter base with crimes and convicting them in partisan courts to take away their voting rights.
We can have the cake and eat it too by separating powers. The people who decide who gets paroled and prison time can't be the same people that stand to gain by it. They need to be personally rewarded for releasing convicts who don't re-offend and personally punished for releasing convicts who do re-offend.
Always the key to stable efficiency is personal motivation. Putting prisoners to work is fine so long as the people gaining from that work have zero say in whether they must keep working and would lose financially if the prisoner was not being put to efficient use.
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@Shila
Alright, I'm ignoring you for now. Don't know if you're having a bad day, you're a troll, or you're a bot but this isn't going anywhere.
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@Shila
Listen let me know when you have a point and can remember the context of your own statements.
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@Shila
It is considered abuse if you leave your pet outside in the cold.
Yes I know, that was the point.
Potential for abuse without ability to file a police report is irrelevant. There was a much more verbose exploration of this failed argument near the start of the this thread.
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@Savant
the shooting of George Floyd
George Floyd killed himself with drugs, he was not shot.
but until everyone can agree on a healthcare system
Free market means we don't have to agree on a system.
So until everyone can agree on a free market...
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Suddenly tradesecret is back. He's heard the siren call.
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Reverse psychology, clever.
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Damn I was so sure it was Underdog making another utterly retarded thread
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@Casey_Risk
I'll read it when I get a chance and get back to you.
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@Casey_Risk
I've never played before, what's the learning curve?
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@ILikePie5
Alright the subject finally made me click on one of these mafia threads. So is this game observable?
Also you can't recommend the book to people without warning them to stay the hell away from the movie and bury it deep if they ever find a copy.
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The new atheist religion is expanding its dogma I guess.
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@RemyBrown
If you don't give me your social security number you're in a cult.Then they are in a cult
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@WyIted
He knows C++? That makes him much more useful than a CEO.
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@WyIted
It includes those descended from the United Kingdom including Scotland, Ireland and England.
"but not the catholic irish or scotts, just the really 'white' whites, basically just me and nobody else"
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@WyIted
What is this definition of "white" that doesn't include Italians? Is it from family guy?
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@Best.Korea
Stop being so evil. Be as transparent as our lives appear to them.Just what the fuck is government supposed to do?
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@WyIted
The killer is brown but he has proven himself unfathomably based and I hereby certify him as an honorary white person.
Luigi is white.
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@Double_R
Joe Biden's pardon of Hunter has released the latest wave of brazen hypocrisy where MAGA suddenly pretends to care about the abuse of the pardon power and the idea that president's should be held to a high standard.
That strawman is itself bad faith.
Kinda like "Biden is too old"
Nobody said "Biden is too old" on the right, they said he was senile.
The reason the propagandists converted it to "old" is so they can claim it was hypocrisy. Just like they are changing "you lied you fucking hypocrite" to "you abused pardon power".
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@Double_R
Trying to break your previous gaslighting record huh? Not interested. Maybe when you're a little more sane.
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@Double_R
I am not interested enough in the game to found out why you think you can claim that.He broke the law. Being prosecuted it what follows. That's not lawfare.Joe Biden disagrees.No, he doesn't. Nothing he said contradicts that.
The excuse:
Here’s the truth: I believe in the justice system, but as I have wrestled with this, I also believe raw politics has infected this process and it led to a miscarriage of justice
= lawfare
You claimed that I don't give a shit about precedent. A posting of me telling you that I'm not going to bother citing precedent to someone who doesn't understand how basic human communication works doesn't support that claim.
*writes "doubling down on not giving a shit about precedent" on psychiatric pad*
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@n8nrgim
that might be appropriate for very disabled and poor people. but even for them, why not look at it as social/health insurance?
Looking at an immoral act as anything but an immoral act is dishonest and itself immoral.
After the civil war the plantation owners (who really should have been imprisoned and their assets seized) began to impress blacks into "apprenticeships" from which it was illegal to escape and practically impossible to turn down given that they'd lynch you if you did.
Slavery by any other name is still slavery. Theft by any other name is still theft. Therefore I won't be looking at any other way than the way it is.
Any program that knowingly redistributes funds based on need rather than risk without forcing subscribers to pay is by definition partly charitable. That is at most a hybrid of charity and insurance.
anybody could have been the one who was very disabled, it's largely random. i dont see a reason to say it's inherently theft to have a social insurance program.
Insurance isn't theft. Taking value without consent is theft.
Charity isn't insurance. Insurance mitigates risk with a collective fund.
You say "anybody could have been disabled", but if it's already happened (preexisting condition) then it's not "could have" it's "has".
Suppose you had a car insurance company that had perfectly balanced books. Now what happens if a hundred thousand people come in AFTER having already crashed a car and somehow expect for the accident to be paid for.
That's just free money from you the existing customer. If their insurance fee was greater than or equal to the claim payout there would be no point in getting insurance.
Insurance is for people who on average pull their own weight (or more). I know not everyone can pull their own weight and insurance is not what those people need. They need charity (and probably some help getting stronger).
as for the rest of people, healthcare is excessively expensive.
Almost like government dictates what they cover, what medicines are allowed, what makes a doctor qualified, and who is allowed to sue.
Healthcare insurance companies are lobbying machines, like military contractors. The only thing they can control is government favoritism.
Get government out of the healthcare market and see if it's still broken in 10 years.
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@n8nrgim
There is no solution to people being unable to provide for their own care except charity.the social contract should be such that the government figures out a solution.
It's a simple dichotomy. If they're helped voluntarily that is defined as charity. If they're helped by people the government has enslaved that's slavery.
Slavery is unacceptable. The end.
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@Double_R
However the crimes Hunter hasn't been charged with yet were included in the pardon had victims, the entire American people and probably a lot of people in Ukraine and China too.This noting but conspiratorial nonsense. The republicans have been investigating this for 4 years and found nothing. The pardon was because enough is enough, this is the witchhunt you guys have been screaming about for almost a decade now.Punching back isn't immoralIt is when your punching back against something that was completely fabricated.It is entirely implausible that these kangaroo courts and witch trials spontaneously appeared in a temporal cluster before an electionThey didn't. Every single one of these investigations/trials had been ongoing for the entire 4 years, some even before that. Not sure you are aware of this, but criminal proceedings takes years, and still they would have all taken place had Trump not fought tooth and nail to delay all of them indefinitely, so spare me your fake timing outrage, Trump largely created that.
Bla bla bla "what you forgot is that I'm right about everything"
and even if it was a grassroots conspiracy to "get Trump" why the fuck should I care? It's still lawfare.He broke the law. Being prosecuted it what follows. That's not lawfare.
Joe Biden disagrees.
So anyways the part you ignored in favor of meaningless "nuh ugh":
The first thing reason advises is to look at precedent. That is precisely what you people (and you in particular Double R) didn't give a shit about.Provide one relevant example here
This is after demanding you find a precedent like five times:
I know you have not and will not produce a single precedent that anything DJT said about EJC was defamation.[Double_R] If I have to explain to you what context means and the role it plays in communicating with other human beings, there's no way I'm about to waste my time citing legal precedent with you.
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