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@ILikePie5
Please don’t vote till I get home
You're literally telling me not to vote and then shading me for not voting Luna? Like I just dislike this, it feels like I'm being lined up for a mislynch in F3...
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@Lunatic
For one, its literally the only case I can make against him. From my POV I know I am town, and I know that a tracker exists because I literally used it on pie. So the fact that whiteflame is CC'ing me with that is almost near confirmation that he is scum to me. But you are right, whiteflame has played well, and we are both resorting to WIFOM to try to make a case for ourselves. The same way you don't like the WIFOM of me not being on lynches, I don't like the WIFOM of my "justification is too straightfoward" because that is something I literally cannot control, the mod gave me my PM, and I am guessing knew little of the band I claimed outside of doing a bit of cursory research on google. Or the way whiteflame argues that the existence of a miller can only exist on a non-hidden JOAT. It's complete WIFOM, but its wifom you are choosing to believe. Is me not being on mislynches the most convincing argument in the world? Probably not, but at the end of the day niether is his WIFOM arguments. But I disagree that scum don't have incentive to be on lynches, because I could have easily justified lynching both mislynch targets based on the circumstances and if questioned would have been logically sound in my defense for voting either of them. It's clear that I wasn't around dp1, but you don't think if I was mafia my scum partner couldn't have been spam pinging me to get on to at least vote GP? It would have been incredibly easy to do so. I was also one of the only ones last night not buying the either or situation between WF and mharman, where whiteflame went over and above to explain why wylted was scum, when it was obvious that wylted was being lynched for being on mharmans report. It's almost the exact thing earth was sussing whiteflame for when he pointed out that whiteflame was over explaining himself, and was why he was FOS'ing him convienently before he died just before mylo. All this can be dismissed as WIFOM sure but I just don't understand why your dismissing my WIFOM over his, when he is literally claiming a second JOAT and CC'ing at LYLO, and somehow thats easier for you to buy than all the more obvious wifom in whiteflames direction. If you are town here, I advise you reconsider everything I have said, because the game is at stake if you vote me over whiteflame.
Not everything is WIFOM. I weigh probability over possibility.
For WF to be scum, I have to buy that Wylted's Miller exists solely to counter an ability of Casey's JOAT - and considering four abilities are already accounted for if we believe your claim, that feels unlikely.
For you to be scum, I have to buy that there exists an investigative JOAT and a Dreaming God. That's hardly a CC.
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@ILikePie5
Which one? The order? It works two ways. Let’s say Austin is scum and WF is his buddy. Austin votes Luna, and neither you nor I quickhammer. That means that either Luna is scum or the team is exactly WF/Austin I think. I dislike Austin’s claim of the Strengthener. It’s a convenient (not to mention common) fake claim. And he’s been dodging some questions. If you’re town, the anti-claim HAS to be part of manipulation of your results. I don’t think my suicide bomber theory makes sense. Nor do I think you’d do the appeal to absurdity or rely on your partner and just sacrifice yourself.But all of that aside, I don’t know what the order between you and Austin should be. If he’s heavily leaning town on WF, why hasn’t he voted Luna yet? It’s been a better part of two and a half days
This is disingenous. I haven't intentionally avoided answering any questions, I'm getting pinged left and right by people trying to get my attention and not all of those pings are questions.
I literally haven't voted Luna because I was waiting for you to weigh in on the voting order, so this is ???
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@Mharman
It seems we're both willing to go first. I'll wait for Pie to weigh in, although to be clear I don't view him as cleared town, just more likely.
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For the sake of transparency, I'm strongly leaning towards Luna right now, mainly for mechanics.
In terms of behavior, I think both WF and Luna have posted and argued broadly well. That's not too difficult for any good scum player to fake. However, going back through the arguments, I feel that Luna has materially misrepped WF at several points and I also dislike the logic of "being off mislynch" = town - in fact, having a perfect voting record is often more scummy than not, because scum like to not take the flak for a mislynch and let town do the dirty work.
Let's get to mechanics. All of this really hinges on Casey and Wylted's role.
Casey's role is called a Nightmarish God. Furthermore, all its abilities are compulsive. This heavily hints as to the abilities being ones which are negative utility - I'm guessing:
- I am the hate you try to hide (turns into Hated townie)
- I am the silencing machine (Silencing)
- I am the lover in your bed (Loverizing)
- I give you all you need to know (idk)
- I am the truth from which you run (idk)
- I am denial, guilt and fear (idk, maybe roleblocker)
Notice how all of the obvious abilities affect the target. An investigative ability, which Luna is claiming he dug up, does NOT affect the target and is clearly distinct from the others. It's an outlier.
And getting back to WF and Wylted's claim:
Wylted claimed Miller. We know there must be an alignment investigative role in the game, because that's what Wylted's role descriptions say. If not, then bastard modding whatever.
No one else has claimed an alignment investigative role except whiteflame. If anyone is still withholding that, they're throwing.
So the only possibility - which has been extensively discussed - is that it's for a singular JOAT ability of Casey's. Aside from the fact that "the truth from which you run" is already allegedly taken by Tracker - despite being the best candidate for cop ability - I also, after thinking over it a lot, just don't buy that there's a Miller just for that. I can't exclude it entirely, but given the glaring lack of other investigative roles in the game, whiteflame's role just makes sense for balance, doubly so with Wylted's role.
Finally, Luna's role justification is too straightforward. He has a song named Dig, so he's gravedigger. Literally every flipped person's justification, my justification, and other living player's justifications - at least one of which is town is a stretch. This one's just based off the name of the song.
So yes, I'm fine with voting first if everyone else has checked in.
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@ILikePie5
@Mharman
Yep, no hammer makes it clear at least one is scum, although ruling out a Pie/Mharman team wasn't particularly helpful anyway.
To Pie and Mhar: what do you want the voting order of the remaining players to be?
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I'll review all the mech info tmrw. I think we should establish a voting order where the towniest players vote last btw.
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@whiteflame
whiteflame is literally claiming 1x cop, when we already have a flipped 6x JOAT. Your telling me you don't think a cop ability exists in any of those 6 abilities, and that a 2x investigative JOAT exists along side a 6x JOAT?
A cop ability could exist. But why is there a dedicated miller for a single JOAT ability that the user doesn't even know what it does?
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@ILikePie5
I'm really struggling with that.
I think there's exactly one scum in Luna/WF - i.e. never town v town, never paired.
The easy explanation is just that Mharman yoloed last DP and hoped the crazy mech would get him out of it, but it just feels so unlikely?
Which would leave you, but you're cleared by an investigation by at least one townie, unless Luna/WF are both scum, in which case you're town anyway.
So idk. What's your read on Mharman?
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If there's a Miller without a Cop, we just blame Cerulean postgame tbh. Nothing you can do against that.
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I'm still heavily leaning town on WF just for Wylted's Miller. It specifically mentions alignment investigations, which precludes Tracker shenanigans. I don't buy that it exists solely to counter a single one of Casey's abilities. I find it much more likely that there's a specific role, i.e. WF's, which investigates alignments.
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@Mharman
I notice how last DP, Cerulean went out of his way to say, "The game is not over."
Scum could technically achieve parity if they had an extra kill or smth, although that's borderline bastard. But I can see him adding that in regardless of whether there's a TP or not, just to make it clear the game continues.
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I'm following along with everything, just not replying to much because it's taking a lot of energy and time just to process the mechanics.
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The way whiteflame revealed that claim is towny imo. Also reads as a unnecessary play to make as scum considering he's been pretty much universally townread for his claim with Wylted being Miller.
He could be doing it to take heat off his buddy, but who? Mharman and Pie are both townread, I know I'm town, and he's directing his sus to Luna.
So... yeah, I believe it.
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It's LYLO. I know I'm town and I'm willing to make the first vote. If it's not on scum, we lose to a quickhammer, so I'll make sure it's the right choice. Again, will get to this later today
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@ILikePie5
Where?
When I said that I targeted Mharman because I townread him.
The strengthener doesn’t make sense to me. I’m more and more starting to think it’s an Austin/Luna scum team because Luna mentioned the Bus Driver yesterday and Austin now comes with the Strengthener. It just seems super convenient.
In what way is it convenient? I claimed strengthener before Luna mentioned Bus Driver, and it's only pointing out third-party interference - but as I noted, this wouldn't affect a passive ability, and hence it's irrelevant.
Austin visiting you is also suspect. It’s conceivable that he could’ve messed with your self investigation and in the process got caught because you could see who visited you. Ceru mentioned that
This is the only theory which could fit me being scum imo, and I understand that it looks suspicious on first sight. But again, in that case I would be throwing shade on Mharman, not hard defending him here.
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@ILikePie5
I'll get to this today. Suffice to say I dislike how people are trying to throw me in a scum team without considering how I'd possibly be playing to scum win condition here.
I'll make my argument simple:
If I'm scum with someone other than Mharman, I don't essentially clear Mharman and give him an out by verifying with the mod (who just replied) that it would not prevent interference with a passive ability unless the ability specifically mentions that it can be interfered with by active actions.
If I'm scum with Mharman, then he doesn't say I visited him N1, pigeonholing my possible claims and forcing us to rely on the theory of third-party interference.
Pie, if I'm scum, who am I paired with? How am I playing to scum agenda?
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@Lunatic
The last thing I will say about austin is I am a bit surprised with the strengthener claim mainly because I didn't get that from his final post in dp1, I felt like he was hinting at some investigative role and trying to tell us who he investigated in case he dies. Strengthener does feel a bit off kilter after that.
Also - can you explain this? I don't see how that hints to an investigative role at all because I can't give any results when I'm dead, so who I investigated doesn't matter. Being an investigative role wouldn't give me more accurate reads lol.
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@Lunatic
My role PM specifically mentions that it prevents actions from being roleblocked or redirected, literally as close as I can get without copy-pasting. Mharman claimed a *passive* ability, which I can't strengthen, presumably.
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@Lunatic
as in whether my role could strengthen somebody who would otherwise be bus driven? Yeah, I can ask Cerulean.
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@Mharman
I could claim that my role makes it so that anyone I target will have their role work without interference. That would imply that you would have to be lying about your N1 results, since Wylted is flipped town who's telling results that contradict with yours, and a contradiction shouldn't be possible in that situation.
So me clarifying that my strengthener wouldn't have stopped interference with a passive ability shows I'm not going for a mislynch if you're town.
anyway, still backreading through past DPs, will get some thoughts up tmrw
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
Thoughts on the above post?
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Also, btw, if I'm scum I just claim a more powerful version of strengthener to make it look like Mharman had to be lying about his results and secure a winning mislynch. The only way I can reasonably be scum here is if I'm teammates with Mharman, which is... something I suppose.
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Luna's justification almost feels a bit too straightforward? Idk, I'm not scumreading it, but it just pinged me in comparison to my own justification and a lot of the others, including the flipped players.
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whiteflame's role has some slight overlap with Casey, but anything is possible in a UPick.
Waiting on Pie here, I suppose. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be getting any mechanical clears in this setup, just things suggestive of them.
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Paraphrasing my role, it says that it will prevent an ability from being redirected or roleblocked. Given that Mharman claimed his ability is passive, I don't think it would have been affected. It also might imply the existence of a JOAT/redirector/roleblocker in the game.
This feels tricky. I have reasons, both behavioral and mechanical, to townread almost anyone. I'll take some time to look back through the DPs tonight.
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@Mharman
PARALLAX by TheFatRat
"We Won't Give In"
Since the album tells a story about someone battling against evil and deciding to stand their ground, I'm the Strengthener. Non-consecutive probs thrown in for balance purposes.
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I don't scumread Mharman, I think it's likely that some sort of mechanical messing around occurred.
We need fullclaims from Luna and Pie.
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I'm non-consecutive strengthener. Nonconsecutive means I can't target the same player twice in a row, not that I can't act two nights in a row (idk why Cerulean made it this way).
I hinted at this pretty heavily DP2. I targeted Mharman N1 and Luna N2. Mharman because I townread him, Luna because I had the feeling he was softing a strong PR.
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smh just when I had time to get into the DP...
I'll reread overnight. Hopefully Wylted flips scum, otherwise I have a lot of questions for Mharman tomorrow.
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yeah wylted is probs scum. let's take the day to discuss the partner tho
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@Mharman
I visited you last night and used my action because I townread you. Won't say more than that for now.
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@WyIted
I did not visit Casey.
Kinda busy tonight, will give my updated thoughts tomorrow. I don't have any useful mechanical info.
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@Mharman
Do you have any mechanical info which suggests Wylted being scum?
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If I die tonight, my legacy is pretty clear, just listen to it, I was killed for a reason.
Otherwise, see you around tmrw.
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Not the worst outcome but his lack of self-preservation is pretty blatantly town.
I'm going to look pretty dumb if he flips scum but there'd be no reason for me to keep calling him town at this point tbh.
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ok 8 minutes left, class just finished, catching up now.
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Anyway I gtg leave for classes, might not be back before deadline.
WF > Earth > GP > Wylted > others > no lynch. Don't no lynch please.
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@Mharman
It's one of the most common ways for mods to implement anticlaim that I've seen elsewhere. Fwiw I think it's less likely here since it'd be considered borderline bastard on DART, so maybe one of the less severe penalties instead.
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I think I get what Wylted is saying.
I do not want to lynch him today, I think what he's going for is simply a bad play as scum and is not playing for his own survival.
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@Mharman
Generally, the mafia team submits a post containing a claim, and depending on the setup and the degree of information (role info almost always counts for more than character or flavor info), the player who gets "anticlaimed" can be:-rolecopped-roleblocked (most common, usually for partial claims)-killed (pretty common way to punish full claims)-strongman killed (less common, usually in role madness games with lots of town protective roles)
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@Casey_Risk
Wylted doesn't SOP claim roles iirc, I remember a game where he was Miller and fakeclaimed VT.
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You should probably only claim if you're 100% going to get lynched, at least then even if you get nightkilled via anticlaim then you're dying anyway and town can use the lynch on someone who's actually scum.
I was mostly referring to not casually claiming for no reason like I've seen here.
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@Greyparrot
I don't think it's flipless. The exact wording of my pm says my death and role won't be revealed until the end of the next day...maybe it will say i am lynched but not killed??
I mean, that makes sense. You say it won't reveal your death, is that specifically what it says? That seems weird.
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I don't think I'll be voting [Casey, Mharman, Pie] today.
Leaving... [GP, WF, Earth, Luna, Wylted].
I'm clear on my policy in regards to inactives, so not Luna, and I have a slight TR on Wylted, at the very least more than several other players.
[GP, WF, Earth] is where I'm looking for now.
GP's claim reads as slightly towny, some of the specific aspects feel a bit too strange to be made up and seem like something that a mod not used to traditional DART roles might put in, rather than what a player used to traditional DART roles would fake. That doesn't entirely sound coherent, but what I'm trying to say is:
A Treestump that remains flipless is something that's very rarely seen on DART. I have made one, but GP wasn't playing in that game and I doubt he was spectating. But Treestump is a common role on MU and a lot of other site metas which I presume Cerulean is familiar with.
So I'm just not sure where GP would have gotten that idea from. (I mean, he could have gotten it from me if we're both scum, but I know that's not true)
His behavior bothers me though, it feels deliberately evasive.
I've given my thoughts on WF. It's a bit harsh to say he's in his scum meta, but he definitely hasn't left it. His passivity bothers me to an extent, as does his main push seemingly being a reaction to GP scumreading him, which at best is NAI.
It's also pingy, from a thread point of view, that there's been so little focus on him even when I brought him up several times.
Earth is... meh. I had a slight townlean but that's mostly disappeared. He could flip scum, he could flip town.
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@ILikePie5
I’m not inactive by choice. I have a problem with Earth right now. Haven’t seen anything from him at all, and he likes to lay low as scum if I remember correctly. He didn’t even bother responding to my vote on him, and goes straight into “I want Wylted’s claim” joining you and GP in the wagon. It’s hella opportunistic
That does bother me a bit, it feels somewhat abrupt.
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@Greyparrot
what do you think of post 177?
From my own experience running UPicks and other themed games, I'd often stretch a justification or make a loose one in order to put in a role I wanted. I wouldn't read too much into it, especially considering how broad the entire concept of an album is.
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