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Wylted is just flailing. Making pushes all over the place to see what sticks. I also dislike how he seems to be trying to use his last breath to force out my claim.
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@WyIted
Cerulean says his role visits never heard of a gladiator visiting.
It varies by mod, as far as I'm aware.
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I'm not claiming today. I am curious what you plan to do about that.
As I said:
Claims are meant to inform reads. Reads are meant to inform lynches. With no lynches in play, I see no utility in claiming when it won't change the outcome of the day, but might change the outcome of the night (for the worse).
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Anyway, VTL Wylted. Last partner is likely Earth but I'll reserve judgement til I see the flip.
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@Bullish
There was no other viable wagon and I always prefer lynch over no lynch. I've been consistent about that for a decade.
+1. I would've voted to lynch Moozer too if it was coming down to the end of the day.
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Wylted's push on whiteflame and Bullish just looks like flailing scum. Doesn't make any sense lol and doesn't follow from his reads.
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@Cerulean
But speaking of Austin- we do need a hard claim. You aren't getting away with not claiming just because you can't get lynched today.
Claims are meant to inform reads. Reads are meant to inform lynches. With no lynches in play, I see no utility in claiming when it won't change the outcome of the day, but might change the outcome of the night (for the worse).
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@Cerulean
Your reasoning makes sense, hits a lot of shared opinions with me. I will say that if I was scum I would have just quietly let Moozer die, I could have just pointed out the suspiciousness of the claim and followed the crowd. I think it's pretty clear I made a concerted effort to defend him when I absolutely didn't need to because I truly believed in his innocence (and got shouted down for it).
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@WyIted
Couldn't you have laid out your reasoning so we could discuss it like a team before making this decision?I have had that role a few times and it's very tempting to use it especially if you have a strong town read but it's selfish.I think Austin and or bullish is scum and I could easily lie and say I saw one visit lunatic and town would definitely pursue that lynch seeing as how using the gladiator role will likely result in my lynch, but I didn't do it. I was honest and said I saw nobody visit Lunatic
"I could lie at the cost of getting myself instantly lynched next DP, therefore you shouldn't lynch me at all", is not the convincing reasoning you think it is lol.
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@WyIted
WyIted, you need to fullclaim. Was planning on pushing for it this DP anyway (still not sure why I was alone in that last DP), so this just gives us more focusNot a problem. I am the watcher and was obviously trying to direct the NK. I watched lunatic on both NPs.The scum team must have a ninja or something and I saw nothing either NP
That's awfully convenient and I doubt this. It also doesn't make sense from a balancing perspective for scum to have a ninja while you're watcher, considering that 8v3 is already heavily scumsided and Owen's role was overpowered (redirectors/deflectors/bus drivers in combo with investigative town roles are criminally strong).
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Yep, figured that was Cerulean's role after he claimed his movie.
Wylted was a good choice. Scummy as hell after that last DP.
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I don't like either of the wagons. Consider Wylted here.
Especially given that he's trying to set up my mislynch regardless of how Moozer flips.
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I know exactly how bad this looks if Moozer flips scum. I just very strongly believe he doesn't. I don't like, exactly have the time and effort to constantly lawyer up for him, but I think that the way he's been treated in thread reeks of scum trying to get rid of him before he can confirm himself.
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@whiteflame
Noted and addressed. Literally had a role just like this with a different gifted role last game. Only difference is the daytime use.
Yes, I think Casey could easily have been inspired by it (admittedly Moozer could have copied it too so this is a weak point).
A. You really have to stop doing it, dude. You get sussed for it all the time, so whether you’re doing this accidentally or intentionally, please stop.B. You’re definitely not getting a pass for it, particularly with this role and what it takes to confirm yourself. You either went anti-town with it or you’re scummy. Both are bad.
I'm annoyed at Moozer as well. Guess what, I don't lynch people because they're annoying. There is a huge distinction between being anti-town and scummy, being able to identify the difference is one of the most critical skills any mafia player can have.
Not convinced of that yet. Decently likely there’s another protective role that’s just not claimed yet because it’s not a CC. Even if there are no others, in a game with a Vanilla Cop and this many Vanillas, I suspect both town and scum are underpowered, so that’s not impossible.
Another point in Moozer's favor. I'm just going to say right now that my role has no overlap with Moozer, and weakly supports the existence of his role.
Even if you did that, I can almost guarantee that something will happen during the NP that will result in an unexpected result. Strange as well that you haven’t mentioned a limit on when you can act. Is it just the end of the DP? Could you submit it now, get lynched, and it would still go to the target because you confirmed your target before you died? If not, why isn’t it just a nighttime role? I don’t see what you “confirm” here, either.
He can literally give it to someone who can confirm, it doesn't matter the doc actually works.
While we’re at it, no one’s done any theme analysis yet, but it seems like there’s a solid connection between Baby Face and It’s A Wonderful Life that hasn’t been discussed yet: films that weren’t appreciated on release. It’s A Wonderful Life got its figurative wings as a film when it started being played on television, not when it was in theaters. Can’t say the other films claimed so far fit that bill.
That's decent analysis, but I still townread Moozer overall.
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@whiteflame
Because we already did. He had TWO DPS to confirm his role and didn't, whether out of an abundance of misplaced caution or because, as you put it, he just plumb forgot.
Yes. I find it a more likely scenario then him fakeclaiming. Balancing of relative probabilities.
And the difference is that, in that game, Owen was lynched DP1. He didn't have a chance to confirm. If Owen had survived and claimed he didn't use his role NP1, I'd have been right alongside everyone else sussing the fuck out of him for failing to confirm his role when given the chance.
And we can give Moozer a chance to confirm today.
I've been very thorough on my reasoning for Moozer being scum. If you want to call it overconfidence, then respond to even a fraction of what I've posted because this is ridiculous. As for Owen, I made clear at the start of DP2 that he was my preferred lynch. But at this point, if you want to lynch me, you'd better have a good reason not to believe Luna's result.
Moozer's posting is towny and his claim is towny. I don't want to lynch you anymore.
If all of the above defense of Moozer wasn't enough, this is just the icing on the cake. No one's pushed on you for your claim yet, but you're already defensive about it and dismissive of any potential pressure you could receive. If your goal is to draw attention to you, you're doing great.
Why are you role fishing?
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Sorry, had to go do something - I missed Luna's replies, so he and whiteflame are almost certainly town, hard to see him tying himself so closely to a scum partner like this.
VTL Wylted
Next in line in my suspects. I think Earth and banana (especially the latter) are likely town
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@WyIted
But he literally came up with the exact some role and made a terrible excuse for not using thay exact same role previously. See post 46
I can see the similarities. But his excuse there was a lot more plausible and so was the role.
Like to be frank, I just don't think Moozer would come up with that justification for such a specific role only to claim it couldn't be confirmed in that manner.
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@Lunatic
Are you sure that whiteflame is a Vanilla Townie, or just Vanilla? Typically, a Vanilla cop will get a "Vanilla" result for both Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons, at least in my experience.
unvote to prevent any shenanigans but would like an answer to this when you can
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Also, why are we not giving him a phase to confirm?
This is especially sus by whiteflame, who tore into town last game for not letting Owen, who claimed almost the exact same role, confirm himself.
VTL whiteflame
He had some sketchy positioning around Owen's wagon and I don't like his overconfident push here. There's zero reason for him to be as confident as he is in Moozer being scum, and pushing it so hard, without agenda.
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Hm. Wild claim from Moozer. Town.
Obligatory Sherlock Holmes quote:
"Don't you see that you alternately give himcredit for having too much imagination and too little?"
On a surface level, it looks ridiculous.
But if you believe Moozer is scum here, you'd have to believe he came up with the effort of creating a complex role claim, an excellent justification, just to come up with a terrible excuse for why he couldn't use it.
Like, he could have claimed 1-shot, he could have claimed Night Inventor who got roleblocked, he could have claimed regular Doctor (consider that if this is a fakeclaim, then there very likely isn't an actual Doctor in the game, as he could have asked Casey for a safeclaim), and he claims in what's almost designed to look like the scummiest way possible.
It's easier for me to think that he had this role and forgot. I've seen worse.
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@Owen_T
I have this tendency to be lynched first dp, and as millers are policy lynch in lack of a better option, I thought it would be best to just keep my head down. And not die. Needless to say, think I learned a lesson.
So you decided to play in a way that would inevitably get you eventually wagoned, and when you got wagoned, you claimed Miller? All in an attempt to not get mislynched like normal? Not really buying this.
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If this flips scum I would venture to say that the scum team is either inexperienced or not very active because claiming Miller, especially in the way he did, is really sketchy play as scum.
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Yeah that's not a good look for Owen lol, agree with Pie that he should have SOPed and knows better than to hide it like this. Plus, Miller + 2 VTs is crazy scumsided even if there's a cop.
I do think it's pretty likely that Owen might have saw how Earth got by easily last game with a Miller claim and decided to emulate it.
VTL Owen
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Ok
Should I hammer now? Or do we need more time to discuss
Should I hammer now? Or do we need more time to discuss
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I can hammer Owen if we need to test bullish's role, I haven't read closely but he's probs around null to scum by poe anyways
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@whiteflame
Gun to your head, who do you lynch?If I had to pick, it’d be between WyIted and Austin. Don’t really have a preference yet, so flip a coin if I have to choose.w
Yeah, I don't really mind being in the POE with my activity level so far. Hopefully school clears up a bit soon so I can actually get out of perpetual catch-up mode in this game.
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@ILikePie5
It’s actually interesting that in her third game she knows what soft claiming is and did it adequately as well. My paranoia makes me think she’s scum and her scum buddy told her to do that so there’s a redux of last game
Where's the soft? All I saw was her claiming a time range, not sure if that counts as softing.
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I still feel a bit uneasy with how eager Bullish was to claim his role, considering how useful it would be for town if hidden. Maybe it's a playstyle thing but I wouldn't. I'm putting the claim as NAI for now, I'll be evaluating off behavior.
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I see no reason not to ask Bullish to confirm his role this DP. If something goes disastrously wrong, better here than the day before LYLO.
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I liked Earth's recent series of posts but I'll refrain from elaborating too much. I have Cerulean as town too. I think Bullish is town?
Rereading through the day, Luna is a bit towny for not trying to imitate his town aggressiveness.
whiteflame still around null.
I have a FoS on Wylted. I don't like post 100, again as I said it seems a bit performative to seem like he's solving. Usually when I see people pressure lurkers, it's just a straight-up pressure vote.
Post 102 also seems like he's trying too hard to look town, like he's not afraid to get lynched (which obviously has no impact if it's just testing Bullish's role.)
VTL Wylted
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My personal philosophy is to just pressure the active players during the day and use night actions to resolve lurkers - basically not letting anyone skip through. The problem is that solely pushing lurkers during the day doesn't generate discussion and allows active scum players to pretty much just skate by with zero problems.
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I don't really like Wylted pushing inactives, it's not inherently a bad thing but it's not a substitute for scum hunting and solving like he seems to be implying.
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If Cerulean is softing what I think he's softing, I think it's very likely that both he and Bullish are real. Just from a setup design POV.
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@Bullish
There's a stipulation that I personally could not have voted for the person I'm going to pardon. Also I can't pardon myself. So it's functionally disabled at lylo.
Can you explain how that means it's disabled at LYLO?
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@Bullish
Hm, a Governor that can simply restart the day is actually *extremely* powerful, because it basically gives town a free win if the
-Governor survives to LYLO without claiming
-The Governor doesn't get wagoned in LYLO
since they can bait a quickhammer, out all the mafia, and then restart the day consequence free.
This has me hesitating a bit on Bullish, because it would make sense as a sort of non-mechanically affecting but town-confirming role that I could see Casey giving - 3 v 8, in traditional setupmaking, is fairly scumsided, so usually town has a ton of mechanical power while mafia have more symbolic roles.
Bullish, is your role disabled in LYLO/MYLO?
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Consolidating some reads (I will provide more detail, just exhausted from an unreasonable amount of schoolwork assigned by teachers who seem to believe all the other teachers are giving students a free ride).
-Pie's pressure and aggression is NAI for him really. Did like him following up and stuff and considering claims, e.g. being skeptical of a potential Lawyer
-Earth/Cerulean both town for how they handled the claim and willingness to fullclaim
-I think Bullish's claim is real for how oddly specific it is (from a mod psyche point of view, variants of common roles are disproportionately real claims). Skipping the night phase is odd though.
-Wylted slightly towny for what seems like a real, albeit unorthodox attempt to solve, but want to see more breadth, single issue voting is easy to fake.
-Banana slightly towny for not paying attention to instructions, usually scum are a bit more cooperative with "easy" stuff like character claiming. Same with Moozer.
-Null on Luna, WF, Owen so far.
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Early character claiming is a good meta when the characters don't closely correspond to obvious roles, btw (unlike actual people such as in Heroic Heroes and Villainous Villains). The expected value we get from narrowing down mafia's possible claims and generating discussion is far greater than the small possibility that mafia might be able to vaguely sus out a PR.
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@ILikePie5
Busy for a bit today, will be around in the evening. I solemnly swear I will not pull off any questionable gambits this game.
I'm 1930-1935, Crime.
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@Casey_Risk
The theme split was "Accidents involving two aircraft" vs "Accidents involving one aircraft." Per personal mod preference, I had the Miller as part of the mafia themesplit.
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Still have thoughts regarding balancing! Just out and about today so I'll try to get it tomorrow, because I do think the concept of balancing a mafia game is very interesting and would be helpful to potential hosts in the future regarding what to and what not to do.
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Ok, first, an explanation for the no contest:
At the end of day 3, I said "investigations were disabled with only one scum left."
I meant this to refer to the in-thread investigations. However, technically, this could fully refer to role investigations (i.e. whiteflame's role as well). This pretty much violates a cardinal rule of modding: players should not be punished for moderator ambiguity.
As a result, Cerulean didn't redirect banana's roleblock to whiteflame, allowing him to get "innocent" on banana rather than "no result." I believe that if he had known the correct intepretation, he absolutely would have.
Although I'm not sure if this materially affected the endgame result, it could have for two reasons - first, banana being "innocent" would raise the bar for her to be scum, as she would need to have some sort of investigation falsifying-role along with her early claim of roleblocker. Second, whiteflame getting "no result" likely would have made him suspicious considering banana literally claimed, you know, roleblocker. Thus, no contest for scum is the best way I had to mitigate this.
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N1 Actions:
WF – Dreamer (Ceru, Casey, Moozer)
Casey – Track Moozer
Moozer – Strengthen Pie
Banana – Roleblock Pie
Ceru – NK Casey, Deflect Ceru to Luna
Luna – none
Resolution:
WF receives: No result
[This is due to being deflected to Luna. He will receive “there are zero scum in your three targets” next NP.]
Casey receives: “Your target visited Pie.”
Casey is NKed. She will not flip until the end of the day.
[This is due to her legacy role]
N2 Actions:
WF – Parity Cop (Ceru, Pie)
Banana – Roleblock Earth
Ceru – NK Luna, Redirect Banana to Pie, Actress WF
Resolution:
WF receives “Your targets have the same alignment”
[Actress resolves before investigations.]
WF receives “Delayed N1 Result: there are zero scum in your three targets.”
Luna begins bleeding.
N3 Actions:
WF cops banana
Banana roleblocks Cerulean
Cerulean kills Earth
Cerulean redirects banana to luna
Resolution:
Earth is NKed
Luna bleeds out.
Whiteflame gets “your target is innocent.”
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@Earth
@whiteflame
@Cerulean
@iamanabanana
The probable cause of the accident was determined to be a deliberate attempt by two people to hijack the plane and cause an in-flight upset. In the following struggle for control, the plane clipped into the ground in a high-force catastrophic breakup, but miraculously, both hijackers were killed and two passengers survived.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@Casey_Risk
@Moozer325
@Owen_T
Out of 9 on board Mayday Flight 4, there were only 2 survivors.
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