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I'll go into it more tomorrow, but in retrospect, I don't like the way Pie turned from thinking Owen was town to saying that he could be scum and fooling all of us, yet still not voting for him and then saying there were two scum on the wagon. His progression seems a little unnatural. I'll have to reread though.
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I'm busy so I'll explain more later, but I think Pie is likely scum.
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@Earth
If there isn't any other investigation roles, then I can only assume WF is Town.
Well, I'm also an investigative role, just a movement-based one. But yes, I agree that WF is town. I was able to read between the lines before he claimed.
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If no one else has any cop-like role that could be potentially thrown off by a Miller, then I think Whiteflame is town. Either that, or he and Earth are the scum team. I figured that WF was a cop-like role before he claimed, given that he didn't sus Earth. No one else had claimed a similar role, so if there was nothing like a Cop, Earth would have stuck out.
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@Moozer325
For now, I do want Whiteflame to claim. I want everyone’s role outed by the end of the DP, so I figured it’d better to catch people right off the bat.
Why do you want everyone to claim?
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Okay, I think it's about time for me to come clean a bit. My legacy role is indeed my status as a tree stump. After my disappearance, redundant systems were created to prevent a flight from ever completely disappearing from tracking again, and black boxes were given longer battery lives. I wanted to see if there were any interesting reactions to me not flipping, given that scum would have known they didn't actually Janitor me, but I don't think that provided anything actually useful.
The other thing I lied about is what exactly my main role does and what I did last night. I didn't Inspect Pie -- I Tracked Moozer and saw that he visited Pie. Curious to see what the reasons for this were and if he would lie about having done so, I lied a bit about what I did. I do find it a bit surprising that Moozer came clean about strengthening Pie. I don't think it was a very wise decision necessarily, but I don't think he likely would have admitted to it as scum. Pie has apparently been silenced and Banana claimed to have RB'ed him, so he could have claimed to have used his ability on anyone else. Though, it's worth noting that he and his partner may have figured out that I was lying about my role.
Suffice it to say, right now I don't want the town to lynch Whiteflame, for a particular reason. Ill leave it at that for now.
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@Cerulean
Also, point of clarification- is it correct that a lynch only happens if majority is reached? As in, if the Day ends and one wagon is leading, but doesn't have majority (just plurality), they would survive?
Generally speaking, yes, that is how it works.
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@whiteflame
@Cerulean
Whiteflame, Cerulean, I have a question for both of you. I want you both to take a step back and consider everything as objectively as possible. Who are your top scumreads right now?
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@Lunatic
EBWOP
I've been playing this game for over three months now and I'm still learning new things. What does this mean?
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@whiteflame
I'd strongly prefer to wait one more DP but, if you do need more information, I can provide specifics about what happened during the last NP on my end (which doesn't require me to full claim, though it further alludes to my role).
I have a few thoughts on the situation. Tbh, I'm still not sure how I feel about you, but there's a particular reason I'm not scumreading you as hard as Luna is right now. That being said, I would actually like to know vaguely what you did last night, since you're willing to share.
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@Lunatic
VTL Whiteflame though for the obvious bull shit “oh I couldn’t make it to vote in time ooooo”
Tbh I did also find that post where he answered a question after Owen got lynched to be pretty suspicious. It felt too showy, y'know?
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They tried to hide my body... They failed...
I am Malaysia Airlines flight 370. I am famous for the mysterious circumstances behind my disappearance. Mid-flight, I suddenly changed course for unknown reasons before disappearing forever. Because the only hard evidence behind any of the theories of my disappearance is tracking the flight route, I was an Advanced Motion Detector. Each night, I could use one of the following abilities: Motion Detector, Reporter, and Inspector. Reporter lets me see if someone acted, but not who they acted on. Inspector let me see if someone was acted on, but not who did it.
Last night, I decided to Inspect Pie and saw that he was acted on. Glad he wasn't killed, or my role would have totally gone to waste. Although I guess it could have told me that there is a ninja in the game if I saw no one visit him. Given the existence of my role, Ninja is a real possibility, so keep that in mind.
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@Owen_T
Is it possible that Moozer is a TP lyncher, thus explaining his obsession with Luna?
Austin said the "setup is standard 2v7" which would seem to imply no third parties, but I could be wrong about that. If third parties are a possibility, I can't completely write off 3P Moozer.
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@Owen_T
If Moozer is Scum he would have hammered me.
Not necessarily. Sometimes scum want to stay off a townie's wagon to seem less sus. Sometimes they inadvertently make themselves more sus by trying too hard to do so.
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@Owen_T
This is also the norm, but I don't completely understand what made my the lynch over say, Earth. He didn't have anything scummy about him but I don't think I did either.
For me, it's just two things:
- Simple Process of Elimination
- Weak Justification for your role (in my eyes)
Though, I'd have to admit that Moozer is also sus by this metric. For me, it's down to you and him rn.
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@Owen_T
1. Why have we forgotten about Earth
I haven't forgotten about him, I just don't see any particular reason to sus him other than having an SOP claim.
2. What do you all think of Moozer's views on Luna
I think he's just tunneling tbh. Luna's explanations for why he sussed Pie and not Moozer feel genuine to me, enough that he's off my radar for this DP.
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@iamanabanana
What is OMGUS someone said that earlier?
OMGUS is short for "OMG, U Suck!" It's basically just when someone accuses someone else of being scum for voting for them and little to no other reason.
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@Owen_T
We need to pick somebody here. We're running out of time. If not Moozer, then who do you suspect?
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@Owen_T
How sure are you that he made that comment?
Okay, I slightly misremembered it. It was in the UPick Endgame thread that Austin said this:
In terms of setup, I do believe that this balanced, even though it may not have seemed that way in the game. In general, I design my setups around a fundamental tenet of game design, which is "how you use your role is as important as how powerful it is." Almost every powerful town role in the game could easily have backfired. Joebob's commute could hide scum from a vig shot, while their strengthen could allow scum to have an extra-powerful NK. The neighborhood vig could have backfired (especially if scum infiltrated it), as well as the shirt.
Still, I think that it's worth keeping in mind. Having a town Roleblocker fits this design philosophy, as it can help the town by blocking a kill, or it can block an investigative role. Similar thing with a Rolestopper. And, come to think of it, a Strengthener as well, but that one feels somewhat less luck-based to me.
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@ILikePie5
Can you elaborate?
What I mean is, in the case that Banana and Luna are both town (and I feel very good about Banana being town), a scum Strengthener would actually be a logical conclusion. I'm pretty sure Austin made the comment once that his design philosophy involves making sure both sides have the ability to counteract the other -- a counteraction for every action. Given that Banana is a roleblocker, Owen is a rolestopper creator, and Luna also has something to do with blocking (unless I'm misremembering that), I think a scum strengthener would be a logical inclusion.
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@ILikePie5
Don’t forget that this is the same Owen who steamrolled town with Wylted and Barney with his fake CC. I think we give him less credit than he deserves as a player.
Maybe so, but I think a large part of the problem there is that no one really questioned a 3P BP and a Town BP existing in the same game nearly as much as we should have.
What are your thoughts on a Scum Strengthener?
Given that Banana and Luna are both town, it's a possibility I can't ignore. I can see Moozer being honest about his role but not his character.
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@whiteflame
Owen is a tougher one. His role claim has, essentially, two distinct points of confirmation: the inventor giving out items and the legacy role acting as messenger.
I don't think the messenger part really counts for anything seeing as it only activates after death. That being said, Owen's protests here really remind me a lot of Shocking Moments when he got mislynched. It feels towny af to me personally.
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For now, I'm going to leave my vote on Owen. He's in my PoE pool and he looks like one of the most likely options for a lynch today.
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I have to go offline for a bit but I'll be back later. For now, Banana is town to me and I'm not interested in lynching Lunatic or Cerulean, and am very reluctant to lynch Earth merely on the basis of him being a Miller.
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@ILikePie5
Also, Mafia Universe literally says this:
A more powerful version of this role is one that only roleblocks actions used by players of the opposite alignment to that of the target (or the Rolestopper, in some versions). This version is usually mafia-aligned. Sometimes, the Rolestopper is unable to block any kills, in which case it is commonly referred to as an Asceticiser.
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@ILikePie5
Context Strengthener and no one died in the flight please. Explain it to me like I’m five years old. Cause I don’t see it at all. And the fact I’ve asked 5 people and no one has explained it is astonishing.
I literally provided you with the exact quote from Moozer himself where he explained it. I agree that it's fairly weak, but I don't think it's so weak we can immediately write it off.
Well Earth was the Self Watcher. You probably mean JoeBob. I will highlight exactly how the justification makes sense
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about this:
In the year 49 BC, Julius Caesar crossed the river Rubicon into Roman Italy. This action was all but an act of war and kick started Caesar's Civil War. Given how the year 49 BC set into motion for the future of Rome, you are the Motion Detector.
Like, come on.
All I’m asking you to do is explain.
Owen's whole justification is that the pilot's mistake sent a message to other pilots to not make the same mistake, thereby stopping them from committing the same error, which is why he is a rolestopper-inventor/legacy messenger. I just feel like the connection there is a little bit tenuous, and I'm surprised you disagree.
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@ILikePie5
I never said “it doesn’t really matter” as long as he confirms himself. What I said is his justification makes sense to me (I pointed it out) whereas Moozer’s didn’t at all. I’ve asked multiple times for people to explain how Moozer’s justification makes sense. No one has yet., not even you.
Moozer himself has already explained the justification behind his role.
To expand on the justification, due to a mishap when converting Pounds to Kilograms, the plane was significantly under fueled and thus the engines burned out. These are supposedly very hard circumstances to land a plane it, but the pilot knew of an unused military landing strip that they used in a pinch to land safely. Because of how amazing the pilots were, I’m a strengthener.
And yeah, I'll admit that it's not the strongest I've seen, but sometimes real justifications are weak. Like the justification behind you being the Motion Detector in Years Mafia. That's one of the worst justifications I've ever seen (no offense, Earth), and it was REAL.
That’s a false equivalency. Messenger isn’t an inherently town role, and my criticism was that no one asked Lunatic for his justification. It was non-existent, just like it is here with Moozer. I pointed out exactly in his PM where the justification isn’t weak, it’s relatively strong barring the Inventor piece. If he’s lying tomorrow, we lynch him.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that part. I don't think it's too weak to be real, but I don't think it's strong either. It just is.
It allows someone to make someone a Bulletproof Ascetic. That’s literally a protective role. Why tf would scum have such a role. It’s different if you think he’s lying, but we can determine that tomorrow.
That depends on the game and the mod. Rolestopper doesn't always stop lethal actions, and Owen didn't specify whether his role would or not.
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@Earth
Wat? Why would confirming his role mean anything to you?
That's exactly what I'm wondering. This feels all wrong coming from Pie, especially after that endgame thread.
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@ILikePie5
The rolestopper part is relatively strong. See the bold below. Inventor part, I agree with you, but it doesn’t really matter, because Owen can be confirmed tomorrow.
I believe that Owen's role does what he says it does. Inventor is easily confirmable and I don't think he'd lie about that as scum. What's ringing alarm bells for me is that you say "it doesn't really matter" as long as Owen confirms himself. Of course it matters! Justification always matters. Wasn't it you who JUST criticized the town for not asking Luna why he was a Messenger in Indian Politicians? That was an easily confirmable role.
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@ILikePie5
Mine isn’t that weak. If Banana is telling the truth, hers isn’t that weak. Same with Owen.
Okay, no. Hard disagree. I think Owen's justification is quite weak. The pilot made a mistake which sent a message for others to learn from, and that's why he's a messenger? It's not impossible, but it's hardly what I would call a strong justification. I also don't really understand how it connects to him being a rolestopper inventor. The fact that you don't see this justification as being weak while also scumreading Moozer to Hell and back feels very weird to me.
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@Owen_T
Sorry about the confusion. I can give someone the ability to rolestop once every night by giving them an invention
So, what you're saying is that giving someone the invention turns them into a rolestopper? Is that how it works?
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@Owen_T
@iamanabanana
Because the cause of the accident was pretty obvious but ECAA tried to block the NTSB from finding probably cause. NTSB says it was a pilot suicide, and the ECAA said it was due to mechanical failure of pitch control surfaces.
Okay, I find that believable.
To be clear, Owen, you can only rolestop someone once and that's it?
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@iamanabanana
I am Egypt Air Flight 990
Justification for being a roleblocker?
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@iamanabanana
I am a role blocker, not a role stopper, but it looks like I can just directly stop someone's role at night, where he can give someone else the ability to do that if I am understanding correctly. So I guess it is kind of different, but still feels a little too close to the same to me.
A rolestopper stops a player from being acted on; your role prevents a player from acting. I don't think it's necessarily impossible that both roles could be in the same game and both be given to town players, but I don't like it either. Since you've claimed your role, however, no reason not to claim your character at this point. What flight are you?
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@iamanabanana
is it common for two of the same role to be in a game? Because owen is claiming my role... Kind of...
That's a pseudo-CC (counter-claim). You should claim now if you think your role contradicts Owen's claim.
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@Owen_T
Air France flight 447. The flight crashed due to pilot incompetency. The plane was losing speed, and started to fall. The pilot could have recovered by going down to gain speed, but instead, he pulled up, stopping the plane and killing all passengers. Therefore, I am a rolestopper-inventor. I'm not sure where the inventor part comes in.
Interesting. Can you paraphrase what Austin says your role does?
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@whiteflame
@Owen_T
At this point, I think I'm more willing to push Owen for a claim than Luna. I can see the basis for the latter, but the pattern I'm seeing from Owen (as Cerulean has pointed out) is more troubling.
Actually, I agree. While I was initially very unhappy about Luna's aggressive response, I think him being a bit drunk at the time does help to explain it, and his responses from this morning feel genuine and towny to me. I'd like to reread Indian Politicians DP1 to see if there really is a difference in Moozer's behavior, but for now, I don't think pushing Owen for a claim is a bad idea at all.
Unvote
VTL Owen
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@iamanabanana
I am not the best at this I hope this post was somewhat coherent, and again I apologize about my inactivity.
Actually, I think that was a great reads post. It pretty clearly explains how you read everyone's behavior and provides your own PoE pool.
Personally, I have more of a null read on Cerulean. I have only played one game with him before, but I know he's experienced. Nothing he has said so far gives me scum vibes, but nothing makes me feel like he's definitely town either. Without having seen him as scum before, I don't have any scum games to compare his behavior with.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
We can afford to get one more claim from someone. We need to quickly decided whether that’s Lunatic or Owen because we have around 24 hours left I think, and I’m going to be inactive for the rest of the night cause of Garba.
Personally, I lean towards Luna. While it's true that Owen has been posting little and has been somewhat inconsistent, I feel like that's not necessarily a scumtell for him personally like it would be for pretty much anyone else. Owen tends to just kinda follow everyone else sometimes. I would like some more input from him, but I'd really like more from Luna.
VTL Lunatic
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@Earth
I remember the Axe Attorney Redirector now.
The Axe Attorney would just like to "Axe" you a few more questions...
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@Cerulean
There was a Mafia with a 1-shot Redirector in Indian Politicians, it looks like.
Oh yeah, that's right. The Redirector in Ace Attorney was also part of a JOAT. That was the first game I modded. Earth fakeclaimed Strengthener in that game and asked me if, hypothetically, it would block a Redirector, so I think it makes sense that he would ask again here.
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@Earth
I believe it came up before recently(ish?).
The last game I remember having a Redirector was Ace Attorney Mafia, unless I'm forgetting something.
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@ILikePie5
It’s conceivable that you both could be town. Who do you want to pursue? What are your reads?
Right now, I find myself unsatisfied with Luna's behavior, for the same reasons as Moozer and Cerulean. He seems way too sure that Moozer is town imo. I'm not convinced that he's scum either, but he's more of a tilt town for me. Feels almost like he's trying too hard to push against a mislynch in order to seem less sus.
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@Cerulean
It... might also just be because "Mayday" is the word used for emergency situations like plane incidents? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday But I digress, that word is still relevant to the incident Moozer is claiming, so it's not totally inconsistent with the theme.
Well, I know Austin is Canadian and Mayday is specifically the name of the show in Canada (it's called various other names in other parts of the world), so I think my assumption is probably right. If anyone has an incident that the show didn't cover in an episode, they should speak up now.
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@ILikePie5
I think the defense of Moozer is what strikes me as odd from Casey. I don’t think I’ve seen them defend someone so vigorously and then take a 180. Though it’s possible it’s genuine. I don’t think Moozer could’ve come up with that claim on his home, so this read is more about Casey being the partner.
In all fairness, I did also sus Moozer's claim at first -- see post #94. It's only when he claimed his legacy role that I really began to change my mind.
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@Cerulean
Can someone sanity check me on if it looks like Lunatic is TMIing Moozer in this post?
Sorry, but what does TMI mean in this instance?
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@whiteflame
I’m still iffy on the Strengthener role, but the legacy role is a different story. I was initially put off by what I thought was an effort to delay claiming it, but it seems like Moozer was genuinely unsure if he could claim it based on how the role works (i.e. restrictions on what he can say about the number of people who died on the flights that are still in the game, which he may have interpreted as not being able to say anything about how it works). It also screams Austin - I could definitely see him putting this kind of mechanic in the game.
I feel much the same. Moozer's legacy role claim has me rethinking things. For now, I'll Unvote
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