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@BrotherDThomas
Honestly, this ethang guys a bit of a laugh. As you said, the reason he won't debate is because any voter with average IQ will be able to see through his ruse of non sequiturs.
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Why do people who have near death experiences recite different versions of the afterlife? Why do Christians see Jesus? Why do Hindus's see Brahma. Why do Islams see Allah? If Islam was true (hypothetically) why would a Christian facing a near death experience see Jesus, not Allah?
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@ethang5
Have a look at out conversation, and you'll see just how silly you are.
BONES: Not my fault your a pussy.Your sexual proclivities are of no interest to me.I know your a horney mf and you don't get pussy, but not everything is about sex.And yet you're the one talking about horny, pussy, and sex.I mean, I called you pussy, cited the definition of "a person who is scared or lame af" (nothing to do with sex), and you unfoundedly stated "your sexual proclivities are of no interest to me". Who's the one who mentioned sex first? Not me, I just said that you're lame. Why the connection to sex, albeit the provided definition? Because you're a horeny mf is why.And yet you're the one talking about horny, pussy, and sex.
Saying the same thing twice isn't going to help you. I know you're backed in a corner and it's tough, but just admit it and everything will be alright.
I mean, I called you pussy,...Lol. But I'm the horney mf making everything about sex?
With the above, we see that you are the one bringing sex in. Who mentioned sex? Not me. The horeny one did though.
Oh yes it's your duty.We can chose our duty. Someone has to deal with trash.
Yeah you are a true garbage man that sounds about right.
Well, I think your time on the internet since the 90's has withered you into an "idiot and troll" yourself.If you think so, it must be true. Doesn't change the fact that I will be here for you Homer.
I don't know who Homer is, must be some boomer joke.
It's your choice, you've already dodged a debate, so I won't be surprised if you disappear from their thread.You'd be relieved too, but I'm serious.
Serious about dodging lmao.
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@ethang5
...you don't have many fans around here.Lol. Yeah. That's why I'm here. For fans. You have a self-esteem problem Homer.
I mean you obviously don't get much attention elsewhere.
I'm surprised you know how to spell omniscience.Huh. Maybe your omniscience is as bad as your typing.
Haha got me there.
I know your a horney mf and you don't get pussy, but not everything is about sex.And yet you're the one talking about horny, pussy, and sex.
I mean, I called you pussy, cited the definition of "a person who is scared or lame af" (nothing to do with sex), and you unfoundedly stated "your sexual proclivities are of no interest to me". Who's the one who mentioned sex first? Not me, I just said that you're lame. Why the connection to sex, albeit the provided definition? Because you're a horeny mf is why.
I mean, why do you keep replying then?Besides the fact that I like idiots and trolls? It's my job to deal with doofuses like you. No one else wants to.
Oh yes it's your duty. Well, I think your time on the internet since the 90's has withered you into an "idiot and troll" yourself.
Your a senior citizen arguing with some dude. Come on now, don't you have papers to read?Would you like me to stop?
I mean, we're talking about you not me. It's your choice, you've already dodged a debate, so I won't be surprised if you disappear from their thread.
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@ethang5
Ok, so then I am like a cripple then, if besting me is like besting a cripple.Does making yourself a victim cause emotional satisfaction?No I'm just clarifying your words. First you called me a cripple, then you said you didn't. Which is it?Is it a paid position?First your poor reading comprehension made you think I called you a cripple, then when I said I didn't, you pretended to be obtuse.Corrected for ya!
The king of non sequitur strikes again! We're talking about me here, not you, we all know you're crippled.
I mean word on the street is that you said you wouldn't come back. I wish that were the case.What you mean is to lie. It's ok Bones. Liars are a dime a dozen on the net.
Nope, word on the street is word on the street. In case you didn't realise, you don't have many fans around here.
It's kinda sad that you think this is begging. Obviously you haven't seen the real world. Being stuck behind the computer tends to do that to you.Your omniscience is more impressive than your typing.
I'm surprised you know how to spell omniscience.
Not my fault your a pussy.Your sexual proclivities are of no interest to me.
I know your a horney mf and you don't get pussy, but not everything is about sex.
Is that your specialty now is it?Always has been. I've got a long line of "bones" in the gutters behind me.
Is your stupidity that contagious?
Well from your track record, you're poor at debating, you're poor at insulting, you're poor at hiding. What reason do I have to believe that you are a specialty at anything?That hook in your nose forcing you to follow me around begging me to grant you attention.
I mean, why do you keep replying then?
I have never blocked anyone. I don't tire. I don't get angry. I can't be goaded or frustrated. You can't shame or trick me. I am a professional.
A professional at dodging morelike. You don't tire? That just adds to the stubbornness.
Been on the net since '93.
Back in your day it was black and white. Honestly, this isn't a flex. Your a senior citizen arguing with some dude. Come on now, don't you have papers to read?
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@ethang5
You're the biggest boomer if you don't know what a streak is.
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@ethang5
Ok, so then I am like a cripple then, if besting me is like besting a cripple.Does making yourself a victim cause emotional satisfaction?
No I'm just clarifying your words. First you called me a cripple, then you said you didn't. Which is it?
Why do you think I'm a liberal? I'm a keen watcher of Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder.You think that makes you not a liberal?
Give me one reason why I'm a liberal.
My "powerlessness" against you is akin to a man's "powerlessness" towards a buried corpseHow many times did you dig up your corpse?
^^when a boomer tries to be funny.
You "died" after you got banned for months and vowed to never come back. Guess who's back with their tail between their legs? Couldn't stay away could you?I never vowed to "never come back". You're just so desperate and dishonest you think lying will score you status points. Of course you're one of those needy people who think membership on a backwater site is sooo desirable. You assume it is to me also.
I mean word on the street is that you said you wouldn't come back. I wish that were the case.
You're a living specimenLol. You're still begging me to debate you.
It's kinda sad that you think this is getting. Obviously you haven't seen the real world. Being stuck behind the computer tends to do that to you.
If it takes a 100 years to sink through your thick skull, you will get it eventually. And I'll be here for you all the way.
Not my fault your a pussy. Clearly, if you think I am begging you to debate you then you are really misinterpreting me.
Bones: Debate me
Ethang: No, you cripple
Bones: Ok debate me if I'm a cripple
Ethang: No
Bones: Stop hiding
Ethang: You'll find me
Bones: Ok I've found you, debate me
Ethang: No
This is the situation we are in. Do I want to debate you? Yes. Why? To prove that you're a fraud who yapps away with his BS.
...the only life you have is delivering poor insults in religious forums...Then thank you for affording me a life by coming back time and time again to be "insulted". I specialize in trolls and bullies. I will be here for you.
Is that your specialty now is it? Well from your track record, you're poor at debating, you're poor at insulting, you're poor at hiding. What reason do I have to believe that you are a specialty at anything?
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@Stephen
@BrotherDThomas
If Ethang ever steps out of line or misbehaves, send this to him as a reminder of his cowardliness.
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@ethang5
Bones: Debate me
Ethang: No, you cripple
Bones: Ok debate me if I'm a cripple
Ethang: No
Bones: Stop hiding
Ethang: You'll find me
Bones: Ok I've found you, debate me
Ethang: No
Which one do you think I am doing?What I think you're doing is irrelevant. You are begging. The answer is still no.
Ok.
Obviously, as you provided this as a reason for why you do not want to debate me, then the cripple is me!Or that besting you would be LIKE besting a cripple.
Ok, so then I am like a cripple then, if besting me is like besting a cripple.
But as liberals love being victims, knock yourself out.
Not a liberal.
...the membership can observe your cowardly behaviour.Liberals always think what's important to them is similarly important to others.
Why do you think I'm a liberal? I'm a keen watcher of Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder.
People like you are powerless against me precisely because I couldn't care less about status or what strangers think about me.
My "powerlessness" against you is akin to a man's "powerlessness" towards a buried corpse. Neither can do anything to a being who's already at the bottom of the barrel.
Dead people lie in soil.Some people lie in their posts.
You "died" after you got banned for months and vowed to never come back. Guess who's back with their tail between their legs? Couldn't stay away could you?
Wow my feelings are hurt why would you say this to me.I never lie to save the feelings of snowflakes. If you're gonna be on a public board, grow a thicker skin.
You would know about having thick skin, I've never seen someone who simultaneously talks smack and is yet a little hiding mouse. You're a living specimen.
At least I have a mum's shoulder to cry on.Now, go cry on her shoulder, mine are soggy from your begging tears.
If you think what I'm doing is begging, then you have never seen the world. The world where homeless people really beg. The world where political prisoners really beg. But then again, the only life you have is delivering poor insults in religious forums, albeit a deserving, lengthy ban.
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WHY DID GOD FAIL TO TELL JESUS' MOTHER OF HER SON'S CRUEL & VIOLENT DEMISE?
I know. Because Jesus needed "free will" to overcome "hardships" to become the true "messiah", meaning that God was completely okay with watching his son get tortured to death, because this simply a "test of character". Don't ask me what part of getting nails stuck through your arm is a test of you "inner goodness" though.
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@ethang5
Begging" is a bit strong.Multiple posts after I've told you your examples are asinine? Begging is understatement.
Which one do you think I am doing? If you really think this is begging, your range of vocabulary is shocking.
Besting a cripple" - Ethang5 when referring to Bones. Is this a sign of Alzheimer's?Analogy. Look it up. "The plane flew like a bird" does not mean the plane is being called a bird.
False Analogy. When one says "the plane flew like a bird" they obviously do not mean that the plane is a bird, they are referring to the similarities between. However, consider your statement (paraphrased over multiple posts you made)
"Bones [when you tagged me], I do not want to debate you [subject/point of contention] because besting a cripple is nothing to brag about [reason]"
it is clear that the "plane and bird" analogy is not relevant. It is clear that, unlike your post, besting a cripple is in fact nothing to brag about, it isn't some airly comparison like "oh the bird soared like a plane". A statement such as "besting a cripple is nothing to brag about" is true and without need of interpretations.
I don't think you'll understand this, so I'll dumb it down a bit.
Bones: Debate me
Ethang: No
Bones: Why
Ethang: Besting a cripple is not funny
Besting a cripple? Who's the cripple? Obviously, as you provided this as a reason for why you do not want to debate me, then the cripple is me!
Like I said, your hiding skills are as bad as you're debating skillsSeeing as I have not debated, you're right. Though how you know is a mystery.
No you have debated, it's just you took an L.
I mean you've lost via full forfeiture...So your win ratio is now 7? Lol.
When have I said my win ratio is 7? This is the pinnacle of non sequiturs.
I just love debating cocky noobs. Love it.You seem obsessed. No matter, it will eventually sink into your ample cranium that your goading is useless.
No worries, the membership can observe your cowardly behaviour. I just want to debate you because you're a loud, cocky and misinformed theist who thinks they are correct, and I would love to give you a reality check.
I had your mum begging.My mum is dead. But say hello for me if you speak to her again.
Dead people lie in soil.
The challenge is right in front of you buddy.Wrestling a mental cripple would not be a challenge for me Shemp.
Wow my feelings are hurt why would you say this to me. At least I have a mum's shoulder to cry on.
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@ethang5
I'm not the one ducking and dodging.You're the one begging and claiming not to care.
"Begging" is a bit strong. Just like how a boxer would love to fight a hater, I would like to debate you. Nothing but some exciting face off's.
No, I don't think so.Then why do you keep lying that I called you a cripple?
"Besting a cripple" - Ethang5 when referring to Bones. Is this a sign of Alzheimer's?
..and when asked to debate you run and hide.And yet you always know where to find me.
Like I said, your hiding skills are as bad as you're debating skills.
I mean you've lost via full forfeiture...So your win ratio is now 7? Lol.
Your maths is as bad as your debating which is as bad as your hiding.
...to a rapper who doesn't care about debating.You've been chasing and begging me to debate you on multiple posts. But you don't care? Dart wouldn't be big enough to contain your spam if you did care.
Begging? Come on now, let's not blow this out of scale. I just love debating cocky noobs. Love it.
...Statistically, I am infinitely better than you at debating.And yet it's you begging me.
I had your mum begging.
Silly me I've got my facts wrong! This makes your job of proving me wrong to be even easier!So easy it would be akin to wrestling a cripple. I prefer challenges.
I know it's easy to wrestle a cripple, but I still want to debate you, regardless of whether it's a challenge. I know you're scared, it's okay. In fact, the first time you debated, you got so scared you full forfeited!
Also, I'm open to yet another debate topic if you want.Of course you are.
Wow this is your comeback? I've backed you into a corner and your resposne is "oh yes but I want a challenge". The challenge is right in front of you buddy.
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@ethang5
Wouldn't say I'm a liberal.You wouldn't say your examples are infantile either.
No I wouldn't, I'm not the one ducking and dodging.
I just find it funny how you pull up strong calling me a cripple,...Do dumb examples make you a cripple?
To be a cripple is to disabled or deficient in a specified manner. No, I don't think so.
..and when asked to debate you run and hide.And yet you always know where to find me.
I mean, you hide but you're very good at like, among other things.
Sure, run away, I don't really care,...Your multiple posts begging me to notice you prove that.
I just like smashing noobs and it would be a pity not to deliver on you.
But as I'm such a degenerate cripple, debating me could give your not-so-healthy W/L ratio a little CPR.One wonders how bloated your ego would be if you'd won more than 6 debates against non-noobs.
I mean you've lost via full forfeiture to a rapper who doesn't care about debating. Statistically, I am infinitely better than you at debating. Also, tell me when I mentioned my 6 win streak?
You think Jesus told followers to mutilate themselves, and you wonder why I find you intellectually unworthy to debate, or why I would not want to debate such silliness
Silly me I've got my facts wrong! This makes your job of proving me wrong to be even easier!
Also, I'm open to yet another debate topic if you want.
THBT: Jesus encouraged his followers to mutilate parts of themselves to avoid hell.
You down? Down on your feet running for a hideout likely.
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@ethang5
Perhaps this topic is a bit too specific for you. Would you like to go big and debate the existence of God with me? I have no problem with that either.
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@ethang5
You obviously have time for nonsense.
I mean you're the guy who flexed how active they are on this cite, so it would appear that you have some time to juggle.
Knock yourself out, you may be a blazing liberal
Wouldn't say I'm a liberal.
but you will learn that I don't have to do what you want and I don't care how you feel about it.
I mean sure, I agree you can do what you want. I just find it funny how you pull up strong calling me a cripple, and when asked to debate you run and hide. Where's the vibrato you brought in? Sure, run away, I don't really care, it's not my public image that's being dragged through mud. But as I'm such a degenerate cripple, debating me could give your not-so-healthy W/L ratio a little CPR.
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@BrotherDThomas
Poor ol' ethang5, whereas if he actually had a pair of "big boy pants" to debate you, and to make it fair for him, you would have to give him 20 plus votes to begin with!
Obviously he doesn't. I haven't known him for a long time, and he's already prepared to say that I'm "crippled", but from his keen avoidance to debate me, I can conclude that he's another one of those guys who spew their gish gallop with no substance.
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@ethang5
Wait. It'll come to you.
Accept the challenge I don't have time for your nonsense.
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@ethang5
You best believe I'll give you contradictions when you accept the debate.Pack a toothbrush. You'll give me a sensible example before I'll determine if you're worth the effort.
I will now will I? The classical "oh you're not worth my time" cop out. Nothing I haven't heard before. Either you accept this debate and we battle this out (should be easy since I'm a cripple), or you're a coward who's only good when he's with his herd of theists in the forum. Make your pick.
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@Stephen
Challenge sent. Will you run or will you fight?Don't hold your breath. He can't cope in an environment where he cannot flat out deny what is actually written in the bible, tell lies or rewrite scripture.. And has to produce citations.
I mean if I had his W/L ratio I wouldn't want to debate either.
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@ethang5
just give me a sensible contradiction.
You best believe I'll give you contradictions when you accept the debate. I have no intention of going back and forth with you in the forums. A debate environment doesn't allow for you to gish gallop and throw personal attacks.
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@ethang5
I'll live knowing that you are just another forum theist who hides in their pack, who when is faced with a challenge, cowers. Just another one of them then.It wasn't a challenge, but not to worry, I'll lose the appropriate amount of sleep over it.
I know it wasn't a challenge, you don't' have enough balls to ever challenge someone.
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@ethang5
If I'm such a fool, accept the challenge! Just one click away from proving that I am a sham, fraudulent, misled, stupid, crippled atheist.I have no interest in proving you a sham, fraudulent, misled, stupid, crippled atheist. Why would I?
I mean you're the one who called me a cripple. Make no mistake, I've encountered many people like you. The "oh I do not have time to prove your sham". Roughly translates to "shi*t I've been challenged, run run run".
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@ethang5
I assume that's a no to the challenge then. Pity. You've certainly done the talking but not much walking from you.You'll live.
I'll live knowing that you are just another forum theist who hides in their pack, who when is faced with a challenge, cowers. Just another one of them then.
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@ethang5
I don't think I know Bones either,
Then why are you so quick to call me a cripple? Meanie.
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@ethang5
If I'm such a fool, accept the challenge! Just one click away from proving that I am a sham, fraudulent, misled, stupid, crippled atheist.
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@ethang5
Should be a very easy win for your not-so-healthy win loss ratio then!Besting a cripple is not really a boasting point.
Yeah I know, but I still want to debate you, regardless of your mental "crippleness".
I can call upon some atheists to see what they think.You think Stephen and DeeDee are reasonable? Lol!
I mean Stephen knows the bible better than you,and Brother is a better theist than you so I'm not too sure what's so funny.
Sure, let's be sensible.That would be nice for a change.
I know, you won't be used to this, but hey, experience for all.
Let's do this in a debate environment, where our win/loss is on steak and where our feud is on public display.I have no "feuds" with you.
Calling me a cripple seems to allude to some dislike for me.
You've done your talking. You've called me ludicrous child. But can you can you walk the walk?I did not call you a ludicrous child, I said your list of contradictions, which predate you, were the most ludicrous and childish interpretations of biblical verses.
Still talking?
I'll send you a challenge.Sorry, I still cannot take you seriously, your "contradictions" lack common sense. Since I cannot believe you're that stupid, my only recourse is to believe you aren't being honest.
If all that it takes to beat me is "common sense" this should be the easiest debate of your life!
I assume that's a no to the challenge then. Pity. You've certainly done the talking but not much walking from you.
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@ethang5
Challenge sent. Will you run or will you fight?
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@ethang5
@Stephen
@BrotherDThomas
Sorry Bones, I simply cannot take your claims seriously
Should be a very easy win for your not-so-healthy win loss ratio then!
I do not debate flat earthers
Sorry I'm not a Christian, if that's what you are alluding to.
Either way, no reasonable person buys their hogwash anyway, not even atheists.
I can call upon some atheists to see what they think.
Now, if you have something sensible, we can talk. Otherwise, you and your agenda will remain unmolested by me.
Sure, let's be sensible. Let's do this in a debate environment, where our win/loss is on steak and where our feud is on public display.
I'll send you a challenge. You've done your talking. You've called me ludicrous child. But can you can you walk the walk?
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@ethang5
Do you want to debate or are you just going to talk your talk?
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@ethang5
As we see, whenever a supposed Bible "contradiction" is claimed, and the Christian offers a resolution, the atheist simply oozes to yet another supposed "contradiction". Why don't they ever hash out the original claim?
Timid your back! Check this out.
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@Intelligence_06
I wish I could have 1M subs on YouTube.
Granted. However, your 1 million subscriber is nothing to celebrate. You used to have tens of millions of subscribers but faced a downfall similar to that of James Charles, and lose over 95 percent of your subscribers.
I wish I am able to control other people's minds.
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DDO super villain vs the new(ish) guy on a secret topic, moderated by whiteflame. Live on Saturday at 11 pm EST. To access, use the following link.
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@DebateArt.com
Perhaps instead of a question format, it could be more like categories for people to fill out, similar to that on debate.org. For example instead of
What is your favourite music?
it could just be
Favourite music:
I feel that this way, the site will be cleaner will be more consistent with the rest of the profile customisations on debateart. Also, I've said this before but moving profile pictures will be cool.
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@Tradesecret
Like you said, Atheism is not a world view, so obviously it is not a structure for morality. If you want a world view, adopt some world view, such as Sam Harris' moral landscape. Also, like Edge said, everyone gets their morality from an unknown source, and internal compass. You chose the bible because it aligns with this compass.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What do you think of the person in your example identifying themselves as Japanese as their national heritage? (the way I identify as American despite some of my ancestors being from Germany)?
I would have no problems with them saying that they are ethnically Japanese. Recall, race includes phenotypic characteristics such as skin color, whereas ethnicity encompasses cultural factors such as nationality, tribal affiliation, religion, language and traditions of a particular group. Just like how you say you are ethnically American, I am fine with out hypothetical subject saying they are ethnically Japanese. The issue comes if one begins saying things like "racially, genetically, phenotypically, I am Japanese" despite the contrary being obviously true is where the issue comes from.
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@Nyxified
I rambled on a little so feel free to take your time and paraphrase what I have said if you wish.
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Problem 3: Supervenience
Bones: On the othehand, the term gender is irreducible to physical facts. Gender is reliant on social and cultural factors when determining whether one is male, female or other. These factors are wholly unquantifiable and subjective. How can one distinguish themselves as absolutely “male”, “female” or “other” using subjective factors with it actually having coherent value? To say that something is “more X”, “less X”, “X but not Y” one needs to *demonstrate a method with which he/she/other can determine the value of X*.Nyxified: I wonder why that could be? Maybe it's that gender is a personal experience/identifier that is shaped by one's own experience and perception no different from how any other aspects of their identity or personality are? They are no more 'subjective' than saying "I'm lazy." The lack of objectivity is meaningless. There's not supposed to be objectivity behind an identity, and what the identities mean are subject to change based on the opinion of the one identifying as such. You can't simultaneously argue that gender is subjective (which I agree with) and say that because sex chromosomes are objective and some experts view them as meaning something about sex or gender (which is a professional, subjective opinion) that being trans doesn't make sense. This explanation is probably bad (I am rushing), but I'll try to go into more detail later.
Perhaps I didn't convey my point very well (semperfortis is levels above my intelligence), so I'll try and simplify it for both our sake.
Normally, concepts have properties that they instantiate in reality. For example, the concept of an apple is, typically, a red pome fruit. Therefore, something is an ‘apple’ in reality, if it is both ‘red’ and is a ‘pome fruit’. This is similar to classes and instantiation in object oriented programming. A concept that has no real properties, is an internally inconsistent concept, for example, something “north of the north pole”, or a “squared circle”.
When we speak of a concept’s properties we tend to divide them into “primary” and “secondary” properties. A primary property is an objective feature of the world. For example, a primary property of a t-shirt would be that it is made of cotton wool. Secondary properties are that which are ungrounded and are mindful, for example colour, temperature, mass, smell etc.
Secondary properties (what I initially referred to as B-Properties) supervene on primary properties (also known as A-properties). For instance, temperature equates to a B-Property supervening on the A-Property that is particle vibration. B-properties change if and only if A-Properties are changed; you increase the vibration of the particles (add energy to the system), the temperature changes.
For us to talk reasonably of an entity, its primary essence ought to be described. Secondary properties, don’t actually describe anything about an entity’s essence. For example, to state that x is 100 degrees, the fact that it is 100 degrees doesn’t establish any primary essence of x. However, if x were water, now we have a primary essence, that is a collection of molecularly bonded hydrogen and oxygen atoms that are 100 degrees in temperature. It is similarly akin to stating that entity x is 100 kilograms, but its mass evinces no reasonable description to what entity x actually is.
Therefore, it is clear that the description of a thing cannot be comprised of purely B-properties.
Linking back to the initial point, the issue that it is impossible for “male”, “female” or “other” to supervene on “social” or “cultural” factors as these factors are not reducible to any fact about the physical world. Thus, to distinguish whether one is male, or female, or other, without any scientific (i.e biological) supervenience is absurd. Since sex supervenes on the empirical state of one’s somatic cells, it successfully supervenes on a grounded, quantifiable property. Thus, one can coherently make the distinction of “male” or “female” using the “sex” field.
Problem 4: Occam's razor cuts at gender.
As mentioned above, the term sex is sufficient in explaining our understanding of biology without the need for gender. Thus, the term gender is a mere ontological burden, of which Occam's razor does not allow. Why postulate the term gender, when sex sufficiently covers the field.Maybe it's the millions of people experiencing distress that their identity does not match with their body. You're assuming gender is designed to talk about biology in the first place, and honestly this seems hardly different from a slippery slope into biological essentialism.
I see, this makes sense. I would actually be in favour of separating the terms sex and gender, where gender acts like the term ethnicity and sex acts like the term race. However, my issue comes when transgender people assert that, post transitioning, they are biologically whatever they want. I believe that this is akin to a racially Scottish man to, after a lifetime of Japanese cultural, assert that racially, he is Japanese. I am all for this Scottish man to say that ethnically he is Japanese, but racially, he is Scottish.
Bones: "The thing which transgender ideologists do is that they create the term gender and assert that it takes precedence over the biologically grounded term, sex. However, if this is accepted, this can be done to any field of identification. Take the example I used above, that is, a genetically non-African asserting that they are in fact black. At the current stage, there is no construct version for the term race, but let’s postulate the term “rase”. Unlike it’s cousin, “rase” is not based on biology, it is completely in the mind and has no bearing on one's physical build. Would it then be sensible for me to assert that I, from this point on deny the factual term race, and opt to identify myself through rase. Also, I want everyone else to buy into this term rase, and pretend that I am whatever race that I want to be, PS not doing so denies me of my humanity. "Nyxified: If we could establish that someone could identify as a race that does not match their physical race, that they experience distress because of this, that it is alleviated significantly when they transition to another race, and that they can actually become a race that differs from the one they were at birth, then yeah, transracialism would make sense.
I suppose this is just a fundamental point we disagree with. I don't believe that, no matter how much distress you are in, if you want to become black you can just erase your ancestry and do so. I am all for this person saying "culturally, and ethnically I am African" but to say that your race has magically changed? That's a bit too far.
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@Nyxified
Problem 1: Change your mind?
Bones: It sounds silly, but if gender has no bearing on physical biology and concerns only one's mind, surely it is easier to just change your mind.Nyxified: Please believe that millions of us have tried and millions who hate us have tried twice as hard, and yet, it hasn't worked. I don't think I have to link citations to say that conversion therapy, including conversion therapy for trans people, doesn't work. Period. If it was so easy to just 'change my mind', I would've done it, and for 14 years, I tried. I'm not exactly interested in a life of discrimination from transphobes, and I'm certainly not looking forward to the medical expenses either, but I wasn't given the option.
But then surely if you cannot change your mind, then it is a biological issue. What is the point of defining gender as something which has bearing on biology, and then using biological phenomenons to justify the word? It seems that either
a) gender is in the mind so you can just change your mind
b) gender is not in the mind silly ideas like "change your mind" won't work, as the issue is more firmly grounded in science.
I wholeheartedly agree that trans people aren't merely some attention seeking folks. But the issue I have is that they propose gender is in the mind, when it is very clear that there are "issues" in the biological wiring of trans people. (I'm not trying to be transphobic, but clearly someone who thinks they are a boy when they are a girl has, at best some small issue. After all, it would be much better for everyone if a trans female was born as a female)
Problem 2: How do you know you are meant to be your chosen gender?
Bones: Picture the following. Since my childhood, I have always said that I am a native African (disclaimer I am not black). I have always felt “wrong”, in that my mind does not coincide with my body. For some reason, I just feel black. No doubt some of you hard core liberals would be halting at this scenario. What exactly does it mean to feel black? Am I being racist? Not at all, I have the exact same question as you do. How can one feel that they are black? Surely, the only way to know how it feels like to be black is to be black? How can a non-African possibly assert that they “feel” African without even being African? How would they know what the sensation is like? How would they know that what they feel are the feelings black people? Again, if you think that I am treading on the line of racism, I am only employing the ideology of transgendered people. My question is this. How can a cis-gender man know that what they are feeling is the sensation of being a women? This seems impossible without a point of comparison, that is, experiencing being a woman.To quote the psychiatrist that diagnosed me with ADHD and recommended to my doctor I start on medication: "The best way to know for sure that you have a disorder is to see if the treatment for that disorder works."
Not necessarily. With this standard, one could easily justify things which are (I hope we agree) absolutely ridiculous such as trans-speciesism. I could easily say "I feel like I'm a crab, and getting the entire world to acknowledge this fact will make me happy". The fact is not whether the treatment is effective, it is whether the treatment is synonymous with our understanding of science. Many things will treat many other things. Allowing a wife beater to beat his wife is certainly allowing him to do what he wants, but obviously this is not the best option that there is.
Nyxified: We can talk about gender, about how it coincides with identity, what it feels like, non-western ideas of gender, all that stuff, but that's a bit too complicated for me to write as I'm low-key behind schedule going to the bank, eheh. What we know for certain is that there are people who experience distress at looking like, sounding like, being considered as, and being expected to act as their sociocultural environment would expect from the gender that they themselves do not align with.
I'm not denying that there is some issue present, but distress is and has never been a reason to adjust science. If transgendered people are feeling distress, and transitioning helps them (I am dubious, but I'll have to look into this more) then maybe transitioning can be used as therapeutic. As a compromise, for the sake of ease, a case could be made for acknowledging transgender persons gender in social situations, but to say that in terms of biology, a man can literally become a women if they want seems to be objectively false.
Nyxified: You can know that the pain you're experiencing is the pain of being a gender you're not when you start being the gender you are and the pain goes away.
Like I said, I completely get the pain which transgender people undergo and as I stated above, I am all for making their lives easier in social situations. What I would be hesitant in doing is rewriting what I would consider simple biology. Though it is difficult to pin a single characteristic which binds all men together and all women together, simply due to the existence of mutations and deformities, that isn't to say that there are no difference between men and women.
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@RationalMadman
These were ruder than my other thing and I think this was cringier too.
I think being straight up and blunt is what makes these fun. I would love to see another thread like this in the future. Seems fun.
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@Intelligence_06
We need more clear definitions on what makes a person ethnically Japanese.
There is nothing constituting what makes a gene or a trait "Japanese" except for that many Japanese people have them, which is still dependent on the social structure, or that which people live in which piece of land.
Sure, there are abnormal cases, but to say that there is absolutely no way of identifying a Japanese from a Scottish guy is simply absurd. With this level of skepticism, I could argue for trans-speciesism on the basis that there is no universe characteristic of which all people possess. Whilst determining a single factor which all people have in common is difficult, that isn't to say that there is absolutely no way for one to identify a lobster from a human being.
I can take this one step further and bring in trans-speciesism if you like. Can I, as a homosapien, create a new term, let's call it speeshees (as opposed to species), and say that now I am actually an elephant?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
So you do think a pale white boy who's had 30 generations of Scottish genes instilled into him can claim that he is actually ethnically Japanese?If he was raised in Japan then yeah sure, if not then I think it would be silly for him to say that.
But being raised in Japanese doesn't change that fact this guy has no ancestry connection with the Japanese.I can take this one step further and bring in trans-speciesism if you like. Can I, as a homosapien, create a new term, let's call it speeshees (as opposed to species), and say that now I am actually an elephant?
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@Intelligence_06
So you do think a pale white boy who's had 30 generations of Scottish genes instilled into him can claim that he is actually ethnically Japanese?
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I've never been convinced by the arguments posed by trans ideologists but have never really thought it out carefully and typed it down, black and white. If the following is slightly rambled, well that's the reason this is a forum and not a debate. View this simply as a post where I let loose my fingers and say whatever I want.
Problem 1: Change your mind?
It is commonly asserted that gender and sex occupy different spheres. Whilst the term sex refers to biological attributes, gender is often said to be a social construct of which is in the mind. If this were the case, then why couldn’t one just change their mind? It sounds silly, but if gender has no bearing on physical biology and concerns only one's mind, surely it is easier to just change your mind. At this stage, ideologists usually say “no but XY&Z studies show that trans people have XY&Z similarities to their chosen gender”, which completely misses the point, as referencing studies conducted on the physical body no longer deals with gender, it has moved the conversation onto the realms of biology.
Problem 2: How do you know you are meant to be your chosen gender?
Picture the following. Since my childhood, I have always said that I am a native African (disclaimer I am not black). I have always felt “wrong”, in that my mind does not coincide with my body. For some reason, I just feel black. No doubt some of you hard core liberals would be halting at this scenario. What exactly does it mean to feel black? Am I being racist? Not at all, I have the exact same question as you do. How can one feel that they are black? Surely, the only way to know how it feels like to be black is to be black? How can a non-African possibly assert that they “feel” African without even being African? How would they know what the sensation is like? How would they know that what they feel are the feelings black people? Again, if you think that I am treading on the line of racism, I am only employing the ideology of transgendered people. My question is this. How can a cis-gender man know that what they are feeling is the sensation of being a women? This seems impossible without a point of comparison, that is, experiencing being a woman.
Problem 3: Supervenience (scientific mumbo jumbo borrowed and paraphrased from semperfortis’ debate)
As aforementioned, the term sex is scientifically precise. he distinction between male and females rely on the genotype of the somatic cells. Simply, those who possess somatic cells with XX genotypes are female, and those with XY are male. Thus, the notion of “sex” is reducible to facts grounded in the physical world.
It could be argued that intersex people can’t coherently align with either “male” or “female” which could seem problematic for this position. However, it is a misconception that intersex are neither male nor female; let’s examine the types of intersex:
i) 46, XX DSD
This is where the person possesses the chromosomes of a woman, but the external genitalia appears male. Obviously, one with this form of intersex can still be deemed female.
ii) 46, XY DSD
iii) 46, XX ovotesticular DSD
Here is where more of a compelling argument can be made; as a person with this form is born with both ovarian and testicular tissue; and can even have both XX and XY chromosomes. However, per the definition of sexes provided, the genotype only applies to “somatic cells” which do not include reproductive cells.
iv) Sex chromosome DSD
On the othehand, the term gender is irreducible to physical facts. Gender is reliant on social and cultural factors when determining whether one is male, female or other. These factors are wholly unquantifiable and subjective. How can one distinguish themselves as absolutely “male”, “female” or “other” using subjective factors with it actually having coherent value? To say that something is “more X”, “less X”, “X but not Y” one needs to *demonstrate a method with which he/she/other can determine the value of X*.
In science, observations are reducible; for example, if we were to analyse the temperature of a closed system, we would find that temperature is actually reducible to the vibration of particles. Thus, temperature supervenes on grounded empirical axioms (law of thermodynamics). Temperature equates to a B-Property supervening on the A-Property that is particle vibration. Indeed, to talk of the temperature of a system being 0 degrees and not 100 degrees is coherent as temperature is reducible to a quantifiable measurement grounded in the physical world.
The issue here is it is impossible for “male”, “female” or “other” to supervene on “social” or “cultural” factors as *these factors are not reducible to any fact about the physical world*. Thus, to distinguish whether one is male, or female, or other, without any scientific (i.e biological) supervenience is absurd. Since sex supervenes on the empirical state of one’s somatic cells, it successfully supervenes on a grounded, quantifiable property. Thus, one can coherently make the distinction of “male” or “female” using the “sex” field.
Problem 4: Occam's razor cuts at gender.
As mentioned above, the term sex is sufficient in explaining our understanding of biology without the need for gender. Thus, the term gender is a mere ontological burden, of which Occam's razor does not allow. Why postulate the term gender, when sex sufficiently covers the field.
Problem 5: A slope to transracialism?
The thing which transgender ideologists do is that they create the term gender and assert that it takes precedence over the biologically grounded term, sex. However, if this is accepted, this can be done to any field of identification. Take the example I used above, that is, a genetically non-African asserting that they are in fact black. At the current stage, there is no construct version for the term race, but let’s postulate the term “rase”. Unlike it’s cousin, “rase” is not based on biology, it is completely in the mind and has no bearing on one's physical build. Would it then be sensible for me to assert that I, from this point on deny the factual term race, and opt to identify myself through rase. Also, I want everyone else to buy into this term rase, and pretend that I am whatever race that I want to be, PS not doing so denies me of my humanity.
Depending on the response that I receive, I may consider turning this into a debate. Either I have completely misunderstood something very simple, or ideologists out there have really neglected simple reasoning.
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@drlebronski
your no longer worth talking to your the one of the dumbest conservatives i have ever met and that says a lot
Not necessarily that he's dumb (may be part of it, I dunno), it's just he vocalises his view and is completely reluctant in getting his mind changed, to the point where talking to him is like talking to a brick wall. Also, don't try and debate him, he's good at talking the talk but I don't think he has legs to walk. He'll just ignore because that's what walls do.
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@Dr.Franklin
Scientific evidence for warming of the climate system is unequivocal. Saying that "climate change isn't real because there aren't many bushfires" is like saying "climate change isn't real because I've become less hot over the years".
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