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@Mharman
Austin is getting townier as this goes on imo
I'm actually posting towny rn but also I'm irrationally paranoid that you expressed that right after I said I like to townread people who townread me :p
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@Mharman
Ok so I started the wagon. But Whiteflame was the first to put a big sus on Greyparrot I think
I think he voted GP after GP expressed sus on him and refused to elaborate? so it's more reactive imo
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VTL whiteflame
placeholder vote but curious about thread's opinions on this.
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whiteflame feels a little bit... passive? He's mostly going along with the flow other than directly addressing GP. The frustration leans neutral for me, I think both town and scum would get frustrated by a naked scumread on them. I remember him being passive is more in his scum meta, so I dunno.
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If I remember correctly, GP's stubborness is mostly non alignment indicative. Kinda trending downward because I would have expected him to at least give some reads.
WF is posting fine, tbh I'd probably be townreading him if I didn't know he's perfectly capable of posting well-reasoned thoughts as both alignments.
I feel like there's one in the inactives because I'm townreading a lot of the active posters, but I also dislike lynching inactives if only because if they flip town then you head into the next day down two townies with no additional info.
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I have a weak townlean on Wylted but maybe I'm just a sucker for getting townread. I find his vote on Pie a little bit towny if only because it looks almost too opportunistic at a surface level and Pie is notoriously OMGUSy, but that's not a super strong point.
If I had to give a solve right now it'd probably be one of [WF/GP] and [Pie/Luna] but I can't really substantiate that beyond vibes.
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I'll be around tomorrow to give my thoughts. sorry, kinda tired rn. reads still at where they are yesterday, GP trending down a bit
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I'm probably going to be busy for a lot of tomorrow - need to catch up on some studies because I procrastinated over break in responsible fashion :d
I'll check in when I can, hopefully we get some activity going.
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Also Casey is solid town. Questioning my GP read and then putting the effort to check past games to confirm is indicative of towny caution, it comes from a genuine place of trying to figure out my alignment.
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@Mharman
Do you think scum would be softing/claiming their album do gain towncred, or do you think they’d would be looking to avoid claims like the plague?Actually here’s another question: Could mafia be unknowingly TMIing about the setup with how they behave?
Eh, I'd consider it NAI. There's no themesplit and the role claims are practically infinite.
And yes, they definitely could be, that's part of the reason I tried to start some discussion there. Faking setup spec is a lot trickier than faking reads, which any decent scum player can do.
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@Greyparrot
@Casey_Risk
Interesting point. Tbh, my first thought was that GP should be the lynch if we don't find a better option by the end of the DP. It's a role that can't be confirmed before death, and even if he dies, we still get active feedback from a confirmed townie.Also, it's worth noting that I was a Tree Stump of sorts in Mayday Mafia, but to activate my Tree Stump status, I had to be flipless for the day. I assumed this was just so that I wouldn't be confirmed town while still able to talk, meaning I could still potentially be scum, though no one seemed to question my townie status at all. I think it's noteworthy that Austin seems to be overlooking this possibility.
I would prefer a GP lynch over a no lynch, but all else being equal I'd push for the scummiest player. I do agree that even if wrong, it would probably be the least damaging to town.
Uhh you're right that he might not flip. I forgot about that ngl, I have the memory of a goldfish when it comes to some things. Usually I've seen it with flip, I designed the role in Mayday Mafia that way specifically in order to fit thematically with all the other flip manipulating roles.
GP, can you confirm you still flip normally on death, even pre-treestump?
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Anyway, unvote because Pie said his activity is non alignment indicative. Solid null but gets a pass for today obviously, hope you feel better soon.
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@ILikePie5
Hate this post by Austin. Why speculate about roles?
I'm not speculating about roles, I'm explaining how it's relevant to the setup. I don't expect or want people to talk too much about their roles both for regular reasons (leaking info benefits scum) and also for potential setup reasons.
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@ILikePie5
I don’t get this at all (maybe cause I’m dying right now). Can you explain this like I’m 5 years old.
-Cerulean might be borrowing a mechanic that I've seen on Mafiauniverse (and elsewhere) called "anticlaim."
-Anticlaim is a setup mechanic designed to discourage town claiming in order to balance the setup.
-How it works is that the scum team can submit a post containing a claim to the mod each night, and if correct, then they can apply a penalty to that player. This penalty can range from kinda bad to very bad.
TLDR: be cautious of claiming. I doubt Cerulean would make this mechanic extremely powerful considering that this is a fairly new concept in DART and is likely to piss off players if they get killed for what would be acceptable mechanical play (i.e. just claiming your role) in any other DART setup, but you never know.
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@whiteflame
Still, counter to that, strongest townread atm is Austin. Regardless of the broader mechanics involved (and Austin has a point about what they could be), scum have relatively easy fake claims to make given the lack of a theme split and the broad array of options from any given album. I don’t think they’d push back this hard on claiming.
Can you elaborate on this - are you saying that me pointing out potential anticlaim is towny because I wouldn't need to discourage claiming as scum? I suppose it's true, but seems a bit of a tangential point in regards to the rest of my posting.
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half the posts in this game have been in the last 2 hours, I got the game out of RVS :p
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Town:
Mharman
GP? (just claim for now, need behavior)
Lean town:
Wylted
Slight town:
Casey
Earth
Null:
WF
Luna
Slight scum:
Pie
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@Mharman
Like Wylted doesn't need to say he's not gonna press someone on activity instantly if he's mafia. This is the tell. I feel like he often gives advice to other players when he's town. This one's easy to fake though. He certainly isn't looking scummy to me, so that's a good start.
Agree with this fwiw.
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To be honest, RVS is always hard. Maybe we are busy, but it is how DP1 ends up. Not a nice thing but w/e. - EARTH
I find this towny but it's a bit difficult to explain why.
It's like Earth is slightly frustrated in a towny way but doesn't feel pressured to look good. I think as scum he would have a good opportunity to look like an excited townie trying to get the game out of RVS and he would have taken it. But here he's just chilling.
Dunno, just vibes.
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mmm post 50 and 51 by Mharman were towny.
Scumreading a lot of people loosely is a sign of a townie struggling to get into a game and also just isn't what scum do, scum like to blend in and townread as many people as possible to avoid being OMGUSed.
And paying attention to potential scum strategies is also towny - plus, if he was scum, he would know if scum were given fakeclaims and would be less likely to explicitly speculate on them.
So that's my first confident townread.
Wylted, Casey, are leantown for now.
So... Mharman, GP, Wylted, Casey, is what I'm vibing with for now. I think finding townreads early and often is a good strategy in a low-activity DP because it forces those outside of it, whether town or scum, to post more in order to not get boxed out.
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@Mharman
Casey mentioned:
Cool, but why are you direct claiming this when the OP already said that there may be mechanics in place which punish role/character claiming?
which is basically anticlaim. Thought it was towny of them to out this when otherwise some other people might have started character claiming via talking about their albums.
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@Mharman
I'm still scratching my head on why GP felt he needed to claim so bad. I know he does that a lot, but did he even read the OP?
He does it in literally every game iirc, I wouldn't consider it alignment indicative even in the context of this game's mechanics. I think his Treestump claim is towny, if real it's almost certainly town and if fake then it'd be a strange choice to choose.
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@WyIted
I guess I will just do what Austin does for a while. I got nothing better to do.Don't know why we would do this without getting claims but I trust himUnvote VTL Pie
Interesting, can you explain why you're townreading me (implicitly at least via voting with me)?
The point of pressure is well, to pressure - Pie has a reputation as posting a lot and aggressively as town, so I want to see if trying to get him to meet that expectation does anything. At the very least, it's a more helpful vote than pressuring someone who posts similarly in volume and approach as both alignments.
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@WyIted
I like the mechanic as well. Makes it so people don't just treat claims like a get-out-of-jail free card, which is often the case in role madness setups (I think everyone has a role? It'd be weird to have people send in character submissions and not make a unique role for it).
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actually nvm
VTL Pie
I remember him being a bit more eager to get things going as town, there was enough content at the time of his posts that I would've expected him to engage with GP's claim to some extent. Not a strong scumlean, but maybe something to get things going.
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Don't have strong reads on anyone in particular right now except for GP.
GP's roleclaim reads as town, treestump is a difficult role to explicitly fake since pretty much any sign of having an active ability just outs you. If he is actually a treestump, then it's basically guaranteed to be town-aligned since there's no point of having a mafia treestump - after flipping scum, no one's going to listen to them.
Casey's post about anticlaim reads a bit town.
vtl whiteflame
reasons
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Hi, totally didn't forget about this :)
Some info which I think could be pretty useful: the OP mentions that there might be abilities that punish claiming. Cerulean is a Mafiauniverse player and setup designer and there's a pretty standard setup mechanic there called "anticlaim" which fits that description, which I'm familiar with due to playing on that website a lot.
Generally, the mafia team submits a post containing a claim, and depending on the setup and the degree of information (role info almost always counts for more than character or flavor info), the player who gets "anticlaimed" can be:
-rolecopped
-roleblocked (most common, usually for partial claims)
-killed (pretty common way to punish full claims)
-strongman killed (less common, usually in role madness games with lots of town protective roles)
So I would discourage claiming any info unless it's absolutely necessary.
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@Cerulean
I'm fine with any start time, I'd be more active during Thanksgiving but afterwards is cool too
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Put me as a backup, if it hasn't filled by November 2nd I can /in
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Also, don't rush to vote in final 3. Take a step back and consider that if you're town, you're there for one of two reasons - either scum thinks you can be mislynched, or scum thinks you're going to vote the other town member. If you can figure out which of those is the case, you're pretty close to nailing down the last scum.
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Ggs, had fun! Thanks Casey for modding. Great job to Cerulean for bringing it home, it was a tricky spot and I didn't see a good way out of it other than distancing and hoping for the best.
Setup was a bit scumsided imo, 3 v 8 is fairly strong ratio for scum because it requires the same number of mislynches as 2 v 9 for scum to win, but gives scum leeway to bus an extra member if things go wrong.
If someone gave me this setup to review, I would probably:
-Change manipulative JOAT to 2-shot RB
-Make Ninja even-night only
-Make neapolitan unlimited
-Mafia gladiator is... eh... it's not inherently scumsided mechanically but in practice it tends to be. I do think the town Governor was enough of a hint that it's fine.
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Oh it's Cerulean and banana lol. Otherwise scum would have hammered.
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@Cerulean
...Hang on, couldn't "The 39 Steps" just be flavor for a Ninja specifically? If it's all about the protagonist going on the run and evading capture, that fits the role very well. Better than a Tracker, because tracking is what the antagonists are doing in the plot, yes?
Justifications are loose, the flips have already shown that. Pretty sure Casey just liked the idea of having a Tracker/Watcher duo in the game. If this is all you have to push me then you might as well throw in the towel now.
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@Bullish
Who's the other scum?
I don't think it's banana, I don't see why Owen would fight desperately to survive by pushing his teammate. It's 80% Earth and 20% you. I also think from a design perspective, your role almost counters Cerulean's, so you're unlikely to be of the same alignment.
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@Cerulean
You very easily could have hard claimed this. After all, he was claiming a role that could create protectives- give that to Banana and you're safe for at least the next Night.
Lol this is just so bad faith. Nothing I did could have saved Moozer because town was so intent on lynching him. I was the only person that day to save the ONLY claimed protective role in the game and one that could have confirmed himself, I did everything short of claiming a cop innocent on him to save him.
This is a flat-out lie and tells me you either didn't bother to read or are just ignoring what I was saying throughout the day:
I'm not saying it's scummy for you to use your role, but it certainly doesn't give you any town equity to have forced the vote out of a town player yesterday. What does that leave you with? Absolutely nothing towny and a guilty by me on you.
Don't pretend like you really think it would be optimal for me to not use my role and then claim it in LyLo. Seems like a great way to get myself mislynched.
Keep misrepping my argument.
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@iamanabanana
You set this up for a lot of predictable answers, but I'd like to hear in your own words why you didn't expose your results last day phase, and why you targeted cerulean last night?
As mentioned, see above, I tracked Wylted on the night that he visited Luna and Luna was killed.
I didn't expose my results last day phase because it wouldn't change anything. The lynch was fixed between Cerulean and Wylted from the beginning, so I did was push Wylted because of my results.
If Cerulean was in danger of dying, I absolutely would've outed my results last day phase.
If you can give a single good reason why I should've claimed last DP, then we can discuss more, but I'm just not seeing it.
I targeted Cerulean for pretty obvious reasons. He spent an entire day phase gladiating and then helping to vote out a town player. You mentioned it yourself, Cerulean kept pushing Wylted without considering a world where he could be town, just like in Mayday Mafia. Not to mention, Cerulean's role is also an outlier because Gladiator is actually negative utility, typically (because it artifically restricts town's options), making me think he could be scum. Now that I caught him, I can say my decision was pretty justified.
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@Bullish
yeah man austin scum, he had results that corroborated Wylted's action, but refused to claim. Not a town motivated action.
I tracked Moozer to nowhere N1, hence why I was townreading him.
I tracked Wylted to Luna N2 (the night Luna died), hence why I was scumreading him.
Pretty simple.
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@Earth
Let's push Austin/Cerulean off to the side for a bit. From my PoE, the last mafia is Banana or Bullish. Now, is Bullish a mafia governor?
I honestly think it's you and Cerulean right now, but I'm willing to reconsider. Seriously, why snapvote me without asking for my claim?
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@Cerulean
Why are all the wolves on this forum absolute rubbish at fake claims? You're really going for a 3-Investigative narrative?VTL Austin
Tough luck buckaroo. And yes, considering that 3v8 is well-known in setup design to be scumsided and needs heavy town PRs, not to mention mafia clearly have
a. A Ninja with at least one shot
b. A redirector/deflector/busdriver (ungated, can lead to false guilties or innos with no accountability)
It'd be ludicrous for town to not have a lot of power to compensate.
Not to mention in the world where you're scum with gladiator role (I'm having WORDS with Casey about that later), it imbalances things towards scum even more, there'd practically need to be three investigatives for the setup to not be grossly scumsided.
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I didn't claim yesterday because I was an investigative role and didn't want to be messed with, there was zero utility, and none of my results would be useful if outed to town.
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@Earth
I'm the Tracker. I tracked Moozer to no one NP1, Wylted to Luna NP2, and Cerulean to whiteflame last night.
My movie is The 39 Steps. Because the protagonist tries to escape from a shadowy organization following his every move, I am the Tracker.
That's the reason I was pushing for Wylted so hard yesterday, because I thought it was unbelievable to have a Tracker, Watcher, and Neapolitan in the same game, and I also Tracked him NP2.
This is also why I thought Moozer was more likely than not innocent, because it fit with the theory that he wasn't a scum with a night action, but rather either an innocent townie or having a day action like he claimed.
Cerulean has zero good excuse for visiting whiteflame after he claimed Gladiator, scum team probably ran out of ninja shots.
VTL Cerulean
It is incredibly reckless to vote me if you're town without asking me for my claim because scum could quickhammer, unvote me right NOW or I'm assuming you're scum with Cerulean.
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@Earth
So what's the plan heading into tomorrow if we VTNL, assuming whiteflame dies tonight as a confirmed VT and we don't get any new info?
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Honestly I am thinking we should VTNL.
Found wylted's partner.
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If Bullish, WF, Cerulean, and banana, all want me to claim, I will do so by the end of the day.
Wylted's logic about it having no downside is nonsensical when there are some very obvious downsides in terms of night actions and no possible benefit to claiming today.
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@WyIted
There are two options1. Your claim helps town2. Your claim does literally zero damage to youThere is no scenario why your claim would harm town so state right now why you would hold off?Please everyone consider whether a town member when presented with an option of an action that either benefits town or is null but in no conceivable capacity will harm town, whether an actual town member would opt out of that action?
We don't know what roles scum has left.
We don't know who's scum, and by extension who's going to get nightkilled.
There is absolutely a detriment to town by claiming, and I see no possible benefit from claiming early when it has absolutely zero impact on what happens today.
The fact that you don't realize how mafia could mess with my role overnight is probably just a scumslip that mafia's remaining roles are close to useless, so that's good to know.
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@WyIted
Bro you are scum or a retard. I have too much respect for you to think you are a retard.It's a compliment.I am clearly not making pushes to see what sticks I am scum hunting because if I figure something out I can be useful in some way. I am clearly making zero attempt to save myself and have stated multiple times I would rather go now than be a mislynch in LYLO or MYLO
That's WIFOM, I've pretended not to care about my own survival as scum before. In fact, it's the only way you're making it through today considering I doubt you could ever get Cerulean out.
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